Sigh!. . .<P>thanks for not saying that I'm a jerk for being so. . .angry. . .I was afraid that I would be offensive. I don't want to be. Thanks for being understanding and kind in your reply.<P>I count myself as being a Christian, too, trying my hardest to live a life as Christ modeled for us. I have tried so hard to turn the other cheek, to pray for those who hurt me. I want so much to be loving. I do love my husband, still, very much, as much as the day I married him. Yeah, the in-love thing, too, aside from the sex part. (That part--well, I dunno. . .I think the damage has been done) anyways, I doubt this love is reciprocated.<P>And I am a relatively laid back, easy-going person. I a non-agressive almost to a fault.<P>But I find myself using OW as a punching bag. I have not bad-mouthed her to her face since the day I sent those e-mails, in fact, I have not communicated with her at all (except for sending the URL for this web-site.) But to my husband, yeah, I have worked really hard at pointing out to him exactly how I see her. He rarely comments back. He doesn't talk about her at all. But he does get angry when I say something about her. <P>When I ask him the age-old questions: What is it that she DID for you? What does she have that I didn't have? She's prettier than me? Skinnier than me? More professional than I am? (snort!) The sex. . .how could it be better than what WE had? Did you ever think about me once while you were. . ." (okay, I guess this train of thought is bordering on what you all were heatedly discussing earlier, sorry.)<P>But he clams up. Or actually, changes the subject and yells at me.<P>I think, if I might give a bit of advice, the more honest you are about your friend, while adhering to your friend's right to privacy, the easier it might be for your wife to see her as a good person, the way you see her. Saw her. It might prevent the poison from creeping into your wife's mind the way it has for me. No secrets. No mysteries. Easier to forgive. Does that make sense?<P>

Ivory,<P>You said you will have to leave your career. Why would people outside of you, your wife and a friend or two have to know? We told our priest and a couple of family members figured it out. All told it was 5 people who I know would not share that info. Is a career change really necessary and why would it have to be public knowledge? People make mistakes. We can be forgiven for those mistakes. I believe there have been pastors on this board who have had an A and not left their career. <BR>just a thought...<BR>cleo

About the career, I only would want to say that it's a possibility, even if only a few know. I would probably initiate it...that's why it would happen. It's a situation where it would be best not to take the chance that by some other means some other time the facts would come out, and the wrong for not having done the best thing at the time the A happened would be double so.<P>Thanks for your concern.<P>About restoration to ministry, I heard this statement once: restoration is possible when the repentance is as notorious as the sin. Pretty good and pretty accurate. Repentance is twofold: the initial act of repentance and the test of time. The passage of time, and ONLY that, is the proof of repentance, and time can't be speeded up. In time, therefore, restoration is possible.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cleopatra:<BR><B>Why would people outside of you, your wife and a friend or two have to know? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Read back over the history here. Ivory's OW's H knows about the affair, and laid down an ultimatum threatening broad disclosure that precipitated Ivory's coming confession. But the OW is planning to leave her husband anyway, and stay in Ivory's hometown while the her husband moves 3 hours away. I'm sure her rejected husband will assume that the affair is continuing, blame Ivory for the breakup of his marriage, and mount a campaign to publicize the affair in any way that will hurt Ivory.<P>Ivory is probably wise to circle the wagons.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>The only thing I don't understand is if all of you who posted prior to right now missed the first sentence where I said I would, in fact, answer all of her questions. I appreciate everyone taking the time to weigh in on this, but I do understand the point you're trying to make.</B><P>Well, for my part, I posted a few minutes after you "conceded the point", and was probably writing when yours went up. But, in retrospect, I think I wouldn't have changed my post.<P>Maybe it is just a misread of your tone, but it sounds to me like you haven't really capiched the whole honesty thing, and want to move on to whether you should put Burt Bacharach or James Taylor on when you tell your wife. None of your catering plans are going to matter if you don't commit to the honesty thing heart and soul, no matter how painful.<P><B>Suffice it to say that not all experts agree on this issue, but that's irrelevant.</B><P>Why do I question your commitment to honesty?<P>I think in your place, I would be asking this crowd for a "frequently asked questions" list and working on my responses, rather than the mood and the setting.<P>How are you planning to answer the following questions:<P>What is the OW's name?<P>Does her spouse know?<P>WHo else knows?<P>How long has this been going on?<P>How many times were you together with her?<P>Where?<P>What did you do sexually?<P>Did you use protection?<P>etc..... <P>How are you going to start, Ivory? What are your first three sentences going to be?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

