I need some advice and support. <P>I have posted here before but just to give a quick update. My H started PA with co-worker in Jan 00. He left myself and two girls aged 18 and 15 in March , after 21 yr marriage. He returned for 8 weeks starting May but left again in July, he never stopped seeing her and she was putting the pressure on. He told me she was saying things like ‘I wouldn’t make a good mistress’ and ‘When are you going to divorce ‘xxxx’, etc. Anyway, he retreated deep into the ‘fog’, not seeing his children for 2 months and only one phone call on youngest’s birthday. Finally started seeing them again after I got mad with him about his lack of contact. <P>Contact resumed but only sporadically. He would come only when he felt like it and would walk out the door at the end of a visit without even saying to them that he would call or otherwise be in touch. He told no one at work or even his own mother with the result that his children were often having to lie about his whereabouts. By about Nov. they had enough of it all and asked to move away so they didn’t have to see him again. Not an option, they have lived in the area all their lives are at a good school and all their friends live here. The OW lives about 20 miles from here and although he was living with her full time he rented a house about 5 miles from here, probably for cosmetic reasons, but spent only one or two nights a month there on his own. The children found out she had moved into the area and refused to leave the house except for school and friends homes in case they met her. All three of us went to a radical plan B. Long story.<P>Over Christmas, my youngest began to exhibit signs of considerable distress. I asked her about her father and whether she would like to start seeing him again. She said she missed him very much but she did not want it to go back to the way it had been. For Christmas I received a calendar (2001) and said that it was a nice gift as I was looking forward to the new year, it couldn’t be worse than the last one had been. Youngest immediately bursts into tears and says yes it could be worse - I might die and she would have to go live with her Dad and the OW. Abandonment issues. <P>Talk through with eldest on what terms she would be prepared to see her Dad again. She is open to the idea but insists that contact is regularised, i.e. spend every other weekend with him but no contact with OW. AS she put it, I do not want to spend anytime with someone who didn’t care about the amount of pain and hurt she was causing me when she slept with my Dad. Wise head, young shoulders. No one has to be a genius to work out that in these situations the OW wants the tree but not the branches.<P>So last Friday, I met with H again to ask if he could have the children on a regular basis. He said he has to think about it and how it will effect him! <P>What is there to think about?? His children need him desperately especially the youngest. Do WS in this situation always treat their children so badly? <P>Please help. I need some input.<P>Thanks, <P>

Yes, many of them do. My H has told the children that only two of them at a time are allowed to visit him, because they "bicker" too much. He told me that he will do whatever is necessary to make sure the "atmosphere" in the OW's house is not disturbed. He has called them about 3 times in almost two years. He takes them to dinner once a week, but they are only allowed to visit him one day every 4 weeks - although he told our daughter's teacher that he has her on "weekends." Yeah, right.

quote: "He told no one at work or even his own mother with the result that his children were often having to lie about his whereabouts. By about Nov. they had enough of it all and asked to move away so they didn’t have to see him again. Not an option, they have lived in the area all their lives are at a good school and all their friends live here."<BR> <BR>bells are going off like crazy here, and I am concerned. Why did you encourage your daughters to lie to protect their father?<P><BR>lizpearl

Alias, <P>I didn't encourage them to lie. I asked my H many times to inform his mother of the situation but he refused. I even said I would tell her if he didn't feel up to the job. But he insisted it was his responsibility. In the end I said, either he told her or I would. He did tell her but omitted the bit about the OW. She is now fully aware of the situation and 100% behind me. He still visits her but his current living arrangements are never discussed. I even told the girls they didn't have to lie to cover for him, but they did not wish to betray their father.<P>I just had a phone call from him, he apologised for the way he spoke to me the other night. Wonders shall never cease! It is only the second apology I have ever had from him in the last year. The first was when he phoned me from OW's car and I realised that she could probably hear what we were talking about.<P>

hope257, I think that they HAVE to be putting themselves first all the time, or they would see that the affair had to go...<P>Seriously, I believe that even when they say they have your best interests at heart, they still are putting themselves first. Mine, I think, honestly believes himself when he says he is doing the right thing for me... but if he truly was doing the RIGHT thing, he would be putting the time and effort into an honest attempt at reconciliation.<P>There is nothing more selfish than leaving your wife and family for someone to whom you are NOT married...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

