Hi All,<BR>This is one of the hardest things that I have ever done. My wife left on Sunday and moved into her own place. THe silence that is in the house now is awful. When the kids are with me it is better, but I really miss her. We see each other or talk almost every day, and the space that she wanted so badly has really been non-existant except at night. She comes to the house on her days off to watch the kids and calls and talks to us on the days she works. I have tried to implement plan A, but she persists in talking about the details of the divorce, (which is what she tells me she wants) and I am trying to slow up the process so that we don't rush into anything. She tells me she is 100% sure that we will never get back together again because her feelings don't change. Well they changed from loving me to not loving me. It is so frustrating to try to meet her emotional needs when she won't have a civil conversation with me. I tried to ask her to do something with me and the kids and she said that she doesn't want to spend any time with me, yet she spends her days off with me after work. I don't understand the mentality. I sure could use a bit of insight into this Plan A and how people keep their sanity!<BR>Mike

Dear mbtrk:<BR>Did the move come out of a clear blue sky, or were there hints beforehand? Are either of you involved with another person? <P>Was there abuse, alcoholism, addiction?<P>What are you doing exactly in Plan A?<P>Have you read all the stuff on this site? Are you informed about what Plan A and Plan B are, exactly?<P>Sorry you are here. I hope you can save your marriage. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Hi Belle,<BR>The move had been discussed since this all came to light in October. She came in one day, said that she loved me, but was not IN love with me and didn't love me the way a wife should and wanted a divorce. I asked if there was anyone else and she said no. The more I thought about it her answer didn't sit quite right. So after some digging, she admitted that she thought that she was in love with someone else. Since that time she has told me thatshe has feelings for him and he has feelings for her, but he is not going to leave his wife and 3 kids. <BR> There is no abuse, alcohol or addictions with either of us. Her major complaint is that I complain about her work schedule, and that is because I think that it takes away from family time as she works every 3rd weekend and then likes to do things with her friendws on the other weekends. Her other complaint is that I never tell her to go out and have a good time. I guess I feel that it would be nice to have her around at home with me and the kids. <P>As far as plan A goes, I'm trying to guess what her EN's are and I'm pretty sure that conversation is one of them, but it's hard to converse with someone who doesn't want to talk to you about anything other than divorce. affection is probably another one of her EN's , but she won't let me near her and I guess admiration is another and I am trying to let her know how much I appreciate and admire her...which I really do! <P>Any helpful hints would be greatly appreciated!<BR>Mike

Hi again...<BR>I guess that in thinking about this for so long now, my guilt lies in the fact that I took my wife for granted. She wasn't meeting my EN's and I wasn't meeting hers. If we ever can get through this, I swear to God Almighty that it will never happen again. I have told her this, but she is hell bent on divorce and won't listen to anything right now. <BR>Mike

Well all...<BR>I got home from work and W is at my house with the kids. She asks me if I want her to leave now. I said no, it's ok if you stay for a while. This is from a woman who has been telling me she wants her space for the last 3 months and also wants a divorce. So she hangs out with me and the kids for the rest of the afternoon. I'm cooking supper and she is hanging around so I invite her to stay. I know that is what she was waiting for. She says sure...if I go home then all I will do is sit by myself. So I finally ask her about this space thing and that I thought she didn't want to be around me?? She said I don't, but I want to be around the kids. I don't quuite buy it all but what do I know? Any body got a better perspective on this?<BR>Mike

Mike<P>Get ready for the rollercoaster ride of your life. If your wife is indeed in love with someone else she will be in a state of confusion like you have never seen, commonly referred to as the "fog" on this site. <P>There will be days when you think you are making progres and others when you will be so disillusioned at her changing emotions.<P>It is important that you make yourself familiar with all the concepts on this site. NSR has a good introductory post that you can pick up at "Plan A, Plan B". <P>There are many here that will support you so come here often and read and post.<P>I am sorry that you haev to be here. Know that you are in good hands on this site.<P>Take Care<BR>Colin<P>

I am a real believer in telling the OM's spouse. It is really amazing if you read past posting how all of a sudden the OM will stop the affair in order to hold on to his marriage. Some will say it is lovebusting<BR>but in many cases the cheating spouse will come out of the fog when they realize how quickly the other person dropped them. Good luck.

