I've heard it said that some pastors council the WS not to tell the BS about an affair.<P>Why?<P>The reason why I ask is because I thought it was awfully odd. It seems as though they don't want to upset things or something like that. <P>Can someone explain to me why they do that?<P>Thanks,<BR>Miaka<P>PS This has nothing to do with me at all, I'm asking because it's something I heard with my own ears and something I've seen on here quite a bit.

Hi,<P>I am not sure how much counseling experiance or training that pastors have in infidelity.<P>But then again some others say the same thing.. I beleive one of those radio show ones.. Dr Laura or someone says the same thing. I guess they just don't beleive in honasy. They think it won't come back to haunt you.<BR>Lora

Hi, I wondered how you were doing. How are things with your SIL in the house? Have you avoided "triangling"?<P><BR>My take on the "Don't tell the spouse" is this: Unless you absolutely have to tell your spouse because you have an STD, a pregnancy, or possibility of violence or exposure to embarressment that you want to spare the spouse, easing your conscience with a confession burdens the innocent party. You feel better getting it off your chest, but the BS now agonizes over unanswered questions, feeling that they are not sexy enough or interesting enough to hold you, and on and on.<P>If you have erred once or even in a series of meetings, and realize you were wrong, and are willing to work hard to repair things that you realize are wrong, the affair may have some value because of what it has taught you. <P>You can't imagine how much the hurt is that can be inflicted on the partner once they find out that you've deceived them.<P>It's kind of like, you just eat it. You keep the pain to yourself, or go to counseling alone, and spare your partner the humiliation/pain/distress of your betrayal.<P>That's how I figure it.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

<B>Lora:</B><P>You're right. I guess it's assumed that if you have an affair, you don't have to be honest. But why? I don't understand why the general consensus among pastors and the like seem to think that not telling will do more good than harm.<P><B>Bellevue:</B><P>Hi Bellevue. I would be lying if I said things were OK with SIL in the house. How about I say things are tolerable? The major problem was I having with them being here was that before they came, my son used to take a nap during the day. For about 1 1/2 weeks after they moved in, he wouldn't take a nap and would want to sleep when I came home. That means he would be getting up when it was time to go to bed. He's starting to take naps again.<P>Another problem I'm having is with their ultra-loud daughter (she's 1). She runs thru the house late at night screaming and banging on our door. It scared the "stuff" out of me the first time I heard it, but it's getting annoying real quick.<P>Other than that, SIL comes to church with me. She fits in real well with them. That's all fine and good, but now I'm starting to get in trouble at church, a lot. That's not cool. <P>And yes, I have avoided triangling with her. I don't answer her when she talks about my husband's mother. She doesn't do it that much anymore because they (pastor) told her (well, it was mainly directed towards me) to stop talking about my husband's mother. Basically, she listened and seems to be doing better.<P>I know this may sound stupid, but why? Why not tell? The reason why I keep asking is because it's almost like a spouse could keep a person on the side and keep messing up and doesn't have to tell the other spouse. I mean, if it were me (and it very well could be me), I would want to know. I don't think it's right to keep something like that hidden because it's doing more damage than good. I mean, the BS usually *knows* something's out of order.<P>I guess I'll never get why it's suddenly "OK" in this culture not to tell the truth anymore, especially with things like this.<P>Thanks anyway,<BR>Miaka

