Well, I set myself way back on the geologic timescale with this one. Couldn't help it, knew I screwed up the second I did it. Just when I thought we were making progress.<P>My wife called last night and started fussing about our son's upcoming school exams. She said he ought to be studying everynight this week and will you please get him going, blah, blah, blah (you incompetent father! - the way I took it). This really got under my skin. I just listened to her for a minute being very specific about what he ought to be doing for his preparations. Finally, I couldn't take it any more and I said, "You sure are being concerned now after having abandoned your son." Utter silence. Then, "How dare you!" More utter silence. Then the volcanic reaction: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!!!!!!. Needless to say, she was totally PO'd. I hung up, knowing I had LB'd big time. I called her back 20 minutes later and asked if we could talk. She said, "NO!" Then she ranted and raved for a minute about how if she was in the house and had the au pair to help her things would be different. I responded that SHE made the decision to leave. She countered with her standard "You abused me" rationale. (What she calls abuse were my sometime angry outbursts in frustration because she didn't put any effort into our marriage and would she prefer that I leave?) Then she hung up.<P>This morning there was a message from her on my office voice mail asking me to take the steps necessary to have her name removed from the mortgage (a provision in our separation agreement that she hadn't been pushing) so she can get her own house and have a place for our son to call home. I sent her an e-mail immediately, apologizing for the uncalled for statement and saying I still loved her and wanted to work on our marriage.<P>Coincidentally, I had an appointment with Steve this morning and we discussed it at length. Yup, major LB, but he tried to have me put it in context with the rest of my otherwise good Plan A. I feel like my wife will cling to this as an escalation of tension and further confirmation that she shouldn't work on the marriage and proceed to divorce.<P>Thoughts?<P>Dave (WAT)

Don't beat yourself up over it. Don't keep apologizing to her either. I do that, I say I am sorry over & over.<P>I bite my tongue & managed not to LB but more later or Mon on that. <P>It is late here & this screen is blurring, but someone has to wait up for OS. <P>Ease off yourself, okay.<BR>

Thanks, sing - but I'm really down about this and I feel like I've self destructed.<P>WAT

Have you tried putting your regret into a few perfect words on a card attached to a whole lot of flowers. Sometimes the old silly ways work.

Dave,<P>I'm sure you have gone over this at length with Steve, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. I know that this has you down, been there myself. I am sure that if you give it some time, it will get better. Both how you feel about it, and her state of mind following the episode.<P>You hit a big nerve with your statement. Yes LB, but it isn't going to erase everything that you've done so far. I am sure that she knows there is truth to this, and hence her reaction. She is still not committing to the marriage, and thus is also still hanging onto the rationale for leaving it.<P>The whole thing about taking her name off the mortgage is a reaction to being upset over this. Mine does stuff like that too, and whenever she enters her nasty state, she manages to drudge up something to support her concept of moving on, like last week, telling me "by the way, I'm changing my last name on some things".<P>I think that ultimately she will settle into steady state again, and this isn't going to suddenly mean that she is heading for divorce. It feels like it now, but one event like this isn't going to do that. You still have all the qualities that you have. That hasn't changed. So you told the truth, sometimes it hurts.<P>Please don't beat yourself up over this. Sometimes things just come out, I know that. A couple of months ago I launched into a speech to my wife about how OM was a "marriage wrecking scumbag", and said many other things. She was nasty at first, but oddly enough commented later that her brother thinks we'll be back together next year at this time, and her mom will be in the house my wife has now. Things work in weird ways, and you don't know the ultimate outcome of this event. Maybe it just changes the dynamics in an unforeseen way. Who knows.<P>Anyway, I've got to go, but hang in there and just keep Plan A going and try not to focus on this. Taking the name off the mortgage means nothing, really. I'm supposed to do it too.<P>I'll be back later.<BR>

Don't be so down on yourself. If you are doing as good a Plan A as you say you are, then this LB has a better chance to wear off. You may want to wait a few more days to talk to your wife about it. Then just let her know how much it hurts being apart along with not having her there to help and you definitely had a weak moment(Check this out with Steve first...I'm no expert!). Your human and you're entitled to a few...