Well Ivory,<P>You're holding up pretty well here considering. Whoever said that the lies that were told to the BS were worse than the actual infidelity was right on!<P>I actually asked a lot of questions, and Thank God got a lot of answers. It helped a lot that he said his OW "would not stand out in a crowd"..."has smaller breasts than me", ect. We women compare, don't know why, it just seems to be our nature, so try to answer some of her questions with a favorable light towards your wife. Now, I did offer this advice to someone else in your shoes once and was told by another betrayed wife that it would have hurt her to be compared to OW even if it was favorably. Guess you can be the only judge of this.<P>p.s. the fact that my husband had trouble maintaining an erection (am I allowed to say that?) with OW didn't hurt my self-esteem much either.<P>I want to disclose, since my post seems like everything worked out...that it didn't. H is now with OW#2 and is still very foggy, but other than refusing to give me OW's name...he did really help me out by telling me the truth most of the time. Sometimes he would preface his comment with..."this is going to hurt"...at which time I'd dig my nails into the palm of my hand. I would also tell him to stop when I'd had enough. Be gentle Ivory, this is tough stuff as you know...try to touch her and hold her hand if you can...<P>allison

To Mike:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How are you planning to answer the following questions.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Honestly.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe it is just a misread of your tone, but it sounds to me like you haven't really capiched the whole honesty thing, and want to move on to whether you should put Burt Bacharach or James Taylor on when you tell your wife. None of your catering plans are going to matter if you don't commit to the honesty thing heart and soul, no matter how painful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you absolutely did misread my tone. You are wrong about the "catering" (what an ugly inferrence, Mike).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are your first three sentences going to be?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I expect to start with something like this: "As we both know, we are in a difficult time in this marriage. You have wondered about my moodiness of late. We've talked about it. I am hopeful that we can get better, but unfortunately it's going to have to get worse before it can get better, and the worst thing I can tell you is that I have had an affair."<P>Allison:<P>Thanks for the words. I'll help her through it in any way she seems to be willing to let me. I know it will be rough. <P>Ivory<P><p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Ivory,<P>I think I missed the part about the OW leaving H and staying in town. I understand now why you would need to tell people. I was posting under the impression that she was moving and H would not be exposing anything. I have a better understanding now of why you feel that you may have to leave your career. I am glad that you have chosen to reveal things to your wife despite the surrounding circumstances.<P>cleo

