Ivory, I fully realize that I am being hard on you, and yes, I had read the earlier posts. I had decided not to respond at all until I read about the lunch and thought there was some promise. Nevertheless, I feel that you are falling short in your duty to protect your wife from further hurt. <P>I remember pleading with my h during his period of post discovery withdrawal for reassurance of his feelings for me. I told him that if he did not come through for me soon that the continuing damage would be too great for me to ever fully heal. At that point in time he just could not get it. Unfortunately, that prophecy has been partially fulfilled in that my recovery has been so much harder. His complete happiness for some time has been marred primarily by my struggles to forgive him, to respect him, to trust his judgment, and to feel passionate towards him. I also struggle to fully forgive ow (I have stopped wanting to see her bloody body sprawled in the street, but when I stop hoping she'll get fat and wrinkled, I'll know I've really made it.)<P>I would really like to see you focus some significant energy on making your wife feel better as she deals with this. She sounds like a pretty strong person who is not grasping for desparate solutions. However, despite her apparent strength, I'll bet that she is as much in need as most of the rest of us were of constant and repeated reassurance that you love her. I'd also wager that you don't feel that you can tell her that right now. (Been there with my h) However, you can at least commit to a willingness to do whatever it takes to give your marriage a chance. Perhaps, you can at least tell her that you want it to be restored. I think that all the folks pushing you into writing that letter are doing so as much for the restorative effect for your wife as for the actual effect of getting rid of ow. <P>Meanwhile, you need to continue to dissect this "relationship" that you have with another woman. Come to grips with what the real attraction is and isn't. <P>I am not saying that in another time and place you couldn't have had something with her, but you need to evaluate in the present time and place and end it in your heart as soon as humanly possible. <P>Now that your w knows about the relationship, the damage inflicted by your apparent vacillation will be serious and long lasting. We women are hurt much more by the feelings that you have for the op than by the physical trespass of extramarital sex.<P>Get vested in your marriage. Our counsellor told us that the partner who has devoted less to the marriage and who has been less than a good spouse is much more likely to stray. Forgetting personal relationships and looking at that premise from a business perspective, that statement makes good sense. Why then do the bs's feel like such failures? <P>Start putting your w first regardless of your emotions and her efforts to remain distant. Focus on her and what you can do for her. It will help her, and it will also help you to restore affection and passion for her. An extra plus is that it will help you feel better about yourself. <P>Toss the pride (yours at least - help her to try to find hers) Focus on the goal of restoring a loving, committed, and passionate relationship with your wife.<P><BR>

Hi Ivory,<BR>Hang in there. You've been extremely courageous and deserve to win through. I wish my H had told me, rather than me having to find out myself in an extremely hurtful way.<P>PLEASE write the no-contact letter, Harley-style. Our recovery has been severely crippled by ongoing contact with OW, finally ended a week ago when she phoned him yet again and asked if he wanted to end all contact. He said yes. But I NEED that letter, and I bet your wife does too. Otherwise you haven't made that vital commitment to your spouse, you haven't made your choice and you haven't burnt your bridges and your boats. A letter is irrevocable in the way a phone call isn't.<P>The way I see it, if my H could put so much energy into his relationship with OW, he can put some into his relationship with me. He told her in so many words (I read the email and it's seared into my heart) that he only married me because he thought he couldn't have her and passively drifted into the relationship with me. He's been reluctant to break contact because he's known her so long (nearly 10 years) and he didn't want to hurt her. Well, what about me? Hurt is an understatement for what he did to me. This is less about hurting her than healing me; if he writes the letter it will be cancelling out what he said to her and giving us a fresh start. Your wife will see it that way too. If you write the letter, and follow up with commitment and Plan A, she'll really know that she is your first choice.<P>Best wishes.<P>

At the end of the A I did write a letter, one that was not uncertain about the no-contact. In addition, she volunteered that she herself would not make any either. It was not a Harley letter but it was not uncertain. My wife is aware of all of this. And there has been no contact sincer then except for the one instance I mentioned in an earlier message.<P>A case can be made for me being more effusive in my actions toward my wife. Certainly I will try, and do try. You must understand that there is, and was for some time prior to the A, an emotional barrier between us. Neither one of us likes that, of course, but we both know it is there. That wall has to come down, clearly. It dulls effusive actions, but, as I said, nevertheless I will try to be more forward and playful and gentle and all else that I can. <P>Remember, too, that even Harley says not to set the expectations too high during withdrawal. Who knows how things might be in future weeks? I have an initial, "look-see" consultation with a counselor today and left another message with another one.<P>For what it's worth, while my wife is no different from any other woman in wanting and needing affection and assurances of my love during these days, I can tell you that because of her own strength of character and personality and because of her Christian faith, she is very strong for the circumstances (please don't feel that you need to remind me that she is still emotionally vuilnerable...I'm just trying to tell you something about how she's handling this). She says she has a vison of future wholeness for me. She is going about her days and responsibilities in a fairly normal anner, despite the inner turmoil I'm sure she still feels.<P>ivory