Thanks for the support.<P>A2 - believe it or not, my wife has never been the flower type, "Whatdidya spend money on those for?" <P>I sent her an e-mail for damage control. Here's the text:<P>"<Name>, I can't tell you how much I regret my comment to you on the phone. I know you cherish <son> as much as I do and I know it was a stupid thing to say. Of course I know you would never put <son's> well being below your top priority. It was an unplanned emotional reaction and just like other things I have learned about myself, I've already learned from this stupid mistake. You should not view this as representing an overall change in the way I treat you.<P>I have not been looking backwards at what has happened between us other than to learn from my mistakes. I have no intention of dwelling on the past and I will not use any mistakes either one of us has made as ammunition or justification for what happens in the future. So I ask that you not hold this incident over my head just as I will not hold any incidents over yours. This way we can move forward with a clean slate. <P>I wish you wouldn't make a major decision on this one mistake of mine. I'm still making improvements in myself with the help of my counselor and I think you'd agree that I have changed for the better. <Son> thinks so. But I'm not finished, my counselor has taught me how to make it a lifelong project.<P>Please, let's try to provide <son> with a complete family. I have already forgiven you for things that have hurt me. I want to understand and support you in all ways. I will continue to treat you in the respectful and loving manner that I have been notwithstanding my stupid comment. If we try and fail, at least we can go forward knowing we gave it our best shot. <P>Please tell me your thoughts. I love you and I will never abandon you.<P>Love,<BR>Dave"<BR>

Dave, don't be so hard on yourself. We all say things we later regret. I think your comment to your W was an expression of your frustration with the situation.<P>It's normal and we've ALL done it. I don't think your comment negates all the good you've been doing.<P>BTW, the e-mail you sent her brought me to tears. I hope someday she realizes how lucky she is.<P>Hang in there and don't beat yourself up.

worthatry,<P>In retrospect, when you were getting angry during the first phone call and made the remark about how your W abandoned her family, what do you think would have been a more appropriate thing to say to make your feelings known?<P>I dunno ... it might have been an LB, but you were just pointing out the obvious. She *did* abandon her child. There is nothing untrue about that statement. We rely on out mates to provide us with constructive criticism. You weren't calling her a scumbag, or another foul name, or threatening to run over her dog ... you were merely pointing out her hypocrisy.<P>If it had been me, I probably would have said something similar, only would have worded it differently. Do you regret saying what you were thinking - or the way that you said it?<P>belld

belld - thanks for the question. Most of all, I regret making her mad and provoking her to up the ante on our separation. So I guess to do it over, I would have withheld my feelings. I should have been more accomodating with her concerns about our son's exams and expressed my equal concern that he needs to prepare thoroughly. What got to me was her demanding attitude/hypocrisy. Truthfully, she abandoned him only in physical presence, not in caring about him, although she doesn't realize, I guess, that her physical absence is harmful. We both lost our other son - we both cherish our remaining son as only parents who have lost one can appreciate.<P>So, to answer your question, I regret saying what I was thinking. Is this bad?<P>Dave

Hey Dave,<P>You know, you've done Plan A much better and longer than most of us here. Lb's happen to even the healthiest couples. Give her time to simmer down. Yes, the ws does look for things that they can mark on the justification list for leaving etc.. She may put this on the list. There is nothing you can do about that other than what you have already done. Keep up your Plan A. Drag your feet a little on taking her name off the mortgage and see if she lets go of that one. <BR>I would have felt as bad as you did if I said something like that. I thought things about what kind of father my H is and even said some of them. When it comes down to it, I know that he loves his kids just as your W loves your son. <BR>Try not to bring it up anymore and move on. She may just let it go. It sounds like she's been thinking a lot lately anyway.<P>cleo

WOW what a letter!! <P>Mine tend to be something like -<P>Ilove YOU! My heart hurts and my mouth is stupid. Forgive me again!<P>Always yours,<BR>(Want some more flowers?)<P>Then sign it<P><BR>Are you sure there's nothing (!) she has a little weakness for? I think you are basicly trying to woo her anyway. So start acting like a guy trying to get a date with the "hot" chick he just met. Some times we try to hard to "win back" when just "winning" is what's called for.<P>I am an idiot though