For what it's worth.....here's my 'two cents'<P>I have not progressed as far as your husband, (leaving, that is) But...similar situation with 3 kids and same number of years married. <P>Speaking as a male who is involved with EA, for some time now with repeated failures to break it off, I will agree totally that "selfishness" is an understatment. But please allow me to share this aspect from my POV. When I am in "no contact" mode....I am forced to deal with my sin...my failures...my pain and loneliness that contributed to the EA. <BR>I am sure a BS does not like to hear or deal with this, obviously, but the pain I am tormented with is so intense, that I instinctively retreat to the one place where I find comfort and relief...the "dreaded OW" . It is a viscious cycle that drains the life out of you. <P>The 'spectators' of this drama would say I am in a fog or fantasy world, which may very well be true. But, the pain and guilt is very real. I tend to beat myself up rather severly for all that I have done...and failed to do. It is a prison of which I find no way of escape. Not looking for sympathy here,...just trying to offer another view. I'm sure you've read it all here before.

lighthouse,<P> Not to be mean here, but what do you think you are doing to your family? I`m a BS and I feel you should be more concerned with how they feel than yourself. Why don`t you try to feel their pain and their grief over what YOU have done. If all of our WS`s would think interms of everyone else instead of themselves we would all recover a whole lot faster. I get so tired of hearing what my H just can`t do right now that I could scream. It`s a choice on your part, you can right your wrong by facing what you have done and helping everyone else work through it. Maybe it would give you some relief from your own pain to help your spouse get through hers. My H is trying to do what`s right, I know it is very difficult for him but he has ended the continued contact and we are starting to move forward. Doing something for someone else may make you feel better about you.

Here is my two cents from a WS..but feel like a BS..my situation is soooo much different than everyone else here...<P>I didn't leave my stbx did, a long time ago..<BR>(nine years ago to be exact) when he decided to take a job that requires him to be gone all but 1 weekend a month..I have asked him many times to look for another job..I have even written up new resume's for him and sent them out..but he wouldn't even return the calls to the prospective employers..to see what they could offer him so that he could be<BR>here and be a husband and father..even when I told him about the A..the job and his drinking were more important..even this past summer I'd asked him to look for another job<BR>that would bring him home..He told me then<BR>he has no intentions and never has had any of doing that..so why be married?? So I don't consider myself to be selfish in this situation..he has gone days w/out talking to the kids..as he buried himself in alcohol..<P>He's finally after nine years of working away from home, now working in town, after I told him I don't want him to come home anymore that one weekend a month..<BR>(only for him to be drunk the entire weekend)<BR>and he's living like it's the best thing in the world..he's beginning to spend more time<BR>w/ the kids..but won't take them during the week..and was for awhile only taking them one night on the weekends..and bringing them home early the next day..so he wasn't even spending alot of time w/ them..the past few weekends he's taken them..and he like Nellie's H..has at times only taken one or two of them at a time because they bicker..and he doesn't want to deal w/ it..<P>So I don't see where I have been selfish in this..I asked him to choose between his job<BR>which takes him away from his family 99% of the time..and his drinking..which he did the only weekend he was home..and his family...<BR>he chose the money..and the booze..how do you compete w/ that??? <BR>

Turning off one's "selfishness" has to be hard for a WS. I'm not sure if anyone read my post to Ivory about the time I was tempted by another man while my H was living with the XOW. Of COURSE I wanted to seek out this man's company! He gave me tea and sympathy and agreed with me on every point that my H was the "bad guy." He gave me that "peace" that lighthouse wrote about. But ... this was not "peace;" it was enabling me to not deal with my problems with my H's EMR. He was only a fantasy person, really, not anyone real. I am lucky in that I had my wits about me and realized what was going on in this man's mind, and what he wanted from me. And it was *not* for my benefit - it was for his benefit. I thank God every day that I didn't fall for that line of crap. <P>Someone who has something vested in an EMR, or who is trying to get a married spouse to engage in an EMR will naturally be the "shelter in the storm." They get something out of it! Of COURSE they're going to act that way. Does anyone believe that they would be this "unconditional" if they *didn't* have a vested interest in coming between a married couple?<P>belld