Your W sounds incredible, Ivory. <P>I wish that I were more like her. And I mean that in every respect of the word. She sounds logical and kind and capable - her inner strength dazzles me. She sounds like she'd make a wonderful friend to anyone.<P>You are so lucky! Forget the OW and take off your blinders, hon - your W is wonderful!<P>belld

Bell, Whatever the problems within me, or the blinders, they don't mask from me her beauty, her character, her strength and so many of the other virtues she has. Without doubt, everyone who meets my wife loves my wife. She is an exceptional person, no question. Perhaps down the road I'll feel that I can publicize her web site and you can read for yourself the story of her life, how she got to where she is despite big obstacles. My having said these things, I'm sure that it make the occurance of an affair even harder to imagine, but of course an affair is an abberation to begin with. <P>I saw one counselor today in an introductory consultation and talked to another on the phone. Both seemed workable and affable. I will pick one to work with and go from there.<P>Ivory

What you wrote about your wife made me cry. Does she know you feel that way? Even though you had an A, your W is lucky in that is you who told her, you want to work to rebuild your marriage, make it better, you have cut all contact with OW, you have sent the letter, & you don't work with OW. Ya'll are so much further a long then so many of us. <P>Prayers for you & your wife. Good luck with the counselor, why aren't you & W going to the same one?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...why aren't you & W going to the same one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She found one right after the confession. It turns out that both of the ones I'm considering know and like W's counselor and believe that they could "swap notes" over the phone with each otheras needed. joint counseling is always an option, either me with her and her counselor or her with me and mine.

Just wanted everyone to know that I am now living at home again. There are conditions, as you might think, but none that most people in this situation would think unreasonable. There is awkwardness and we have significant obstacles in the relationship, issues beyond the affair of course. But we will see how this goes. Thanks to everyone for your concern.<P>Ivory

That is good news!

Ivory,<P>Great news!<P>I guess I'm just plain weird. I made love to him the night he confessed. The pain was incredible, but I had already been reading Harley and I knew ultimately I wanted my marriage and I wanted him.<P>So he never left even my bedroom...<P>I would love to read her story if and when you feel inclined to post the site. I too have overcome tremendous obstacles to be where I am, and these things made the betrayal that much more difficult to deal with...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>Just wanted everyone to know that I am now living at home again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yay! That's great, Ivory.<P>I know there are counselors involved, so I don't wantto step on toes, but in your shoes, I would be trying to get my W to take the LB and EN questionaires, so I can start to impress her with my new behavior.<P>Mike <P>

Way to go Ivory!<P>cleo

Ivory, you know what? Our prayers worked for you and your W. Or at least I like to think that they did. <P>It's good that you're looking deep inside yourself for the answers, instead of trying to rationalize them away, or think of pithy reasons that you got involved with another party. Good for you! This will make you into a stronger person. There is a lesson to all of this - learn from it. It's there for your taking.<P>Now you need some time. Time to reflect on the marriage and the EMR. Time has done wonders for my H. Last night, we discussed some of the hideous things that the XOW did to me and told me, and H discovered that she was lying about a lot of things and manipulating his responses. He hates her now, and hates himself for letting him be led along the primrose path. He hates what he allowed her to do to me. But it took a long time to get there - and another fight, of course. He's now in the course of negotiating to meet some of my needs - the needs that went unmet for so long. Wish us luck!<P>I'm so happy for you! <P>belld

: : : :<P>Glad you are back at home. Hope your road is not too hard or long for the marriage that you both want. Prayers for you & your wife.