Dave,<P>I understand how you feel! You are working so hard to say and do just the right things with no help or encouragement or feedback from her (i.e., no love bank deposits for you). That is not normal or easy for humans to do! Then when you make a little mistake (I would say the choice of words only was regrettable, the sentiment deserved to be expressed), they use it as justification for their incredibly wrong and selfish actions.<P>I'm sure you know, Dave, that her strong reaction is proof that it is a weak spot for her. She probably does feel like she has abandoned her son in a way and she hates having to face it because she has no justification for it. The worse she feels, the more she needs to blame you and get her justifications and denials back into place. I keep telling myself that a little gust of breeze every now and then to try and blow away the fog a bit or rock their denial isn't always a bad thing. Unfortunately in your case, like mine, you are the only one to "blow" because your W hasn't admitted anything about OM to others.<P>My bet is that she'll calm down, especially after your very sweet e-mail. I would "forget" to do the mortgage thing for a while and see if it blows over. She may just have needed to make a stand to keep her justifications in place.

Thanks to all for your encouraging words, but she is totally torqued. She just called a few minutes ago to speak to our son and didn't want to speak to me at all, as I expected. Before I let her speak to him, I told her I regretted what i had said and asked her to please read the message I sent her. Her reply was, "you said it, so you must have meant it. Just get my name off of the mortgage as soon as possible." After she talked to our son, I tried again to get her to talk and she simply said she didn't want to talk to me. I suggested that maybe we can talk later and she simply said goodbye and hung up.<P>My big downer is that this interupts what I thought was a positive trend. She was really starting to get closer recently.<P>Thanks again.<P>Dave

Hope you are doing a bit better. I agree with the others about stalling on the mortgage thing. Also, I just wondered if in your state, you have to reapply for the mortgage based on your income alone, and also would you require a legal separation agreement in order to be considered solo on the mortgage. Here, we generally have to be separated BEFORE they will consider you as the only person on the mortgage (at least for my wife to qualify). My wife's bank that gave her a mortgage for her house said she had to be off mine within 30 days. Actually, this is what my wife told me, so who knows if it is true. Anyway, it has been 2.5 months, I've not went ahead with it, and she hasn't said anything. I'm just laying low. Ironically, in my case, it benefits me to have her off, because there is alot more equity in this house than hers. I'm just not looking forward to going to reapply and laying everything out on the line. Probably should soon anyway. I'm babbling about my own stuff here, sorry.<P>More importantly, I hope the responses you've gotten have helped a little. To do a flawless Plan A with no LBs at all is very difficult. I think I've done my best, but I've made some too....you just can't avoid them all. Especially when you get caught by surprise. And I can understand if the tone was a demanding attitude style. About a month ago when I went into a tailspin and vented alot here, I actuallly hung up on my wife because she was being so illogical and nasty. She was mad. But got over it.<P>Now I just read your latest post. I know this stuff doesn't help you much, if at all, but you are not alone. We've been there and will be there again. The line about "you said it so you meant it" is another classic. Back around end of June, I got the maddest I ever was, and said exactly what you said but way worse. I was so disgusted that she was out all the time, and used the words "abandoned your kids", "lost your morals", " and on and on. I told her exactly how resentful I was for what she was doing. What a HUGE LB that was. That was before I found MB, and the next day, she said to me "we are not married anymore, not separated, we are nothing. You meant what you said, now I know how you TRULY feel about me." She also threatened that I'll be seeing my kids every 2nd weekend. Anyway, it all passed. After Plan A for awhile, she started at least warming up a little. Of course, you know the rest of the story....still goes nasty/nice, but I never hear of that episode anymore.<P>When we hit a soft spot like that, they go ballistic. Just like confronting when they deny. Same principle....you hit a sore spot and they retaliate.<P>I hope you just keep being like you have been for a long time in Plan A. How she is reacting up until now is not surprising. She'll calm down. Just give her time. Another way to look at it is that this is the bottom of the roller coaster again...she won't stay this upset, so it will get better, I'm sure. You know how they are. I know it affected your uptrend, but you have to focus on making another uptrend, not on this downturn.<P>Hang in there because you are so encouraging to everyone, you make us all laugh with your humour and titles, and your Plan A has been excellent. This is just one thing. She doesn't have a real plan now...and I don't think this will create a brand new one that will last. You can do other things to replace her recent memory of this. Remember, she is confused, doesn't know where she is going, and will temporarily grab onto anything such as this to obtain some direction. Just give it some time. Do something fun, have a beer and talk to a friend, watch a funny show, whatever. I wish we could do more.

Dave,<P>I know this may sound mean, but stop apologizing! You have indicated your true and heartfelt regret already. Any more apologies will just give her more fuel at this point. She's got the bit between her teeth on this and it is best to let it go. The more you apologize, the more she can blow it out of proportion.<P>I too apologize too much to my H for the few LBs that slip out and I wish someone or something would stop me so I'm trying to do it for you. Also, remember that in their fog, they can find a way to turn almost anything we say into a perceived LB so don't you blow out of proportion what you said just because she is.<P>You are one of the best plan Aers I've seen on here and also one of the best at keeping us all out of the dumps. So buck up or we'll all have to fly out and take you snowboarding!

Dave<P>Don't beat up on yourself to much. It is so very hard not to LB when that is what the WS is just dying for you to do to justify where they are at. <P>When you think back on all the good Plan A you have been doing it pales in to insignificance and you have apologised, which will go someway to making up for it.<P>We both know it takes a great deal of fortitude to keep from LBing when the WSs are literally egging you on to do so. After 4 months I thought I had it down pat, then we got in to a discussion the other day and I just couldn't help myself and LBd in a big way, similar to what you have done. I have received the same response as you plus withdrawal.<P>Remember, for all that you are giving now you will receive somewhere on the roundabout. I truly believe what goes around comes around.<P>Can you imagine, that if your W was putting in the effort you are to getting this marriage back together, how good a marriage it would be? Instead at this point in time she is pulling in an equal but opposite direction.<P>Remember the advise you have given to others which I believe is so appropriate "you are on the moral high ground".<P>Hang in there.<BR>Colin

Gee WAT, seems this was a day of putting our foot in our mouths, huh.<P>Isn't it amazing how one little phrase from our WS can set us off. And there we go..like a snowball down the hill...picking up steam as we go..obvious to the impact...and at the bottom we look around and say "now what do I do that for?"<P>For me it was a simple statement about getting the registration for my car (which is in WS's name)...I reminded him yesterday and today he said he forgot...well, I was off...(always last thing on his list, not important to him...yada...yada...yada) and once started couldn't stop...like a verbal avalanche. I was sorry when it was over...although it really wasn't as bad as I could have made it...not because I had said it but because I had LBed...over something so stupid.<BR> <BR>So don't beat yourself up...holding it in is hard...and no one is perfect...we just do the best we can.<P>I expect that WS is hanging on pins and needles most of the time to get this kind of tirade (and well they should) so when it comes it's not totally unexpected and should be understood. I know my WS is very tolerant of my outbursts...I think his quilt lets him except quite a bit as atonement for his sins. I just hate to give it to him. LOL.<P><BR>I send you Angels and Prayers and Self-Forgiveness for Your Humanity ~ Faye<BR>

Thanks everyone for your tremendous support. It's working, I'm feeling better this morning.<P>My 12 yo son is terrific! During his conversation with Mom last night, he said "Dad and I are having a really good time. We're playing video games and figuring out things, and just talking and having fun." (I had told him Mom and I had a big fight and she was SO mad at me.) He said he didn't know yet if he wanted to come to her apartment for the night and said he'd call her when he decided. About 20 minutes later he paged her (she was still at work) to say he wanted to stay with her, but she never called back. Around 9:30 he called her apartment (she should have been home by then) and there was no answer. So he came back to sit next to me on the couch and asked, "Can I sleep with you, tonight, Dad?" My heart melted.<P>Dave

Sorry your son was the real loser, but round ### to Dave, the great Dad! Your son knows that you will always be there for him, that is good.