I'll make this quick. You need to Plan A. You are in a good situation, because your wife is still spending time with you. Read about Plan A, and if you have any questions, ask us.<P>All the stuff that your wife is doing is classic affair stuff. The best way to beat it is to be the best you can be (Plan A), but to also be up on the rest of the concepts that are explained on this site. Check out NSRs welcome thread. If you can't find it, let us know.<P>You aren't alone, so post as often as you like.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited January 20, 2001).]

Hi Inlimbo...<BR>Thanks for the moral support. If someone had said 3 months ago that this would be happening, I would have said you're crazy. But here I am. I thought that we had a pretty good marriage. Obviously I was wrong. Since I found this site I now realize that there were some things that we both did wrong. I knkow how to work on my problems, she doesn't want to do anything but divorce. The roller coaster ride began back in October. It hasn't slowed down one bit. I probably made some huge errors in judgement and how I handled her before I found out about the Harleys. I just hope that it isn't too late to try and start putting things in place.<P>Brianp...<BR>Believe me...I have thought about telling his spouse many many times. From what my wife told me a couple of weeks ago she has feelings for him and he for her, but he is not going to leave his wife. She still presses for a divorce. She goes to counceling by herself and says that she is there to get help so she can get divorced and deal with the guilt of 2 small children. She has four friends who are supporting her through this. 3 of the four are divorced. One pulled this same stuff on her husband last april. Nice support group huh? Anyway, I am holding off saying anything to the OM wife. I'm not sure that it would do any good at this point.<P>Rick37...<BR>Thanks for the heads up. I have been reading like a wild man since this all began. Even more so since I found this site. Everyone here has been great so far and I really appreciate it. The concepts on this site make more sense than anything else that I have read. I wish my wife would have somewhat of an open mind and read some of the stuff here also. She says that there is no way you can change someones heart and that she is different than all of the other people out there. She told me last night that there is no hope of reconciliation. Why would she put the kids and me through this if she wanted to reconcile? The fog is like pea soup with her. I just asked her if she thought that all people who separated and wanted a divorce had notions of reconciliation when they left? No answer from her on that one. Anyway...thanks for your support. <BR>Mike

Hi All,<BR>I am just posting today because of the I guess that I need to vent a bit. Can anyone tell me why the WS feels that they can come in and out of your life as they please. My wife keeps telling me she wants a divorce, but then says thhat we can be friends and when she has the kids I can come over and visit and/or stay for dinner and she could do the same. It's like she wants the benefits of being married without the responsibilities.<P>How do you stay in contact like that when the pain of seeing her and knowing that she doesn't want to be with you anymore is all consuming. I am trying to implement Plan A, but she says change for yourself, not for me because our relationship is over. Yet she spends a lot of time with me and the kids. I don't understand. If anyone can shed some light on this wierd behavior I'd appreciate it. How can one person tell you that they want space and then do a bunch of stuff that is totally opposite to that statement?<BR>Mike<p>[This message has been edited by mbtrk (edited January 21, 2001).]

Mike<P>"Can anyone tell me why the WS feels that they can come in and out of your life as they please. My wife keeps telling me she wants a divorce, but then says thhat we can be friends and when she has the kids I can come over and visit and/or stay for dinner and she could do the same. It's like she wants the benefits of being married without the responsibilities".<P>The answer lays with the fact that you are still meeting at least some of her emotional needs. The OM that you mentioned previously is meeting others. Your W is in a state of confusion/addiction similar to what drug addicts go through.<P>The reason for Plan A is to show your W on a consistent basis that you can meet the needs that the OM is giving her. Unfortunately whilst she is deep in the "fog" she may not let you meet many of these needs and your attempts to meet them will in the main go un noticed.<P>I know it's no consellation but your situation is a classic. She is telling you almost word for word what my W has said, even down to wanting the divorce.<P>The trouble with our situation and all similar situations you will see on this board is that once an A starts, you as a BS are competing with all the excitment and spark of a new romance.<P>It is difficult albeit impossible for a BS to compete with such a fantasy, this all new, to good to be true feeling. This great exciting life! Fortunately, everything that seems to good to be true usually is. You need to be there when she finally comes to realise that.<P>So .. Plan A ensures that when they eventually come down from this "high" you are shown to be the stable, caring H that now understands what his W needs and is able to deliver.<P>It can't be rushed and takes nerves of steel. Sometimes you will believe that it would be far easier to have let her go. Sit back and enjoy the ride and Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.<P>Keep posting and I wish you well<P>Colin

Hey Colin,<BR>I guess my problem lies within the fact that I don't know where her EA is at right now. I was under the impression that he had said that he wasn't going to leave his wife and that my wife had said that nothing would come of it if he won't leave. I have seen no change in her attitude since we had that conversation 3 weeks ago. So now what. Is it possible that she really has convinced herself that we can not be a couple and as such has decided to just forget about us?<P>She left me a letter at home yesterday that said that she wanted me to be happy, that she was happy and healthy and that I needed to let her go. She was 100% sure that we would never be a couple again and that I needed to move on. She cared about me as a person and as the father of her children but that was it. Is it possible for her to come around even though she has convinced herself otherwise??<P>Could she still harbor some hope that her and the OM will get together after our divorce? What goes through the mind of someone that is willing to throw away 12 years of a relationship like it was yesterdays newspaper and be so matter of fact about it. <P>She says that all relationships aren't meant to last and this one was only meant to last for 12 years. So we can't change the way my heart feels, no councelor will be able to help us so I'm not gonna work on this, I DON'T want to work on this and that's the end of it. I'm doing this for me! There are too many things that I want to change about you, and a 43 year old man shouldn't have to change.<P>Doesn't she get the fact that if you care about someone, you are willing to make those changes because it make the other person happy? How do you get someone to see that?<BR>God give me strength to get through this and help her to see that this situation isn't hopeless and hat there are other solutions to problems.<BR>Mike

To All,<BR>Just an addition to an earlier post. My wife called this morning while I was at work and said her car wouldn't start. So my dilemma was to A)go help her start it or B) tell her to call AAA. I didn't have to do either because she called back and left voice mail that she finally got it started. <P>Now my question is do I help her or not? She wants to be independent, but seems to want to rely on me for certain things. What should I do?<P>My initial reation was to go help her when I had the chance, but didn't want to seem to eager? <P>She also wanted to come to dinner tonight with me and the kids. That is very painful knowing that she is still pushing for a divorce, and where I am at in this relationship which is I don't want one.<P>Is this a good thing to let happen or not? Is it LB if I tell her I don't think that it's a good idea? Please help???<BR>Mike<p>[This message has been edited by mbtrk (edited January 23, 2001).]

mbtrk - help her. She's following a well beaten path of a WS who doesn't know what she wants. Your goal should be to make improvements in your self through Plan A, and as long as she lets you, be her best friend. Don't argue, don't ask questions, and most of all, don't try to engage her in conversation about your relationship unless she starts it, then listen more than talk. Validate her feelings. Don't rush anything. Because you are here, you know more about the physics of affairs than she does. Apply what you've learned. She's gonna flop around like a beached flounder - don't try to react to every comment, every action, every hunch. It's hard, but this is what you have to do. Let go and let her flounder around a bit and expect contradictions and illogical statements. Treat her as someone who has been abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled - don't expect to understand.<P>Get a copy of Surviving an Affair. Read it thoroughly, then read it again.<P>Come to us with questions. Consider counseling with Steve Harley.<P>Good luck.<P>WAT

Hey WAT,<BR>I have an appointment with Steve on Thursday. It will be my second. THe first one was more ground work than anything else. I have a lot of questions about her and how she is dealing with this EA. <P>Is it normal to just throw things away like this? Is it normal to want to have the family life without the commitment to marriage? <P>Should I let her come to dinner on a regular basis? All she seems to want to do is talk about the details of divorce. When I try to talk about anything else, she always seems to bring the big D up. I asked her the other night if we could have just one conversation where we talked about something else and she said no. What do I do about that? She is like a woman who has only one thing on her mind...Divorce and that is the only solution to our problems that she sees.<BR>Mike<p>[This message has been edited by mbtrk (edited January 23, 2001).]

mbtrk - No, it's not normal to want to have a family life without the comittment to marriage unless you run a fraternity house.<P>I expect she wants to talk only about divorce because she's obsessed with her fantasy life which requires a divorce from you to happen. I understand your no win situation, and I don't have a ready solution, but it is important, I think, to keep her around your family as much as you can stand in order for her to see whatever changes you've made in your Plan A. Maybe let her talk all she wants about divorce, she's gotta run out of things to say sooner or later. If she asks you for input, tell her calmly that you're not interested in talking about divorce, then just stop. Another option is to talk about the results of a divorce: the expense, the affect on the kids, the fact that you'll still have to be linked to each other for the rest of your lives through your kids, and the fact that divorces usually don't solve problems - they just create more.<P>I'm sure Steve will have a better answer. But, keep her around to show off your improvements. This is vital.<P>Good luck.<P>WAT

mbtrk-<BR>Hi, I haven't been here long either, but I'm learning so much. Be glad that you still have the opportunity to see her, many people here don't. Even though she says she wants a divorce, she still wants to be with the children-even if she has to be with you too. I see this as a good sign, she's confused-even though all she talks about is divorce. She still seems to have feelings for you-they just aren't as "exciting" as the feelings for the OM are.<P>Maybe don't tell her about the changes you're making in yourself, just show her by your actions. I think most WS's have to figure things out by themselves-if we try to push too much, or tell them what we've learned here it just turns into a big LB. You may need to do alot of listening to her-and it may sometimes be about OM and her feelings for him, just bit your tongue, pretend she really is just a friend talking to you about a relationship that does not break your heart and respond the way you would to that friend. It's not easy & many times it's not pretty.<P>It takes so much paitence, if you believe in it you'll find you've got alot more paitence than you ever dreamed. Read some of the success story posts, they can be uplifting and give you hope. Maybe try to think about it like a teenage child who is making all kinds of horrible decisions with his/her life. Even though they are disapointed & hurt, Mom & Dad still love that teenager, right?<P>You're lucky to have found this site, read here, post here, read the books recommended to you, and pray!! Good luck!

Hey again WAT,<BR>It seems as though my wife just can't make up her mind. She sends mixed signals although she looks at me and says that she is absolutely sure that she wants a divorce and we need to talk about the details of how that is going to work. I am trying my best to be patient and work through this. i can 't wait to talk to Steve. I think that he can shed some more light on this whole mess. i am reading like a wild man and am trying to soak up as much info as I can. I like to be in control of the situation and this one is killing me becausse I have no control over what she does. I just wish that she was open minded enough to read the material on this site and digest it. It makes so much sense. If I had asked her to do that 6 months ago, I'm sure she would have loved it. Now it is just a bunch of info that is totally against what she wants to do and is to be avoided at all costs.<P>Thanks for being here...it sure helps to have someone to talk to about this stuff.<BR>Mike

Hey Bitsy,<BR>Thanks for the reply. I am doing my best and am awaiting my session with Steve on THursday. I hope he can give me some more info and help me on my way. She does want to spend a lot of time with the kids and i see her 3 or 4 times a week. I hope that in time she will like the changes that are being made, although she has already told me she doesn't want me to change for her because our relationship is over. Do it for the kids she says. Why is it so easy for her to give friends that screw her over 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances but the one person that she promised to love for better or worse she can't give a second chance to. <P>I guess I can't give up on her yet, but it hurts to think that she gave up on me and our marriage so easily.<P>Good luck to you and I always like hearing from neew friends. <BR>Mike

Mike,<P>Just a quick note. You've got some excellent advice already. Just remember, this isn't going to make sense to a logical mind. What she does cannot be analyzed by a logical mind. No amount of wondering how she can give up so easily is going to shed any light. It is the fantasy, the illusion, the fog, the excitement, the addiction...and anything else you want to call it. The WS in the thick of it will give up anything.<P>But the fantasies do end, so expect a relatively long ride, and don't expect any sudden statements from her about Plan A improvements, but silently they have an impact after some time. It is one of those things you just have to do and expect nothing in the short term. Make it a long project.<P>Remember, anything you say now that could hint at there being a chance for recovery is likely to be met with a reason why there isn't. They have to justify why they are leaving.<P>Someone has to fight for the marriage....and you are the only one.