yuki miaka:<BR><B>[b]Lora:</B><P><BR>Well, tolerable is okay. Sorry for the stressors. The more people in a household, the more stress and compromise and toleration. Less privacy. The 1 year old just doesn't understand. How long will you all be living under one roof?<BR>Your son's routine was disrupted but now it's back to normal. That's good.<P>How are you getting in trouble at church? What's happening there?<P>"And yes, I have avoided triangling with her. I don't answer her when she talks about my husband's mother." Wonderful! I suggest repeating something about not wanting to gossip and talk behind anyone's back any time she hints that she wants to bad-mouth your MIL. Be really clear.<P>Like I said, it's a real tempting thing to gossip. I have to battle it myself. You have a feeling of power, knowing something behind someone's back that they don't know. But it's destructive to everyone involved. The listener, the talker, and the third party.<P>"She doesn't do it that much anymore because they (pastor) told her (well, it was mainly directed towards me) to stop talking about my husband's mother. Basically, she listened and seems to be doing better."<P>What I read here is that you are taking responsibility for your role in this activity. If that's what you are doing, you deserve credit.<P>Maybe I should be clearer on why not telling the spouse about an affair is worth considering. If the affair is over, and there are no disease issues, if there is no pregnancy, and you are truly remorseful and want to rebuild, you shouldn't tell. <P>I think you were talking about an ongoing affair, keeping That a secret. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about relieving your own conscience at the expense of your spouse's pain.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Hello Bellevue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The more people in a household, the more stress and compromise and toleration. Less privacy. The 1 year old just doesn't understand.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know, now that I think of it, it's odd. My husband and SIL will speak to each other and I will speak to SIL. I have a VERY hard time speaking to BIL because he looks angry all the time.<P>Yes, the 1 year old doesn't understand....she doesn't understand that this isn't her parents room.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How long will you all be living under one roof?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hopefully not too much longer.....that's all I can say...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Your son's routine was disrupted but now it's back to normal. That's good.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not really, now that BIL and SIL are here and they're on the same floor as us, my son likes to stay up late at night because they do. It's hard getting him to go to sleep at a reasonable time.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How are you getting in trouble at church? What's happening there?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, no......that was a big mess. Give me your e-mail address and I'll send you what I wrote on it because I don't want to post that here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Wonderful! I suggest repeating something about not wanting to gossip and talk behind anyone's back any time she hints that she wants to bad-mouth your MIL. Be really clear.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I shall make sure I remember to do this. You're not the only person that told me to get this straight with her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>What I read here is that you are taking responsibility for your role in this activity. If that's what you are doing, you deserve credit.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I take responsibility for everything I did, but church felt like a Blast-Out Miaka Day and not a normal church day. Hopefully it won't happen again...but then again, I've been getting blasted every other Sunday (almost every Sunday) I go there. It's embarrassing especially when I invite other people to come with me. <P>The first time my husband came was a rip up Miaka session. I hope my husband doesn't get it in his head that I'm some horrible person for the things I get yelled at up there for.<P>The first time (second and third) SIL came with me, I got ripped up again. It's becoming embarrassing. Now I'm scared to invite people to come with me because they might think I'm some evil person that can't do stuff right.<P>Please don't get me wrong, they're not mean people. If they were, I wouldn't be going. They want to help me just like you and everyone else does. You'd have to read what I wrote to understand....can't say no more on it....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think you were talking about an ongoing affair, keeping That a secret. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about relieving your own conscience at the expense of your spouse's pain.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Acutally, I wasn't talking about an ongoing affair. I was talking about one or more times separately. I guess my question to you is this:<P>If the person who cheated doesn't really think that there were disease issues because they didn't bother to check still decides not to tell, is that right?<P>I guess what I'm saying is that doesn't a BS have to right to know that the WS hasn't been faithful? How can you trust a person who you know in the back of your mind was with someone else, but they still won't tell? How can you trust them?<P>I hope you can answer my questions, hope it's not too many.<P>Thanks Bellevue,<BR>Miaka<P>