The awkwardness must be tough. We did not exactly go through that because when my h's ea first began he adamantly denied an ow. He did tell me that he was miserable and was going to leave in several months (when school released for summer).<P>Our relationship had been strained, angry awkward for many months before this. He had withdrawn and seemed grumpy and unhappy about most everything in his life.<P>It never had occurred to me that his problem was with me. When he told me that he wanted out, I knew that he had been depressed. I thought he was just struggling with midlife crisis. I felt that I had failed to meet all his needs and had generally been a self absorbed maneater. I immediately began to try to help him with his unhappiness which I considered our problem. I felt such guilt because, while I knew that I been supermom and successful professional, I also realized that I had taken h horribly for granted.<P>Although I didn't know about Dr. Harley, I had been applying his principles for months when I stumbled onto the love letters from ow. It was then rather simple for me to force an end to contact. Restoration of us (& especially of me) took a bit longer. I am generally a strong passionate person, but by the time of discovery, my h's rejection of me and his lies to cover for himself had just about destroyed all of my self confidence. I had lost most of the joy from living. Meanwhile, without the confusion of ow, h came out of his fog pretty quickly. <P>Much later h admitted that part of him had actually enjoyed having 2 women struggling to make him happy with all the feminine means they had available. He says that he was miserable being torn between us, but the emotional pleasure from his ea was just too much to resist. He says now that he sees that comments form ow that seemed so loving during the ea were really quite manipulative in that she knew exactly what to say (and what to not say) to make him feel gloriously happy. Ow also knew what to say to make me appear grasping and desperate in contrast (I didn't know about her). H says that he had felt that he was her savior, He now sees that to a great extent he acted like a puppet on a string doing whatever it took to please her.<BR> <BR>Through it all we had a good sexual relationship and enjoyed each other's companionship. After discovery of the letters, there was awkwardness while h struggled through withdrawal - expecially when he struggled against looking at his attraction to her and seeing that it was based primarily on ego and self indulgence. (Counselling helped him with this. We were not able to deal with this ourselves.) Facing the real truth about the ea required him to admit some pretty serious weaknesses in himself and in ow. That was very hard for him. The traits that attracted him to ow are things that I generally don't appreciate enough. Ow was one of the few people at church that I really did not like even before their ea. I too have a tremendous ego, and the rejection was really hard to swallow.<P>As usual this rambles on, but I do understand and expect the awkwardness. I was lucky in that my professional experience let me know intellectually (although it was really hard on my spirit) what to expect and how to handle many things. We did understand how important it was to treat each other as wonderful cherished partners as best we could even when we weren't happy with the immediate situation. That is not remotely close to "faking it." We just had to focus especially hard on what we could do for each other. <P>Of course there were times when we ranted and raved and yelled and screamed. I was not always able to civilly contain the emotional torment. Words came from my mouth that I really don't believe I had previously even thought silently! On the other hand, with equal vigor, my h avoided conflict and facing anything negative about himself with all of his Phi Beta Cappa intellect. <P>Do what you have to do to steer clear of both the cold fish presentation and the avoidance of meaningful interaction. Don't spend all your time together talking about your affair or your relationship with ow, but do spend a great deal of private and together time there. As ws, this will not be something you want to do. <P>Equally important in our recovery was probably the vast amount of time we devoted to being together doing things that we both really enjoy. We treated ourselves with lots of time to play, watch sports, listen to music, cook, travel etc. Abruptly eliminating our church commitments for awhile (because ow is our music director) freed up a great deal of time. Fortunately, we enjoy many of the same recreational activities and were able to devote our spare time to having fun with each other.<P>I hope you and your wife will be able to deliberately work your way out of the awkwardness and rediscover an emotional connection between the two of you. Just remember that what your wife needs right now may not correspond to what is your first impulse to do or say. You and she may need and want different things from each other, and it is important that you both give that due deference. <P>If your wife always reacts calmly and rationally through all this, I think something is probably really wrong. Don't expect too much from her. I hope that she will not expect too much from you. But do take it from me, she should not be expected to fully accept withdrawal. I understood it on an intellectual level, but underneath that was an indescribable emotional conflict.<P>Reach down inside yourself, reach up to God and reach out to your wife. She needs you now more than ever whether or not she shows it.

As a physician, my wife may not be able to escape her natural curiosity about disease and illness, which, in a weird sort of way, probably helps her deal with ths hurting soul she sees within me. She relates in that way but also, of course, as a BS. She appreciates my efforts at seeing if we can make it, however they may turn out. <P>In terms of her reaction, rest assured it was initially anything BUT calm. But that immediate anger is almost gone, she says. I'm sure there is residual nager deeper within, but she is able to function without the surface anger for now. <P>I am working through McGraw's book, "Relationship Rescue." It has some good things so far, but I'm just into the first or second chapter. I can't argue against any of your points, and I definitely try to be careful about how I am around my wife, mood-wise. We are doing a few "normal" things together; there's room for more of that. Her own counselor also advised her that we not make all of our time together "heavy." Unlike with your situation, we do not have a good sexual relationship at present and I'm not sure when that will kick back in; so much is tied to the emotional that it, too, would be pretty awkward about now, not to mention the possibility of the "performance" aspect being deflated, if you catch my drift. In any event, we will take that as it comes a little later.<P>Thanks for taking the time to write what you did.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 24, 2001).]

Ivory,<P>Please let me know what you think about "Relationship Rescue." I've seen it out, and have heard very good things about it. I've just started reading "After the Affair," and it's a very good book for both spouses to read. The best yet, actually.<P>In a rather morbid way, it's sort of heartening to know that there is a man out there who equates sex and love. As a woman, one hears so many times that men are able to have sex with just about any willing female they come across. <P>Sex is indeed a state of mind. It takes a while for the BS to get back to that state, as well.<P>blessings,<P><BR>belld

Ivory,<P>I'm sure there are alot more people following your situation than those that have responded so far. I'm one of them. Just wanted to say that I'm really happy that you are back home, and that you are both taking the necessary steps to work on your marriage. Keep it up.