i just wanted to know if anyone out there has run across my situation. h is starting to show signs of coming out of the fog for the 3rd time.he finally spent some time with the kids this past weekend and i had given him a letter just stating how i still loved him but i needed to have little contact with him. just a letter just letting him pretty much know that i still loved him and wanted to work on us still. but after he had read it a song, without you by the dixie chics came on and my daughter told him that that was my song and he told her not to tell me but when he hears that song it reminded him of your momma. then me and the kids were suppose to go horse back riding with a male friend but i backed out at the last minute cause it didn't feel right. the kids had told him that we were going so last night he called and only spoke to my daughter for a couple of minutes and all he asked her is if we went horse back riding. she was in the middle of eating dinner so he called her back an hr later and said why didn't you go and she said momma just said that it didn't feel right whatever that meant and that she would just take us this weekend. and he said your momma will take you? i guess he was shock cause this is the first time that i will ride a horse. anyway that was all he said and that he had to go cause he was on a friends cell phone and needed to go. he only asked her those questions and hung up. but he lied cause i looked at the caller id and he called from his phone? guess ow was coming in the room. he also askes her if certain men have been over and things like that. any advice and do you think that the fog is lifting. also i forgot to mention that my 4 kids have finally told him that they didn't want to go to his house with her there. so now he is just taking them placing goes they don't want to be aroung her and my 3 yr old told him that he wanted one of my friends to be his new daddy. ouch that must of hurt him. any replies would be appreciated<BR>darleen

Looks like you H may be reaping what he has sown.<P>Steve H. once mentioned to me...<BR>...in a Plan B or long distance Plan A...<P>...someone else has to bring the "message" to the WS... (you can't do it!)<P>Your kids are sharp...<BR>...you're a lucky mom.<P>Enjoy the horseback riding...<BR>...I took my kids for the first time this past summer.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

what message would that be? That another man may step into his place? i know he had told me a week before christmas, cause a male friend got our christmas tree and was here when he called and he heard all the laughter from children...he just dropped the next day very early in the morning. he told me that he understood what i had been feeling saying that he was up till 5 in the morning thinking of another man taking his place. the same day him and ow got into a huge fight in front of my kids were h hit himself in the head cause he got real mad. that's how they get with eachother which i don't understand. anyway am i reading to much into this in thinking he might be coming out of the fog? is it good for me to have that hope again or am i reading to much into it?<BR>any advice

I think he maybe seeing as the country song goes..Thats not my truck in my drive..<BR>He's seeing that you can have men friends and laugh and have fun too..and he's getting jealous..that someone else will take his place not just w/ you..but with his kids..<BR>

Sorry... wrong message...<P>The message is that he needs to know you can change...<P>That you can improve in meeting his needs...<P>That there are skill bothy you <B>and he</B> can learn...<BR>...and learning it can be enjoyable.<P>What the "rules" are...<BR>...i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A><P>Agreeing, mutually...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A><P>Don't give him the message that "you will cheat on him"...<BR>...it is the wrong method.<P> <P>Jim

Don't give him the message that you will cheat on him BUT do send the message that even though it is not what you "wish", you have no choice but to carve out a life for you and your kids, if he continues to choose not to be a part of the marriage. What he's seeing here is that his behavior is having some untoward consequences. He's missing precious moments that occur within his family. Do not save him from those natural consequences.

i don't intend on saving him from anything, wether we don't get back together the possiblity of someone else being i9n my and the kids life might happen. i don't tell him a thing about my private life. 2wks ago he just dropped by after the kids were asleep and wanted to discuss our daughter, that lasted about an hr then the last 3 he wanted to know what i was feeling and what was going threw my mind, i didn't anser him and told him that we were discussing the kids and then he said that i could tell him anything. i don't intend on ever being with another man for a long long time if we don't get back together. seeing my kids around other men hurts cause it's him i'm wishing was with us. he didn't call tonight so i guess he is soaking it all in. his A is also hurting his relationship with his kids cause she doesn't want him aroung me so he is seldon seeing them. i can see how someone can have control over someone like that. nobody would come between me and my children and he used to be like that. we have a 1 yr old and he wasn't even there for his b-day considering last sat our 3yr old turned 4 and all he did was call late that night. i just don't understand. i do think the wheels are turning in his head, but my question is, is it enough?