<B>Bellevue:</B><P>I have another question for you. Just a minute ago, I was going thru some old papers I had back then and I found this observation list that I made of my husband's behavior a couple of years back. You tell me if he was cheating on me:<P><BR>Miscellaneous Observations (earlier):<P>- said "Don't mistake my kindess for weakness"<BR>- doesn't really want to spend money on me (i.e. going out to places)<BR>- feels that he's bending over backwards to make me happy<BR>- feels like he's working himself to death<BR>- feels like I'm taking so much from him<BR>- yells at me a lot, cussing too<BR>- yells at me like I'm a kid<BR>- when he talks to other people, he pays attention to what they're saying<BR>- talking to him bothers him<BR>- dying to get space from me<BR>- feels that I'm annoying him whenever I talk to him<BR>- feels like I'm being mean to him<BR>- gets an attitude with me a lot<BR>- gets defensive<BR>- doesn't say much to me<BR>- feels that I blame him for everything<BR>- takes me for granted<BR>- complains a lot<BR>- became distant after I got pregnant<BR>- put up a wall between us<BR>- wants to do everything he used to do<BR>- feels as though I'm holding him back<BR>- doesn't want to talk to me<BR>- let his friends stay over late so I'd have to sleep somewhere else<BR>- feels that I can't make my own decisions<BR>- keeps to himself<BR>- isn't really interested in talking to me about something other than video games<BR>- doesn't really give affection anymore<BR>- says nothing about sex because there is none<BR>- always anxious to go out by himself to get stuff<BR>- plays video games everyday now<BR>- lies about his hours of when he's coming home<BR>- gets mad and jumpy real easy<BR>- took a job at some other place instead of getting a better job<BR>- he's basically doesn't care about me and my son because he's doing what he wants to do<P>If you think he had/or is having an affair (he doesn't do most of this stuff anymore), then he's doing a good job of keeping it secret.<P>Miaka<BR>

Bellevue,<P>Your don't-tell advice is directly contrary to the Harley principles. I for one was hammered around here about the need for me to confess the affair. Harley teaches that utter and complete honesty is the standard, so that intimacy can be restored (secret guilt doesn't reside in one spouse, blocking affection and romance). I'm curious as to if you were aware of that, and feel the way you do in spite of it.<P>Ivory

yuki miaka:<P>"If the person who cheated doesn't really think that there were disease issues because they didn't bother to check still decides not to tell, is that right?"<P>In my opinion, no it's not right. If you don't know for sure that you weren't infected in the contact, it's immoral to risk your spouse's health and life by withholding that information. If you have had yourself tested, and know 100% for sure that there is nothing (HIV, chlamidia, herpes, warts, etc.) and the affair is past, and you've really changed and won't cheat again, that's when you have to keep the thing to yourself or confide only to a priest (You're not Catholic right?) A priest cannot ever reveal what was told to him in confession. So you never have the relief of sharing the burden with your partner, and he never has to share the burden of your sin and carry that pain inside him/her. It is selfless to keep the secret when all it would accomplish is to hurt your spouse. It is selfish to withhold the information when the spouse needs to know for their own protection.<P>My opinion only. Harley probably disagrees, and I respect him because he has a healthy marriage. So take my opinion for what it's worth, remember why I'm posting here.<P>Try e-mailing me at Bellevue Belle@aol.com. Send a test message. If it doesn't work, post here again and I'll try to figure out what's wrong.<P>Cyber hugs, pats on the back. <P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited January 22, 2001).]

<B>Ivory:</B><P>I saw what you were talking about except it was with another person that posts on this site. I guess I can't understand why something this horrible needs to be kept a secret because if it's ever found out later on, it's a million times worse.<P><B>Bellevue:</B><P>Hello again. I sent you a test e-mail a minute ago.<P>BTW, you never answered that list of stuff that I wrote down there. From looking at it, do you think my husband has/still is cheating?<P>Thanks,<BR>Miaka