Cleopatra,<P>Perhaps it is helpful if I explain that H desires to protect OP ---including even if she does not move--- by not exposing the A publicly. He can't go after me without also failing that. If he did decide to do it two bad things would happen: (1) he would for sure lose his wife and (2) he would embarrass her publicly as well as risk embarassing their two sons. For their sake, he does not want to risk any of those things. <P>OP's leaving her husband is not for certain yet. Perhaps you did not read where they have had problems considerably prior to the A, so whatever happens would not be only as a result of bilge from the A.<P>Ivory<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Wow Ivory. You've got guts. I'll give you that.<P>The fact that sticks in my craw is from the first page of your responses. I would click to put it in here, but I don't know how, so I'll paraphrase. W has seen your mood, and chosen to be cheerful and in this marriage despite your mistreatment.<P>What i should continue to stress it that this is the very reason your wife may not react as you think. I knew my marriage was strained. My H did not talk to me and took great pains to be away from home on trips as much as possible. when he was home, he drank to hide. When I found out about the A, i was shocked because i felt I had been doing as much as I could to repair the marriage without any success, and to find out that he had checked out already and had not even willing to give me a chance to address any problems in the marriage, before he found(and fell in love with)someone else. His started with no regrets either. He had left me(in his heart and mind) long before the OW came into his life. But he refused to see it. <P>The fact that I could be so faithful and take so much mental abuse and put up with all the crap I had put up with just to have him stick his wick elswhere, Wow-----the rage comes pretty easily still. Sorry Ivory I didn't know that ws still there!!!!Abandonment is the severest of mental abuse along with the fact that no action was ever taken to repair your marriage before it went on to another woman. This too is abandonment. <P>The rage is big, and the fear and panic, mistrust---a shattering of a dream, an innocence if you will, of the marriage and what it is supposed to stand for. Violation to the spirit and to the body(once she realizes you slept with her during the A period.) And the physical nausea that comes with the mental images that invade her brain in a rush--that is where all the questions will come from. <P>Be gentle and do not raise your voice in response to these questions. My H did not want to tell me the details and spit every answer at me, just making it as painful as possible so I wouldn't ask any more. If you can, try not to tell her that you don't love her anymore, or that the passion is gone---this is the worst thing. It is the death of all one thinks to be yours by right and hard work. And it is handed back to you pulverised on a platter.<P>I am not saying you are here in this place. You are willing to tell her and do no contact. My H won't give her up, and I discovered the incongruities that led to my guessing the truth. He did not want me to know. Then he wanted me to throw him out, so he did not have to deal with the pain, guilt, shame etc of his actions. I did not do that, to my surprise. I have not done it yet. But it has been six months and his alcoholism is making him a piece of jello--he can't contribute to any decision. She must be furious too. I wish she would dump him!!<BR>Good luck on Friday. And don't get drunk before you tell her!

Good luck to you - tomorrow is fast approaching! It has been one year since finding out about my H's PA and it has been one hellish year!<P>God Bless you and your W!<P>------------------<BR>"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

Ivory,<P>It sounds to me like you are planning very well. I would second K's suggestion to have a session with Harley, your W may readily agree w/out knowing what's coming.<P>I was the one who had set up the session as he had already been telling me how unhappy he was. He told Jenn Harley first and she prepared me a little for what I was about to hear. Then she was available Sat. am. (it too was Fri nite) for me to talk afterwards. This was very helpful.<P>It seems you understand that you can be loving even if you don't feel much love for your W right now. Prepare for a long night. M h told me, talked for an hour, then went to sleep. He felt relieved, I was devastated.<P>If you have already been expressing your unhappiness in the marriage, she will finally know what is REALLY going on. There was anger and even some relief to know I wasn't the problem after hearing that I was for over a month.<P>The thing about honesty is this: you have been lying to her now for how long? It wasn't just telling me details. When I saw he was ready to be really open, it helped me to believe he was completely changing his behavior. He told me about the A he was trying to get out of (is that easier than to keep saying you're not out if the no contact is not yet in stone?). He also told me of a previous one with a woman I know when I asked if he had been faithful the rest of the marriage.<P>As a BS, I was left to reconstruct the last 18 months of my life and wonder who this man next to me was...I'm not sure you can really have an idea of how devastated she will feel.<P>He became an open book; turned all e-mails and chats over to me to read if I wanted. I did. We then sent a no contact letter from both of us stating the fact I had read all the mails and was now monitoring the account.<P>The explicit sexual details can be harmful, but none of this is private. Your W was a part of your life while you were engaging in adultery. The what, when is all critical for her to put the pieces of the puzzle together.<P>Then it will be up to her whether or not she wants to rebuild with you...<P>

Whew, On page 3 of this thread Mike C2 responded to a question that I asked you. He said that OW was planning on leaving her H and staying in town. He also said that OW's H would probably mount a campaign against you. Didn't you say, at one point, that the H threatened to expose you? Maybe I am on information overload. I am sorry. <P>I think your thread has taken on a life of its own.<BR>cleo

Ivory:<P>You seem to feel as though you've taken a "pummeling" on the board. Kudos to you for continuing to come back and think through issues and answer questions. It shows strength of character, and you're going to need a lot of that in the days ahead.<P>I'm genuinely sorry if you feel a little picked on. I don't think it's the intention of anyone here to do so, but since the place is mostly populated by BSs, the WS can occasionally be lonely. Believe me, as a WS, I know. Leilana in particular zinged me one day with a post that I STILL remember. And she was completely right to do so.<P>It might be hard to understand, given where you are emotionally, but if you can, think of this board as a kind of huge, impersonal AA/Al-Anon meeting. Virtually all of the folks here are "dry", either in the sense that they're the victims of an addiction (their spouse's A) or they are WSs who are far enough into withdrawal that they're willing to seek this place out.<P>In this context, you've just wandered in to the meeting with a good healthy buzz on, reeking of beer (metaphorically and all). You know in your heart that you want to change, but you're not sure how yet, and the monkey's still on your back. And we can all see it, because we've all seen it before in ourselves and in our loved ones. <P>Now I know you and the OW have ended the affair, you haven't spoken for a few days, and you're going to tell your wife. Don't get me wrong, those are all GREAT things from the perspective of putting your marriage back together, and everyone here respects you for them, knows the courage that it takes, and is really hoping for you to succeed.<P>But, being "dry", some of us (myself included sometimes, I'm sure) can be brusque with those who are still "under the influence". It's not intended to be a personal attack, but just a way of trying to penetrate the "fog", to give you the benefit of our sore-won experience as best we can. Sometimes, some of us may feel that a somewhat sterner tone is required, particularly when it's about something really important, such as being completely honest and transparent with your W.<P>Anyway, I was feeling bad that you were feeling bad. Believe me, I've been where you are (at leat in a general sense) and know how difficult it can be. Hang in there, Ivory. When you can, try hard to listen and process what people are saying to you. There are a lot of really wise people on this board (most wiser than me), and they've all got the experience edge on you in this area, you know?<P>Take care, good luck!<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cleopatra:<BR><B>Whew, On page 3 of this thread Mike C2 responded to a question that I asked you. He said that OW was planning on leaving her H and staying in town. He also said that OW's H would probably mount a campaign against you. Didn't you say, at one point, that the H threatened to expose you? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was basing my info on what Ivory had posted last week (link below) but, of course, he would have more updated info.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007020.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007020.html</A> <P>

I've been trying to think of what bothers me about the circumstances of Ivory's decision to tell his W. After giving it some thought, I feel that I can elucidate it: he is doing this more on the bequest of the OW and alleged threats from the OW's H than he is because he wants to do the right thing w/ respect to his W and marriage. That bothers me a lot, because it projects a sort of insincerity on this confession. It is therefore more about and for the and the EMR than the W and the marriage.<P>To you, Ivory: I also believe that this is a very manipulative maneuver on the part of the OW here ... whoa, this woman has to be a real piece of work to convince you to tell your W. I want to stand up and throw roses. Hon, look ... she *wants* your wife to kick you out, and is anticipating it. That's why she wants you to tell your W, not out of some sense of duty. Please. I mean, who on this board has ever heard of an OP urging the WS to tell the BS about the EMR, unless they were going to get something out of it? Like, the BS?<P>Sorry, Ivory. I don't buy the OW's motivation on this one. She's playing you like a nickel slot machine. When a woman wants another woman's husband, she will do anything to get him. Sad thing is, I feel that if your W doesn't kick you out, OW's going to up the pressure and find a way to get in touch with the W and rub her nose in it until the poor woman goes bonkers. Ivory, she is not staying behind in the same town for nothing. My guess is that she'll be laying her snare Friday night, in hopes that your W will throw you out and you'll end up on her doorstep. <P>Do you want to be manipulated like that? If you don't, tell you wife *everything,* validate every feeling she has about the EMR and the OW, and follow Harley's plan for recovery to the letter. If your marriage is really what you want, that is. I'm still trying to figure out if it is what you want, though ... I still see you blinded by the fog.<P>belld

