Ok, I need to vent this morning. First, a tiny bit of history.<P>D-day was 10 April 1999. It was an EA/PA with the EA portion running until at least the spring of 2000. She never left home, though I spent four months in an apartment so she could "find herself". During the summer(2000), she finally committed to working on the marriage. I am now told simply that the OM is "not an issue".<P>It was our 12th anniversary yesterday and things were fine until after we went to dinner. When we came home, we ended up in an argument again about what I need for recovery. I have told her many times that the primary thing I need is for her to be honest about the things that happened after D-day. Not necessarily anything to do with OM, just what her thinking was and how it changed about me and us. Her position is that until she is getting the things she wants from me that this won't happen. Sometimes she says that it's never going to happen because she is never "going to give herself over to me again", or all I want is for her to "bare her soul" and she is not going to do that. We have been wrestling with this for months with no breakthroughs.<P>I will cut to the chase here and present her side of the argument(admittedly paraphrased, but meaning and chronological order intact).<P>- I will never be able to satisfy you<BR>- I have no idea what you want me to do<BR>- You only want me to do "one" thing<BR>- I haven't hidden anything from you<BR>- I did hide some things, but not now<BR>- I don't think I will ever tell you what you want to know, and besides, I don't think you have any business knowing that<P>Another thread that was running more or less concurrently was her saying that I "hid" things. When I asked what those were she responded that when she asks if something is wrong, even if she <I>knows</I> something is wrong, I tell her "nothing". My response was that 99 percent of the time, there is nothing, but that once in a while something about our situation will get me down. Sometimes it is thinking about her and OM. I said that I have always gotten the impression that she didn't want to hear anything about that. I asked her, "Was I wrong, do you want to hear the real reason why I might be depressed if it concerns you and OM?". She was completely silent on that.<P>This whole thing is driving me crazy and making me think often about divorce. She basically feels that it is time for me to just "forget" about what happened(the affair) and concentrate solely on the deficiencies in my character she has identified that "forced" her to have the affair(This last concept came from her therapist). If I try to express how I feel, we always end up in an argument just like the one last night. She and her mother were laughing at me during a phone call last week when MIL said "He's never going to get over this is he?". The reply was "No". The sad part of this is that I have forgiven her for the affair. I've never asked any details about OM or her relationship with him. I do truly believe that OM is not an "issue" anymore, but it certainly isn't because she has gone overboard to let me know. I have to "infer" a lot of this from her behavior(at her insistence!!!). <P>I've told her that I know she is trying to do things to make us better, but that she isn't asking me what I want or doing what she knows I want. She is deciding what <I>she</I> thinks I need or should have, and expecting me to be satisfied and eternally grateful. I am so frustrated that we cannot resolve this issue and move forward.<P>Anyway, just tell me I'm nuts and I will have myself committed. Sorry about the vent, just needed to right now.<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne - sounds like what I expect from my wife if she ever decides to work on the marriage. You're not the one that's nuts. I'll take a stab and guess that she's still in denial. That's why OM "is not an issue." Has she ever admitted the affair, or is she stuck on compartmentalizing it away from your pre-existing marriage problems, making it into two issues? Sounds like she has never acknowledged the affair was wrong, or really wants to go back to it, or it's still in progress and she's reluctant to withdraw. Has she ever broken contact completely with OM? If you're not sure, assume she hasn't. She's not playing like she's committed to your marriage.<P>Hopefully, you'll get some replies from former WSs who may have better advice.<P>WAT

DeWayne<BR>I agree with Worthatry, she is not fully there, you are not crazy although many of us believe at one time or another that stock in a mental institution would be a great idea. I think she is still in a fog. Have you read the books, His needs Her needs and all of the others recommended by other post. There are so many wise ones that will be able to give solid advice. I will just say I am sorry you had to join us. Stick around here and you will see many simularities and always have a sounding board. Sounds as if she is still rationalizing the A. By the way the BS is never to blame for an A. There are always other choices the WS could have made. Good Luck Jenni