Dear All, <P>Thanks for the responses. Particularly yours Lighthouse. I don’t mean to pry but my H said something similar about being lonely, could you define your loneliness a bit more precisely and what contributed to it. I really would like to get a better insight into what my H is going through.<P>My H has said many times that he can’t look himself in the mirror, that he just wants to crawl under a stone and I am certain that one of the reasons he finds it difficult to spend time with the children is that he has to confront not just their pain but his GUILT! <P>Being with the OW allows him a form of escape from reality, from pain and the knowledge of who and what he has become. The last time I saw him the words of a Beth Orton song ‘living in hell like it’s some kind of heaven’, came into my mind. He looks older, more stressed and his mother is convinced that he is unhappy. But just like a prisoner in jail for many years he has convinced himself that his cell is really very nice. One day he is going to wake up or come out of the ‘fog’ and the reality of what he has done will hit him like an express train. <P>Ilovehim, I think the betraying spouse does know what they are doing to their family most of the time. It just hurts them to acknowledge it. The reason we become so aggrieved is that while they have someone to comfort them through all this we have no one. The person we trusted most in the world, the person who we thought would always be there no matter what is the very person who has hurt us in the cruellest way possible. I totally sympathise with belldandy who was tempted to seek comfort from another man, we can ask the support of friends and family but when you are sobbing your heart out at 3am (and I still do) you want to be with someone who is special and feels the same about you.<P><BR>Hope<BR>

Said by G, my H, the WS - "you do everything to justify your means. Yes, there is no question that I put myself first. You can run but you can't hide forever. It's not what you can say to a WS to get him straight, it's what you can say to get them out of the fog." He says it's worse than talking to a wall - a WS is trying to manipulate things to his side and nothing will make him/her listen/hear/believe... anything until he is out of the fog.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Trying to move on (edited March 21, 2001).]

Hi Hope....<P>I'm not sure if I understand your question entirely...and no, you are not probing.<P>I'm not sure if this makes sense...but somewhere down the line...if married couples don't nurture and continue developing their relationships with one another...."something" weakens in the marriage. You know how the gravitational pull of the planet keeps certain objects in a continous orbit....well...when that 'pull' weakens...and some situation arises that triggers a 'break from that orbit', you find yourself drifting aimlessly through space, so to speak. It's not like you were looking for someone....but without reazlizing it, you drift into someone elses gravitational pull...and "boom", next thing you know, you are involved with someone else...that seems to bring some order back into your life. The orbit is real...the feelings are real...problem is...your life is centered around the 'wrong planet'. And breaking free from that orbit is not an easy thing to do. <BR>Once you do...you still have to find your way back to your spouse...and the trip through the cold, isolated, and dark vacum of space is frightening. You wonder if you can find your way home. You wonder if it will even be there for you (emotionally) when you get back. You feel like you have crossed over that line of "no return". <P>I am not happy about what I have done. I am ashamed...but I know that it happened. Nothing can undo that. And it is soooooo clear to me....that unless a person has been in this place....they just don't have a clue to the struggle that is there...just as I am sure I have no idea what it feels like to be betrayed in this manner.<BR> And if someone's 'straying' was simply for sexual or physical gratification, they have no idea of what I am speaking of here. I can only imagine what pain I have caused my wife since confessing to her. We struggle along...sending out faint signals to one another as I try to find my way home to my 'home planet' and get my life back into 'orbit'.<P>I am sure...whatever I say here, will cause pain and anger and even some hatred by those who may read it, and have been betrayed. <BR>I hope you spare me the 'flaming', I will tell you now...that I what I have done was totally selfish. I also hurt for all the pain I have caused others. <P>But please....I hope NO ONE...feels like I want someone to 'feel sorry' for me. I am not looking for that here. <P>Hope...if possible, you might ask your husband to read this post here and see if he is able to identify with what I have written here. I would be willing to communicate with him if he would like. I'm not saying I am some model of success...yet...but I think it would help him a lot to 'vent' to someone who knows where he is at...and I can assure you, he will not tell you everything...in order to spare you more pain. <BR>Also...check out this article...very insightful.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/health/march99/infid033099.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/health/march99/infid033099.htm</A> <P>Hope....don't lose....what your name declares!<BR> <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited January 21, 2001).]

hope257,<P> I to can understand belldandy. I have someone who I know I could turn to, but I know better. It is very hard to not do it, but I know it would only make matters worse. I sit and cry as well. My H thinks he is doing this great job and I just feel so alone. Some days I feel we are moving forward, but not always. H just refuses to give me what I need. I try to feel happy that he is here and trying as much as he is, but some days it is just to hard. I know our WS`s are going through thier own pain and I feel for them, but I want some feeling for what I have endured at his doing. Why is that so much to ask for?