dupe<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR>[b]I expect to start with something like this: "As we both know, we are in a difficult time in this marriage. You have wondered about my moodiness of late. We've talked about it. I am hopeful that we can get better, but unfortunately it's going to have to get worse before it can get better, and the worst thing I can tell you is that I have had an affair."</B><P>That's pretty good.<P>My use of the word "catering" was just in reference to the food, mood, setting questions you were putting forth. I apologize if that came off as demeaning. I do think you should use this group to deal more with the Q&As you can expect.<P>What if she says "Why are you telling me now?"<P>

Belldandy,<P>Whoever said I wasn't blinded by the fog? Of course I am blinded by the fog. What would you have me do---hang around with OP until the fog lifts? Oh sure....that'll work. <P>When driving in fog, one goes to the limit of one's headlights, but then--funny thing--there's more road when you do that! So one keeps going. That's all the heck I know to do. Got a better answer? <P>Do you folks want me to quit feeling in love with OP before I do anything about the A? Do I quit the A, mope around a bunch of weeks trying to recover, then confess to my wife? Am I 100% certain that I want the marriage to work? You know, I might not be...in my heart. But then again, I'm in a fog. However, I am willing to try my best to go one step at a time. Point A to Point B to Point C. At least I think I am. <P>Look, everybody...I'm not exactly thrilled about any of this. Everytime I come onto this board it is an act of the will, not the heart. I force myself to participate. I acknowledge that an advanced level of brokenness would be helpful to the cause, but don't equate any absence of that that you may think you detect with a lack of willingness to be honest, forthright, patient, gentle, and whatever else I cn be for my wife. <P>The withdrawal is severe, just like it is said to be by the Harleys. Would you have me say otherwise, if I am into this honesty factor? Am I to be less honest on this board than with my wife? Am I to try and guess what each person hopes to see in my heart as I write and see if I can concoct the perfect, please-everyone reply, or display the properly-contrite attitude? I think most of would agree upon the answers to those questions.<P>Those of you who are BS's...do you wish your husband had been doing this prior to his confessing to you? isn't it better than nothing? isn't it some attempt, even if a few of you think it lame, to force upon myself the absorption of some concepts? Isn't there some advantage to have this stuff located at some place inside my brain as I try to deal with my wife?<P>Mike:<P>No problem. I definitely don't intend to try and set up a mood. I wouldn't insult my wife that way, despite the fact that I have cheated on her. As to your question, what I would say if she asked, "Why are you telling me now." Actually, I might say that everybody on MB told me I needed to! But in complete honesty I'd also have to say that it's not right that OP's H knows and she doesn't know.The only fair thing for everyone is that the issue be rvealed and ealt with, however that might mean. I think I would say that at some point people have to move off-center, and we can't continue to go on the way things have been. Whether we end up still married or not, we have to confront this.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Ivory,<BR>My H confessed his long-denied, not-ended affair almost 2 years ago. My initial reaction was along the lines of "I knew it!" and relief that I was not crazy. That first afternoon all I really wanted to know was who she was (a co-worker I had met once, so I didn't have the physical description questions), how long it had been going on, and what he was going to do.<P>I think he told me hoping I'd divorce him and make it easy for him. I did not. I cried a bit, but for me, was very calm...and I turned his comforting hug into passion. Most people don't react like that. I later got the "ick" and the need to know "the details". More than once he has said to me, "I've lied, cheated and been a ******* and am terribly sorry, what more do you really need to know?"<P>He resumed the affair a couple times after that, discovery grew increasingly uglier until I was the one who served D papers. But, we've been back together 8 months now, and it is nearly 3 years since it all began. <P>If you don't end it with the OW, or your wife, you risk losing them both.