<B>WAT -</B> Yes, she did admit to the affair two days after it became a PA. And, yes, I believe that she is making it "two" issues. I do admit that I had a "starring" role in the problems we had that led to this, but I did have a "co-star". It's just that she doesn't want her name on the credits.<P>She has admitted that the affair was a "mistake" on two occasions(it was a "big mistake on the second occasion), but only after I told her I was hurt because she never acknowledged that an affair was the wrong way to solve our problems.<P>"No contact" is not an issue here. They work together and I never asked her for that. I believe that "romantic" contact is no longer there, but I don't know if it died because she really wanted to come back to the marriage or that he, in some way, made himself unattractive to her.<P>I'm not sure that it's a "commitment to the marriage" issue. This is the type of problem we have been plagued with for years. I just don't know how to get around it. Thanks for responding.<P><B>Jenni - </B>I haven't posted an original note for a while, but I could be considered an "old-timer" here. My first post was in June of 1999. You are right there are many wise old owls here and I have come to depend on that. If it weren't for the people here, W and I wouldn't even be at this point now, we would have been divorced for a year or so.<P>Part of what I see as the problem is my W's absolute refusal to understand what happens to <B>both</B> spouses during and after an affair. She only seems to want to understand how she feels and why. She does want me to feel good about things, but doesn't see that it's any of her responsibility to help me in that direction. It appears to me that she wants to "decide" what I need to get better rather than discuss it with me. I love what Dr. Phil told a betrayed wife(on Oprah's show). He told her, "He(husband) got you into this mess and by God, he can help you get out of it".<P>I think that there are parts of what happened that are very painful for her. I have told her that I think this to be true and can understand that. I'm not asking for details about her and OM, which she considers "none of my business" and "prying", so I don't understand her recalcitrance(sp?).<P>I know that the BS is never "responsible" for an affair. Unfortunately that is not her view. I've been given the impression that she was "helpless" to avoid this because I made her do it.<P>I just want to break this deadlock that has hindered us for many months now. Good luck to you, too...<P>

Hey, Oldtimer!! <P>Thought I might find you somewhere today!!<P>Oh, well, no advice I haven't said already, so I just popped in to say "hi". <P>Talk to you soon.<P>Luv ya!<P>Sis

Hey DeWayne,<BR>Sorry to hear you are struggling with recovery. Are you guys in joint counseling? It sounds like her counselor is "taking" her side, maybe because of how your w told her about your marriage. Maybe a fresh start counseling together would help.<P>I don't think you are crazy, anytime someone else tries to "fix" someones "problem" without knowing what needs to fixed is bound to find problems.<P>She sounds like most guys!!!!<P>Take care,<P>Bob

<B>YoungSis - </B>I certainly didn't expect to be feeling like this today!! Hi back at ya!!!<P><B>Bob - </B>Hi, old friend...You know, my situation doesn't seem as bad as most here, at least OM is out of the picture. We just can't seem to make any progress. As I said, it's been going on for months now. Actually, I made this request of her in the summer of 1999 and have reiterated it several times since. I don't know whether this is some kind of control issue(not giving me what I ask for) or whether it's just too painful for her to deal with now.<P>On the counselling issue, as you know, we tried joint work with her therapist(abject failure) in the fall of 1999. I have been asking to start again for a year now. Finally, a couple of weeks ago, she got some recommendations from her T, but she has yet to set up an appointment. She claims she wants to do it, but I think that she has some reservations. I also believe that there might be some real problems if a joint T treats us equally and not like I'm the total problem as her T did.<P>"like most guys"...Thanks for the needed laugh...<P>

I laughed out loud at Bob's comment!!!!! Just too true!<P>(I rather like the youngsis thing too!!!)<P>We gotta find another approach, I think. Oohh.....I have an idea, may not work. Remember the stuff at the end of Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue book? She likes Dr. Phil (ok, when it serves the purpose), but that may be one way to talk to her. Start with her, letting her take the lead...ease into you. Ok, Ok, I know, not very creative, but damn, I'm fresh out of ideas here. And it does mean putting you off again sorta, kinda, but, hey, we got to give this every shot, right?<P>Ok, back to being quiet now.<P>Luv ya!

Way I see one issue, and pretty much how the good doc here also seems to approach it, is that you guys are married. Anything you ever did or have ever done becomes the other person's business. <BR>My marriage had a big problem with honesty as well, I finally realized that I wasn't honest to my W about how ****ty she was treating me, and she wasn't honest about anything she does or when she has a problem somewhere. Then there's the affair, but that's a different post. <P>Personally I think some of the articles are right, to rebuild all this stuff there's going to have to be complete honesty, and I particularily like the part that justifies snooping into other peoples things and business. Secrets just aren't good.

Hi DeWayne,<P>I have a zillion thoughts banging around in my head at the moment, but unfortuneately I don't have very much time to respond to you.<P>One being, are you perhaps getting too caught up in the past? What's done is done, right? Why does it matter so much what was going on in her head about you guys while she was involved in the A?? Are you fearful of "making another mistake" that would catapult her into another affair?? What IS your motive here??<P>I'm still working on Relationship Rescue and one point that Dr Phil makes that has really stuck with me is that no matter what if all you talk about is your problems, then you will have a problem marriage.<P>Well, I gotta run. Hang in there, they never said it would be easy. Remember what Dr Phil said about paddling upstream???

<B>Lori - </B> Yeah, I've got to go back and re-read that part of RR, you might be onto something...<P><B>Hi Mid - </B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Anything you ever did or have ever done becomes the other person's business<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OK, maybe I like the sound of that, but you will NEVER convince W of that. She is supported in this by her therapist. An example of that was when we were in joint counseling with this person last fall(1999), I tried to get to the bottom of what was going on currently at that time. I asked in and out of therapy sessions, "What is the current status of you and OM?". At home, I was told it was none of my business, in joint sessions, the counsellor told me that, "Maybe you are asking something she cannot answer". That was real helpful.<P>One other difference we have is that I believe whole-heartedly in "lies by omission". W sees no lie unless she actually states an untruth in its entirety. She does have a tendency to play a lot of word games. You know like "the definition of is"...<P><B>Sidney - </B> So good to hear from you. I've thought about what you said about being too caught up in the past. In one way you may be right, but I see this as a way for her to reinforce simple statements like "he's not an issue" and to give me the reassuance that I get the whole truth and not get into the "lie by omission" stuff I mentioned to mid.<P>You know, I agree with Dr. Phil on almost everything. I understand the point about talking about nothing but problems, but we are pretty much in the situation of talking about everything but our problems(at least the ones that affect me).<P>I'm just trying to find a way to foster and encourage full and honest communications. If I can't find a way to completely re-connect, I might fail to see this coming again.<P>Dr. Phil said something in an interview in this month's Oprah magazine that I have really felt at times. He was talking about offering ways out of problems or to stop an argument and getting blasted. It was a definite "Phil-ism". This is it: "I offered you an olive branch and you shoved it up my a$$". I have definitely felt like that many times over the past 21 months...<P>Take care...

Hi again, DeWayne,<P>If I'm reading right between your lines, what you are simply saying is that you are insecure. Insecure about the relationship, afraid that she may not be happy, that you are not enough for her and there might be a repeat performance. What I sense here is plain and simple fear. It sounds to me like you are trying to get this need met inadvertantly by obsessing on talk about the affair. Have you told her how you really feel? That you are feeling insecure in her love and commitment? Have you told her exactly the types of behavior that would make you feel more secure? I emphasize behavior here. Talk is cheap. Try to focus on the here and now, and think about what she does that makes you feel good about the relationship. Then reinforce that behavior! Tell her, "it makes me feel loved when you..." And don't forget, that feeling of love and security goes both ways. Commit little acts of kindness towards her.<P>Hang in there, DeWayne. You've already come a long, long way. You'll get there.

<B>Sidney - </B>My dear, dear friend, can you spell r-i-g-h-t o-n?? I had just had some vague thoughts in that area, but you have just described <I>exactly</I> how I feel!!! <P>I will think about this some more and respond more a bit later...I'm at work and I'm being interrupted by people who think I should earn my living!!!