Bellevue, your e-mail address doesn't work. I can't send anything to you. Are you sure that's how it's spelled and everything?<P>Miaka

miaka,<P>I'll get right down to the short of it. <BR>Do you think your H is having an A still/again? Do you think that he has been advised not to tell by your pastor? Have youtalked to your pastor regarding your feelings about your marriage?<P>cleo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Do you think your H is having an A still/again?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know, something's not right. I can *feel* that he did something in the past, but I don't know about now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Do you think that he has been advised not to tell by your pastor?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do think he's been advised not to tell me, but by her, I don't know. I know his mother would definitely tell him to shut up about it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Have youtalked to your pastor regarding your feelings about your marriage?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To tell you the honest truth, I feel like I crushing under the weight of my past problems and my marriage problems. Somehow I feel that things aren't going to work out as far as me and him. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it's going to last. <P>On top of that, I'm basically pushing my son off on his grandmother or SIL and BIL because I don't know how to take care of him and he doesn't want to be around me anyway. I don't blame him, though. I'm not totally giving up my son.....it's just that I don't know what to do with him anymore and he needs to be with people who know how to take care of him until I learn how to (if it's not too late).<P>Don't be surprised if I post back here with a horrible update. I feel as though one is coming....<P>Thanks for your concern,<BR>Miaka<P>

Yuki,<P>re e-mail I'll go onto myother screen name after I write this to you and run my own test. I don't give out my Belle address so it's sort of like when you don't call yourself, you don't know what your telephoen number is!<P>Re your list: The only thing that seems like someone with a secret life is about lying about when he's coming home. The rest of it sounds like a selfish, immature boy. Sorry. But I think you know he really wasn't ready to be married. He's awfully young. People are still growing up in their 20's. Some mature earlier, and I'm not slamming your husband, it just sounds like he's immature.<P>I'm not the Delphic Oracle though. He could be cheating but just from that list, I wouldn't say he is.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Ivory:<P>"Your don't-tell advice is directly contrary to the Harley principles."<P>Yes, I'm aware of that. I believe and understand most of what Harley teaches. But I'm not 100% in agreement.<P>Here is when I believe you need to tell your spouse/fiancee:<P>1) You aren't yet married and there are no children and you have an affair. This, because if you have an affair before making a commitment, you aren't really ready for marriage. You need to let your partner know the kind of person they would be marrying. Your behavior pre-marriage is a character issue the partner has a right to know while there is still time to change his/her mind before entering into a lifetime commitment and having children.<P>2. If you have had risky sex (unprotected, with a stranger or someone you have reason to believe could have some STD) and you are sleeping with your SO. <P>This is a life and death and health issue and it would be immoral to keep this knowledge from SO even at the risk of losing them. <P>3. If the affair partner is threatening to "out" you. Your partner deserves the respect of being told beforehand, to spare them the public shock and surpise should the affair partner be cruel or crazy enough to make the affair public with witnesses. If you are both decided to hold the marriage together and work on it, and the affair was a "bump in the road" of your marriage, the two of you standing united is protection for the betrayed spouse.<P>4. If you have impregnated another woman, well, that's not going to remain a secret forever. Wife needs to be forewarned, it's cruel not to. (See above, pubic humiliation.)<P>5. If you are a woman who has become pregnant via an affair, and the OM threatens to sue for visitation or custody, of course you need to tell your H. Morally I guess you would need to tell him you are carrying another man's child. Some men (here on this board) forgive and raise the child as their own.\<P>"Harley teaches that utter and complete honesty is the standard, so that intimacy can be restored (secret guilt doesn't reside in one spouse, blocking affection and romance)."<P>I understand in my head, but how I wish I knew less than I do about my H's EA. I don't understand in my gut. And of course, I could be wrong. After all, here I am hanging out on the MB Site in a loveless marriage, <P>And yes, I feel as I do in spite of Harley's opinion. For the reasons I posted earlier.<P>By the way, did you confess your affair? Why or why not? How are things going with you?<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

yuki miaka:<BR>"<B>Bellevue, your e-mail address doesn't work. I can't send anything to you. Are you sure that's how it's spelled and everything?"<P>Just to check, I e-mailed myself a test message to Bellevue Belle@aol.com and it did come through. I don't get mail at our family mailbox because anybody can read it.<BR>Try again, please!<P>Miaka</B>[/QUOTE]<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess