{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Ivory}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Your situation sounds so painful for both you and your wife. And I've been there.<P>And it appears you have each other in a Catch 22. Until you aren't feeling withdrawal & are sure you can be a good H (could take months) you don't want to make promises. Until you make promises, and your wife sees some changes, she doesn't want you home. <P>It's really hard for the WS to show changes when you are separated because the BS often assumes the worst, WS still seeing the OP. The BS also becomes very vulnerable to an affair, I think especially if separated. In our case, after 5 months apart in our 7th separation, was Plan A to me during that time. I agreed to go back to counseling together & we bit the bullet and H moved home.<P>If you want your marriage, stop talking to the OW and Plan A your wife. Yeah, withdrawal sucks, but people do decent things, even when they feel crummy. If you can't cut contact & Plan A, then you are damaging your marriage further and hurting your wife. Being in limbo/staying on the fence/having your cake & blowing out the candles--whatever you want to call it--will damage or kill both your spirit and your wife's.

Lor, Contact *IS* cut...I don't know why you thought it wasn't. The rest of your message I should print for my wife, shouldn't I? It sounded as if written for her. Your limbo, cake, candles stuff...all apparently under the impression that I am still seeing OP.<P>Survivor, my heart is in withdrawal so it may not sound all that chipper. I am trying to do the right things, one step at a time. That's the ONLY thing that has gotten me to where I am. As I have said before, my intellect is frantically dog paddling against the emotional rushing waters. The breakthrough moment, the oh-my-God-what-have_I_done moment, if that's what everybody's looking for, that hasn't happened yet. But that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and expose myself to counseling, to ideas different from the flawed ones I might come up with, hoping that through exposure mixed with effort on my part, that I can see things differently and begin to mirror that in my behavior. <P>Let's accept, too, that some days are better than others, and this isn't a particularly great one as I head out to look at an apartment. Having to find a furnished apartment narrows the pckings quite a bit, and what I've seen so far is pretty bad.<P>Ivory

Sorry, Ivory, I misread:<BR>**************<BR>"I don't understand the reference to Plan A. I thought Plan A was for when WS had not stopped contact with OP. That's not the case here.<P>I did let OW know that everything was OK with regard to a possible lynch mob and I informed W that I did"<BR>****************<BR>I thought you were saying just the opposite.<P>In that case...good job... <P>But separation is still tough, but my H Plan A'ed me back, it is possible. Of course I might have been a bit easy because of my own 18 mo. Plan A...though he did it better than I did.<P>Best wishes.<BR>Lor

Ivory,<P>I am truly sorry for the pain both you and your wife are going through. But, I feel that if you want this marriage to work, you must get back into the house. <P>I have dropped all contact with the OM, I'm not in any withdrawl, and I try to Plan A, although not to successful. I am trying to make deposits in my H's lovebank, although sometimes the window is closed.<P>Leaving is too easy. It's your house too! She needs your reassurance right now. If your not there she may think you are still with the OW.<P>

PlainJane & Lor...I agree. If Ivory doesn't get back into his house, his wife is going to think all kinds of things, such as still seeing the OW, or doesn't care enough, etc. etc. A betrayed spouse's mind will wander in all kinds of crazy directions. I know that happenned to me!<P>Ivory, please talk to your wife and try to convince her that in order to begin recovery, the first thing is that you need to be living in the same household. She needs to see that you truly want your marriage to be restored and she needs to see the new changes in you (via Plan A).<P>(((Ivory))))

Oh, Ivory, *please* do what it takes to get back in your house, living with your W! This is SO important! I agree with the others, that your W is particularly vulnerable right now. This is a make or break time. The longer you stay away, the more damage will be done.<P>As for the OW, if you want your marriage and intend on working on the marriage, please write her a letter, much as one suggested in Harley's "Surviving and Affair" and give a copy to your W. It is crucial that the OW know that there is zero possibility that you will ever be together again, and zero possibility that you will ever see or speak to her again. I know that must be tough - I can imagine that if I were under the impression that I loved someone else other than my spouse, I would have difficult time doing this. I'd have a better chance stopping smoking, cold turkey! <P>But remember my story? It can be done. And after it's done, you feel so much better about yourself and your life! By cutting all contact, you free yourself up, and you become whole again - a whole person, ready to save your marriage.<P>I will be praying for you and your W. <P>belld

More than hoping that it reduces somewhat the chance of the A starting up again, a better reason for the invitation to return would be that it could promote me starting to try and relate to her differently. <P>This has been mostly an angry day within me, and that's not good for many reasons. I do think she has given herself some bad advice. She sees her counselor Monday; maybe the counselor will tell her that. Tonight is the eighth night out since the confession.<P>Ivory

<BR>A few quick thoughts:<P>To answer your comment above, "Plan A" is referred to loosely here on the boards as Harley's plan on meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters to win back a spouse's feelings of romantic love. The birth of the concept was in Harley's writing about affairs, but it carries over into all marital situations and roles.<P>To wit: you need to Plan A the heck out of your W right now.<P>Rule One on Plan A is that separation hampers it greatly. Every minute spent together is an opportunity to demonstrate new behaviors that build love. <P>Now, I asked about the OW and you said you had been in contact. In person? By phone? Did she call you or did you call her?<P>You probably think the board members here are obsessed with this topic, but it is with good reason. To the betrayed spouses here, a WS living in a hotel reporting back conversations with the OW is a dagger in the heart. You know nothing happened...your W doesn't, and will assume the worse. Remember, her trust is shattered right now, and all facts will be interpreted to the most negative possible reading.<P>Also, for your sake, each visit, phone call, postcard or email with the OW sets you back to square one in your withdrawal recovery. It is like coming clean off heroin...each fix sets the clock back to zero. <P>Ivory, in your place, I would be politely pleading with my W each day to allow me back in the house. Even giving her the chance to reject you is an empowering kindness in a weird way. And one of these days she will say yes, and you will be back on track.<P>Mike<P>

Where are you? I am worried about you.<BR>Ivory,<P>From a BS point of view. <P>When my H & I were separated, I assumed he spent every moment with the OW, there was nothing he could have ever said that changed what I felt, if he wasn't with his family, he must be with her.<P>My H worked in the same company as OW. When he returned I could never get comfortable that he saw her every day. We are still together barely, & have never started recovery. My H has always thought he would decide & that would be it. Well, it doesn't work that way, we moved to Asia but he was still in contact with OW. I cannot tell you how bad that makes me feel, I don't care that she might have been in pain or whatever, any contact is like another stake in the heart. <P>Get back to your home, & no matter how much you still care for OW don't allow any contact if you want your marriage & Plan A for all you are worth. It is not easy but I still believe it can be done.<BR>

Again, thanks for the expressions of concern. For the record, I have not "reported back" contact with OW from my hotel room. All contact following the confession was reported personally to my wife. Yes, OW has been told that there can be no contact. We are not in a workplace situation, either (seeing each other). <P>I'll be raking leaves over there tomorrow; perhaps there'll be a chance to visit again about the living situation. <P>Ivory<P>

Ivory, I haven't joined in till now. It seems like your afraid of what it will take to make your marriage work. Totally understandable. Your wife right now has upper hand. It is hard to do but let her. <BR>Others are right when they say you need to come back home. Right now she could be feeling emotionally and physically abandoned. she probably would meet you part way in rebuilding. Tell her that you will try your best to keep your mood up and be there for her, and you have been staying away to keep from hurting her any more. You need her too in order to recover. You need to see the woman you fell in love with and she needs to see you. She needs to know where you are all the time. Let her know that you will do whatever you need to to make up for hurting her. It is very hard to do but the ball is in her court. Don't push her but give her the chance to be generous. Build on what was right with your marriage.<BR>I hope you both can heal, and find your love for each other.<P>.D.

Just reporting that we did have a long lunch together today and talked about many things, including the lodging situation. She seemed to acknowledge the theory that this sort of detachment might not be a good thing. I also said that the immediate pressures of finding furnished lodging and getting a regular job were temporarily blocking very much "future" thinking. She said that she would talk to her counselor about it Monday night. <P>I must give her credit for listening to the kinds of things I talk about, because I am honest about the fact that I am trying to obey the will over my emotions. I was able to talk about how I felt with OW emotionally and how difficult of an emotional pull that is to pull away from. This helps her to understand what is going on with me. We talked about many other things as well. Keeping the communication open is a good thing. Clearly there is a barrier between us and we both agree that unless that can be removed we don't want the relationship as it was. Hopefully, if I will do the work, that can change.<P>Ivory

Ivory:<P>You desperately need to write a "No Contact" letter to your OW, and give a copy to your W. It will provide a shred of sincerity to your W as to your intentions, something you really need at this point. Stick with that "No Contact" too. See SAA for details.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited January 21, 2001).]

Ivory,<P>I second that. I too think that you should write a no contact letter with dispatch. I cannot tell you how much respect and love I would have felt for my H if he'd written her a letter like the one in Harley's book! I would have been over the moon. But ... he thought it was b.s., and refused to do so. He just told her "ti-ya," and that was it - very open-ended. The result was that she eventually became so insanely obsessed over the idea that my H might leave that she wrote a loooong letter to me and included ALL of her and my H's emails.<P>He was floored. This was the person who "loved" him so very much! He trusted her! She was his "best friend!" <P>Ivory, please nip this in the bud ... don't think that the same thing can't or won't happen to your W. My H's XOW seemed to be understanding and sweet and tearfully into the "Do what you have to do" mode ... until she saw that he was actually *doing* it. (!!!) When she heard that we'd gone into intense faith-based counseling, she went into orbit.<P>Please don't take any chances. Cut all contact, and make it clear that you will never see or talk to the XOW again ... and let your W know. If you do that, I can almost guarantee you that you will be 50% into recovery! <P>belld

Ivory,<P>You sound to me as if you may be behaving as a bit of a jerk..... or are you that obtuse? You have NOT told your w that you want to come home? "So it now seems that she will need to see the restored me, and who knows how long that will take. Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again."<P>I think you have decided that you prefer to be separated ...... thus the way is paved if ow takes the hint and leaves her h. Meanwhile you have maneuvered your w to ask you to stay out of the home by being cold as a fish in your approach to her after your confession.<P>Why on earth would you tell her of continued contact with ow? Let me guess, "I am being honest."? Well, honest is NOT having the contact to have to be honest about.<P>I believe that you are heavy into rationalizing ways to give in to your addiction (perhaps phrased by fundamentalists as allowing yourself to be misled by the devil). I hope that you will soon have a revelation and begin accepting help. <BR>

<B>There is no more contact with OW.</B> Anything I have told W about contact with her has been following the principles here of reporting same. <P>I'm not sure how far back you read...I talked about lunch with my W, where we talked about many things, kept the communication open, discussed in some detail the lodging issue, including my telling her that I couldn't relate to her in a new way without being around to do so. There have been tears both directions today several times...unusual for cold fish I have seen.<P>In general news...<P>Monday we are looking over landscaping plans together at 5:30, she sees her counselor at 7 and then we talk some more after that. She also has completed her ENQ and we may talk about that tomorrow.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 21, 2001).]

ANY contact is too much contact.<P>Write the letter.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Lemme tell you folks...if we're going to bog down over whether the no-contact agreement is satisfactory, we might as well shut this topic down. There are two separate agreements about no contact, one verbal and one via a letter. My wife and I are not having any prolems over OW contact issues. Anytime she wants to ask about it, she can, and I answer truthfully. Since the confession there has been one contact, from her to me, which even my wife agreed was for a valid reason. Period. <P>Ivory

Ivory, I didn't understand you last post. I'm sorry, it's late and my brain is fried, but do you mean that you and your W have sat down and written a "no contact" letter, or that you're debating a letter vs. verbal? If this is the case, I strongly urge the letter. Read what Harley has to say about it, and why it gives complete closure.<P>As for me, I'm still waiting for my H to write the no-contact letter. Telling the XOW wasn't enough, she still calls him and leaves nasty messages on his voicemail, and it's been months since they've seen each other - guess she's still checking to see if my H is still married and trying to ascertain if it's safe to start circling the corpse - mine, lol!! <P>After the no contact letter, change all of your personal contact information, and get an unlisted number. Just trust me on this. Hang-up phone calls in the middle of the night are no fun for anyone who has to get up early in the morning. <P>Good luck tomorrow - you'll be in my prayers. In our church, we have a part of the sermon where we make prayer requests; the requests that are too personal to be spoken aloud go into the pastor's pocket, and we pray for the people on the list. One of those is for all of my friends on MB, and that includes you, Ivory (no names are explicitly mentioned - just the people on the MB site). Many people were praying for you and your W today, that your marriage will be healed. I hope our prayers are heard.<P>blessings,<P>belld

Ivory,<P>I would recommend that you make a good case for moving back in.<P>Not sure if it's in the books, but the Harleys are strong believers in fixing the marriage while under the same roof.<P>You say you've been honest about your feelings. I think that is really important. But you could take one more step. Tell her clearly that you want to move back, and that you believe your marriage will have the best "chance" that way.<P>What does she want? (This is where it was much easier that we had Jenn Harley in the middle). If she thinks she wants to recover, the best way is working through it TOGETHER.