Hey, Dwayne,<P>I hope you feel better from the vent. This place has been a Godsend to each of us over the years, hasn't it? Better than some of the other devious things I used to think of to relieve my stress and tensions! ;D<P>Anyway, here's hoping to better and happier times for 2001.<P>Take care,<P>RMA/Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi, DeWayne..you know I love you, but I'm<P>Popping in here to say hello to Desiree!<P>Hi, Honey, how've you been doing? Good to hear from you.<P>A great 2001 for all of us!<P>Love,<P>Lori

Hey Stranger!!! <P>Now, this is what I like to see - everyone hard at work, venting that leads to clarification of something, with positive help and "aha" moments!!!<P>And Sidney.....your rollin' for him, so I will just visit!!! OK, and add a splash of "coming along nicely" optimism that our Heartpain loves getting "hit about the face" with from me!! <P>Another thread with familiar names. (Hi RMA - I cringed on the "over the years" line in your post!!! Hard to believe that it HAS been "years" for us, huh?) Ooooooh, I have goosebumps!!! LOL!!!<BR>It's just like the "days of yore"!!! (being a "writer" I figure you'll appreciate that phrase DeWayne") LOL!!<BR> <BR>I miss you guys.....All we need now is Medic to come around.....then we've got a new script in the making....<P>A better 2001 to all of you and would someone please tell my hand to stop writing 2000 on everything for goodness sakes!!!! LOL!!!<P>BIG HUGS and love ya,<P>Sheba

Oh boy, I cant really add anything to what has already been said. It is too much like my own situation. Honesty is such an important value to me and i have simpley not been able to come to terms with the fact that when "in the fog", or even trying to recover the WS will simply deny, obfuscate or lie. His view is "lets get on with life"; mine is "I need to know you are not lying to me anymore" and he goes into defensive mode and i go into retreat. Not a good sign for recovery possiblities. Wishing you well.<P>R

<B>Sidney - </B>Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Yeah, I <I>am</I> insecure. Insecure about our marriage, whether or not she is truly becoming happy deep down, whether it's going to happen again. All of these things.<P>I don't think that I am "obsessing" about on talk about the affair. I am more interested about what happened after. How and why her feelings changed, etc. It comes more to her opening herself up a little to let us reconnect and re-establish communication. These are the only things that will prevent a repeat of this episode.<P>I have talked to her about things she can do to help me to feel better. The problem is that she is making the decisions as to what will make me feel better. This isn't going to work.<P>Yes, talk is cheap, but neither talk nor actions are convincing alone. You(I) need both. Each should reinforce the other. For her, I have been "committing" an extraordinary number of little acts of kindness towards her. She has gotten these things the entire time we've been together. Her personality is much more repressed in this department. She believes less in demonstration than inference, that is, I should be able to "infer" her feelings by the way she acts. The problem is that she acted in many of the same kind and affectionate ways while the affair was in full bloom. In truth, she does also commit little acts of kindness, but there is always a 10000 pound elephant in the room with us. It has got to go.<P>Both of us have come a long way, but there is a barricade in the road right now that seemingly cannot be moved or detoured around.<P>I thank you for your caring and concern. Without you and a few others here, I couldn't have come this far.<P>Love you...<P><B>Desiree - </B>Wow!! Long time since I've heard from you!! How are you? Guess I've been remiss and not sent you and e-mail earlier.<P>Yes, this place is a Godsend. Wish I could get Susan here. I hope all of us(including yourself) receive your wishes for 2001.<P>Lots of love your way...<P><B>Sis - </B>Yeah, just like a sister, you just use me for who I know. <P><B>Sheba - </B> Thanks for showing up...You know, that "splash of ... optimism" just doesn't have the same "smack in the face" if it doesn't come from you...<P>You know, with getting responses from you, Lori, Sidney and Desiree, it's like old times. It's amazing how many "old" friends you meet in the dining room of the "old folks home".. <P>Big hugs and love to you, too...<P><B>Rosebrook - </B> The "youngster" of the bunch!! <P>You have expressed how I feel. After a lull of saying it, W started again telling me that "OM is not an issue". Since she told me this the entire time things were "going on", my response has been "When did this start being the truth since you've said this since D-day and we both know for a fact it wasn't true for at least a year?".<P>I'm not sure, but from her words and actions(or lack of), I think she believes that all we have to do is ignore what happened, just work on what <I>she</I> saw as the failings in the marriage and everything will be OK. Well, she's one-third right. We cannot just ignore the aftermath of the affair and we also need to consider my feelings and needs, too. If I could just get her in that frame of mind, things would work out wonderfully. As it is, we are still teetering on the divorce fence. Probably me more than her.<P>Thanks for the good wishes and a whole bunch right back at 'ya....<P>--DeWayne--