Don't ask the kids for info. Let them be kids & don't let them get "in the middle." It's okay to ask if they had a good time & what they did, but it should not be a grilling for info.<P>For your children (& you) you need to remember you are married and act that way. That means no dating. Would you go horseback riding with a single guy & your kids if your hubby were home? You're married so act like it!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

i don't ask my kids for info, they come and tell me some things, things h knows they will tell me. h is asking the kids info on me. another thing these are friends, people that he also knows. so in others words it is ok for him in the beginning to take our children to her house where he is living and have his own little happy family there with our children and do things with ow? i don't have to worry about that no more cause the kids do not want to be around her and have told him so. i never stopped him from taking the kids even though it was breaking my heart. i think we might be getting off topic, i just wanted to know if he is finally waking up and seeing what he had chosen over his family. or if i am reading too much into this. or if i should just tell him that i want him to come home? i can't help what the kids are feeling, they want me to find them a new daddy, one that is here living with us, that's a tough question to answer to them. they need a father figure and that is what they see in these friends. they are missing that time together that i can not profide.they will go weeks without seeing there father and i know that they are hurting. i just don't know what to do.

I know that with my H, coming out of the "fog" all started with him realizing his kids were losing respect for him. They refused to go spend time with him at the place he moved out to. They wanted their own beds and their friends and didn't want their lives disrupted to go spend time in a place that didn't have their things and their friends. I never forced them to go and H wasn't able to do that either. Another big thing that helped to really start the crank turning in my H's brain was that I started going to meetings of Parents Without Partners. I simply told him that if I was going to parent 3 kids alone I needed support from people who knew what I was going through, as I didn't feel comfortable telling all of our friends and family the problems we were having,as that can lead to problems down the road. He got very nervous that I would meet someone that would be more than willing to take his place. He knew how vulnerable and sad I was. Seems like your H is having the same kinds of thoughts. That's how the "coming back" process started for us. Hope this gives you some hope!

thanks for the advice, it helps to here from people going through it and who have been through it. i just didn't want to read to much into his actions. sometimes i can see the person i new trying to come out. he had once told me a couple of weeks ago that he wished he could tell me that i could depend on him but the ony peron that i could was myself, that he has lost faith in himself and it hurt to hear him say that cause he was always so responsible and would move heaven and earth for us. doesn't he realize to get the faith back and for him to stop feeling like a failure would be to come back and make all the wrong right? a friend of his once told me that his self esteem is so low, but wouldn't it be built up by doing what was right? doesn't he know that if he doesn't come back someone will take his place with me and the kids? we can only wait so long, it's been 10 months since d-day and i'm trying to hang on, i think i showed him and proved to him how much i do love him. he told me a long time ago when he told me about the A that he thought he couldn't make me happy that he was a failure and was crying. but i think i proved to him how much i do love him. what is it going to take to open his eyes. another man moving in here? i thought that with the kids saying to him that they want another daddy that that would do it. i know he is thinking, he is a thinker hard. speak of the devil he just called. wanted to know how bad i needed money. what does he think. i don't know, sometimes i have hope and like i'm feeling now am i wasting my time? should i maybe give these other guys a chance? i'm not getting any younger and my kids are younge and need that father figure. maybe he won't come out of it? any suggestion on what to do to try to get him to wake up from the betrayers?