Dear lighthouse and ilovehim,<P>Thank you both so very much for responding.<BR>Lighthouse, I am sorry if my question is not clear cut, but there are so many different emotions mixed up in all this that I am not sure that I am always coherent.<BR>You have gone some way in explaining your feeling of being lonely but your answer seems to be geared to the feeling of being lonely after you have already become involved with the OW. What I think I really wanted to know, was did you feel lonely prior to your involvement with the OW? <BR>Maybe, if I can probe further, do you feel that the OW was a way to relieve the loneliness or was it something much deeper? My H became very upset when I defined it as his affair, he said it was never an affair it was beyond that. Yet, I myself in my ignorance perhaps, have serious misgivings. Just one week ago he said that he could see himself ending up ‘sad lonely old man’. If this is more than an affair, where does he see the OW being when he is retired or maybe even a few years down the line. Is this a mixed message? Is he trying to keep me as his safety net in case it doesn’t work out with the OW? Do you ever feel that you want your wife there just as a safety net, so you will never have to be alone?<BR>Please feel free to respond to me. I will not lash out in pain or anger. I truly want a better in sight into what my H is going through. I cannot experience his feeling s directly but I am trying very hard to understand. Absolutely no ‘flaming’ from me. <BR>I would very much like my H to be able to communicate with people such as yourself. I think he feels himself very much alone and doesn’t realise that there are many people in similar situations, At the moment, he is living full time with OW. It has been over two months since he has seen his own children. He misses them terribly but he is so ashamed of his behaviour. Before he left the second time, he broke down in tears and promised them he would never leave them again. But of course he did and now can see no way back.<BR>Oh and by the way I don’t feel sorry for you - that would be patronising . But I do feel some of your pain even if it is reflected in a glass darkly.<P>Ilovehim, <BR>Boy do I know where you are coming from on the sitting and crying thing.<BR>Sometimes when you can’t see a way forward that is all you can do. Just be thankful that he is there with you even if he is not there for you. The girls and I don’t even know most of the time if he is in the same country. He travels a lot with his job, and I only get to hear of his whereabouts through his mother. <BR>BTW, if I have read Dr. Harley correctly don’t expect them to show any remorse or sorrow for their actions. Some do and some don’t. But I think if they have any feelings left for you, one day, when they feel fully secure in your love, they will fall down on their knees. Literally or metaphorically, and thank God that you were always there for them. <BR>Hang in there my friend.<P>Hope<P><BR>[This message has been edited by hope257 (edited January 21, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by hope257 (edited January 21, 2001).]

Hope...<BR>Just have a few seconds here...can write more later. But yes...the loneliness was there before the EA began. Just the business of life...probably a bit of MLC, and next thing you know....we meet...and presto...a new friend...and all the typical sparks began to fly. You get close....become friends...and even though it is not right, it is very painful and difficult to just 'turn off'.

lighthouse,<P>I understand *why* you think this way, and the circumstances. Sometimes it's very difficult to step outside of ourselves and see our own behavior for what it is - hurtful and damaging. Even more difficult is to take a step back, look at the "friend," and see their actions for what they are - hurtful and damaging.<P>The gentleman I described was only one in a long line of suitors who were just aching to take my H's place while he was in the EMR. Now, imagine, if you can, feeling almost *justified* in having an EMR, having numerous opportunities, knowing that I probably could have gotten away with it, AND wanting to actually do it - having the desire.<P>But it can be done. Step aside from yourself and the OP. Look at both of you, individually, and your actions, as though you were third parties. If you saw your brother or best friend or someone else doing the same thing, what feelings would you have about it? Would you be disappointed in them? Would you think that they were doing the healthy thing? What would you think of the OP? Think of the things that you'd say to counsel a family member or a friend who was involved in an EMR that was hurting his/her spouse deeply. Then say those same things to yourself, over and over.<P>Remember: you *can* be a better person. You have the capacity to do the right thing by your spouse. Think of the happiness and joy and love you will receive by turning off those feelings for the OP and giving them back to your spouse!<P>belld