He sounds depressed. It effects their thinking patterns and makes them feel like total failures. They can't begin to fathom how to go back and correct the mess and the mess seems overwhelming. Any chance you can get him to see a good doctor? My H changed dramatically once he started meds but he was ultra resistant to taking medication, as are a lot of men.<P>My only other suggestion is a good strong Plan B.10 months is a very long time in Plan A. It's not getting you the results you need so it's probably better to do something different to change up the mix. He's still able to talk to you and that gives him temporary comfort and attatchment. Plan B can give you the egde and him the impetus to *hit or get off the pot. No you can't wait forever,but I wouldn't start anything with another man until you've given Plan B your best shot and you've taken time to heal this horrible wound. Another man at this point would definitely not be good for your kids (even though that is what they are asking for, they really want THEIR dad back) and would not likely result in a healthy relationship for you.

well how can i do plan b when i do have to have some contact with himcause of the kids? and i only got to do plan a from afar cause he is not living with us. i do think he doesn't know how to come back and undo what he has done, and i know he still has feelings for me since he told my daughter that that that dixie chics song without you reminds him of me. i have listen to that song a lot since she told me. he won't go to see anyone, he is not like that. so we are stuck. i need to figure out what i can do myself and have no clue. i don't want anyone else in our lifes but h, even when friends are around all i can think about is it should be him? i'm stuck and i don't think i can be pulled out of it.

You can do Plan B with kids. There are a number of ways to do it,one being very strict and the other way not being an exact Harley Plan B but one in which you still have contact due to the kids,but you meet absolutely NONE of WS's ENs.<P>With the strict Harley plan you get someone to be your intermediary. WS communicates with that person regarding visitation and issues with the kids. That person exchanges your kids with your H so you have absolutely no contact with him whatsoever, they also exchange communications between the two of you regarding issues about the kids,or you could limit your contact to e-mail and only discuss the kids,absolutely nothing else. As it stands now H calls and gets to talk to you so you are meeting a need for communication.<P>I realize it is terribly difficult to do a strict Harley Plan B when you have small children (I have 3). The other method is to act "as if" you are divorced and simply limit your physical contact to swapping the kids back and forth(and you can even be in another room in the house when that occurs) and engaging in conversation only about the children. There is good information on this method in the book Divorce Busting and on the website divorcebusting.com<P>Plan B is about letting OW try to meet ALL of H's needs. Obviously she's not doing too well at that or H wouldn't have been fence sitting for so long.If you haven't read SAA yet or talked to Steve harley by phone I would highly recommend it. I'm pulling for you hrtbroken! Hang in there!

thank you, i do that now with trying to limit contact with h. when he was here this past sunday i wouldn't let him in and he stood by the front door discussing kids and giving pictures that he had gotten doubles of. then when he dropped them off he left 3 times and came back each time after, then the last time i was going outside with the kids to watch them ride there bikes and he kept on saying he had to leave but stayed outside with us. he tried to talk to me and i only would replied to some things he was asking me...like laughing and saying that i was the one who got him fired from his job, which i said i did not if he temper wasn't so bad he wouldn't of told his superviser to butt out. then asking me where i work and small talk. i think he stayed guess one of the friends that the kids keep talking about lives across the street and they were calling for him and he kept giving dirty looks. i wasn't the only one noticing that he kepted on watching me. then he told me to get on one of the bikes and put my son on the handle bars and i gave my son a ride and he was laughing at us saying that we look like brother and sister cause i am so little. you would think we were a perfect family that day. even went to his car and got me a lighter to light my cig. what is going on with him. i know he misses it, i can see it. but what is holding him back? i wish i new, i wish i new what to say, what to do. i won't let us talk about anything that is bothering me and what i'm feeling. he had said right before christmas that we were a team and i told him no we weren't and he said well, were the kids are concern we are. ya right, he only calls them maybe a couple of times a wk and see thems maybe every 3wks. i just don't know.

ok h just left with daughter a little bit ago to take her to the movies, stayed here about 45min and up till 10 min before movie started, figures he will be late. anyway had a female friend over and everyone was laughing an stuff and i held my [censored]. i really didn't notice but friend said he kept on looking at me and when i went into kitchen with what i was wearing and the way i was standing he said wo baby and when she looked to see what i was doing i turned and had my back towards him. i didn't hear him but i started to wear different style of cloths and got my hair down and looked pretty good. anyway someother things were said and i went outsied for something and he was talking about the guy across the street and the neighborhood and how he wanted to get me out of here and then other subjects and wanting ot protect me and asking if any guys have been bothering me and he would take care of it. what 's up with all of this. now he will probably be back with daughter somewhere around 12 so i don't know what we will discuss then. he was kind of upset cause i told him that i can handle and take care of myself and wanted to know if guy across the street had touch me or something. told him that i can handled it and that i had set him straight before and that i can take care of myself. ok so what gives?

ok well h dropped daughter off and only stayed a few minutes, had to get home before ow got home from work. anyway he said that he wanted me to look for a new house this next month cause he wanted to get me out of it, nothing about getting the kids out of here just said ME. then it was just small talk and said that he would try and get an advance on his check and would call me tomorrow to see if he could give me some more money. said that his bills are behind. they are having money problems but the way i feel is his kids should come first before any of there, her, bills. anyway, he told me to have a good night and locked the door behind him then stopped and farted. like he was his old self? what is going on with him? then told me to have a good night. daughter said that in the movie there was a man who walked out an abandoned his wife and baby and h cried then in another seen daughter was older and telling someone that she just wanted someone there to love her and be there and the father said well i'm here, daughter had a stuffy knows and h thought she was crying and took his hand on her face and put her head on his chest and he was crying. is he started to come around?

Hrtbroken,<BR> What you are seeing are all positive signs.However,they may or may not indicate he's on his way back,just that he's still on the fence. It is counterproductive for you to try to microanalyze everything he does and says. You are not in Plan A or Plan B. You need to pick one and stick with it. For me,after 10 months of fence sitting, I would have to go to Plan B and that means he's not in the house hanging around with you and your friend or anybody for that matter. That means you refuse to be engaged in conversations about him moving you out of the house you are in. You just don't go there,it's none of his business, he left. <P>Again, you are meeting some of his EN's and it hasn't helped you or him in the last 10 months,he continues to go home to OW.More of the same is likely to get you more of the same. It's entirely up to you and only you know what you can handle,but I would be in the most strict Plan B I could handle. To be effective in Plan B you need to send the Plan B letter as well, not just do it and hope he gets it. Good luck to you!

i don't know what to say, when he was here last night i couldn't very well tell him to get out in front of the kids could i. i don't talk to him on the phone unless he has something to ask me about the kids other wise i tell the kids i don't feel like talking or are busy and he has told me that that pisses him off. i also did tell him that i don't need his help with a house and he gets mad at that and wants to do it anyway. i don't tell him anything about my personell life and that gets him angry like last night. so what is it that i am suppose to do. a friend of his says he feels like a failure and i should let him do things for me to boost up his self esteem and to not feel like a failure, that he knows were he belongs but needs help getting back, so what do i do?

You send a Plan B letter. You tell him in the letter that you will no longer have any contact with him because it is killing your love for him when he is still in the thick of his affair. You tell him that you realize that you have your part in the demise of the marriage and that you are working hard to change yourself and make improvements so that you are able to be a better wife. Whether he choses for that to be with him or in another relationship with someone else somewhere down the road,that is his choice. You tell him you love him and want the marriage to work but that you will lose all the love you have if he continues to chose to be in the affair. You tell him that by limitting your contact to the children's issues that you are saving what little love you have left. You do this in a letter so he has it to refer to. Once you send the letter you will no longer have to worry about handling the issue of telling him to get out of the house in front of the kids because situations like that will no longer occur. You cannot let yourself be so worried about pi$$ing him off and him getting mad because of what you need to do to save your love for him. That's a natuaral consequence to him continuing his affair behavior. I don't see that he's worried about you being mad because he's stringing you along while he continues with OW. He wants to be in control of his own life with no consideration to what he's doing to you and the kids by being with OW and he wants to be in control of your life and how and where you live it too. If that is what you want that is up to you but you do have other workable choices at your disposal to change the current dynamics occuring in your relationship with H.