Mike -<P>I'm back, checking in. I've read what BR posted, and while not exactly following the Harley principles - it seems to have worked for her.<P>The thing is, your wife says that she wants a divorce NOT because of the EA - then why? Okay, because she doesn't love you anymore. So, why doesn't she love you anymore? Tough question, I'm sure, but when you get the answer to that one - I think you will then have some things "to work on."<P>The thing is, as a WS, trust - believe it or not - is a big issue with me. I know it sounds VERY hypocritical coming from me, but had my H told my parents, my family, my friends about the A - at the time, I would have been mortified. For me, I wouldn't have even recognized - probably - that the EA was even wrong. The only thing I would be focusing on was the fact that HE betrayed my trust. Don't give your wife any fuel for her fire.<P>I am at a very different point in this than your wife - I've come a VERY long way to get to the point where I'm at now. But right now, your wife is trying to justify her decision - take the EA out of the equation - just for a minute (because your wife has in her own way). To her, right now, she probably feels like she doesn't want to work it out, she doesn't love you because first of all she fell in love with OM. The way I used to think, I thought that if I could fall in love with OM, then I must not love my H - well, just not in that "special" way anymore. That added fuel to my fire. Telling people about the affair, etc., I completely understand why BSs do it - so don't feel like I am judging you or anyone else for that - but YOUR Wife may be feeling like Hey I don't love him anymore - now he's running around telling everybody and every one is coming down on me - you're the scapegoat - unfortunately.<P>As a WS you definitely don't want to give her anything else - or any real basis for which she can justify that it won't work out. It;s like a lawyer trying to build a case. Your wife has already reached her verdict (divorce) and now she's just gathering the evidence to support her decision. Don't give her that evidence.<P>And, I know how strange it seems - you've DONE NOTHING WRONG, right? Well, in her "fog" and in her way of thinking right now, you are the one who is doing everything wrong. She may even feel justified in having an affair - because look at how bad you are treating her, or look at HER trust that you've betrayed.<P>To my H's credit - he never had to blow the whistle on me. I do think that once the affair is found out - it eventually dies within a period of 6 months or so. But, if your wife is claiming that it's not because of the EA that she wants a divorce - then you need to look at other things that she is using to "justify" or rationalize her decision.<P>So, your wife is seeing her own counselor. If she doesn't want to talk to Steve, then maybe you could offer to see her counselor - on good faith. Maybe this counselor can help - maybe not - who knows - but you can make a good faith gesture and go, and then see if she would talk to yours.<P>The mind of a WS is very difficult to figure out - so don't try to think in rational terms. She will no doubt come up with hundreds of reasons why she wants to get divorced, but address each one f those reasons.<P>For me, when I thought about my H and why I thought maybe I didn't love him - the big thing was I thought he talked to me like I was a two-year old. Now, I may have acted like a two-year old (once holding my breath until I turned blue was a classic stunt I pulled once to get him to stop talking to me), but I didn't like him when he did that. So, whenever he got this "Tone," I'd tell him "see, you don't even know how to talk to me anymore, therefore you must not love me anymore so why should I love you?"<P>For me, it was like I knew I was a selfish person at the time, but the only thing I cold see was not MY faults, but the faults of the other person. And, my H didn't give me too much to work with - he is absolutely the most patient man I know. But, I would jump on every little thing - andy chance he gave me, I would use it to either make ME feel better or to help me justify to myself that I just don't feel it - we're just too different.<P>See, what I'm getting at? I guess it's what I've been saying all along. Try to be a friend, a good friend. Work on yourself, make yourself a better, stronger person - because ultimately you cannot force her to change her mind and do things differently - you can only change yourself, react in a different way and hope that it draws her closer to you.<P>Whenever I try to tell a BS about how a WS thinks - sometimes, even I think I'm talking in circles. But, what you have to realize, is at this point the WS is only thinking in very selfish terms - she's only thinking about how she feels, what she wants, etc. . .She really doesn't care about how this is affecting you or anyone else - really. But, when other people start coming down on her or support you - she sees you - believe it or not - as the villian. While she's the one who had the EA, and she's the one who brought you all to the throes of divorce - you are the problem, not her. That's how her mind is thinking right now.<P>How do you deal with it? Do what Steve Harley recommends. . .While I have never ever talked to him - the principles on this site have helped me enormously. But, just know that your wife WILL NOT be open to those ideas right now. I think some changes have to occur - and even if she doesn't want to leave you to pursue the OM - she still wants to leave because of other reasons - that's, again, what you need to address.<P>It will take time, though. So, you need to work on making yourself strong - because the road to recovery is not for whimps. You are a very courageous person to even consider going down this path, and I admire that. But, it will take time, patience and perserverence in order to survive. There's not doubt you will survie this thing - either with or without your wife, but try to hang in there for now.

Hi SKM,<BR>Of all the posts that I have gotten on this thread, I think your last one has been the most eye opening. I know that I have a lot to work on in order to make this a safe place to come home to. After filling out the LB questions as if I were my wife because she would not do it, I really had to take a long hard look at myself. I now know what went wrong and would really like the opportunity to make things right with her.<P>I am not usually a patient person, and I do regret a lot of the things that I have done since this all came about. It's amazing home much I can relate to the analogy of a wounded animal and how they lash out at anything. <P>After talking with Steve yesterday, I have to sit down with my wife (if she will even do that) and share with her the things that I have found out about myself and what my role was in the demise of our marriage. This could take a long time as I have found out that there were a lot of things. I am committed to making changes to make me a beter person, and if it is not for her then I hope that my next relationship will benefit from my experience. <BR>I have no idea if my wife will ever get to the point of giving us a second chance. Right now I would say never in a million years, but your post gives me a little bit of hope for the future. <P>My emotions have run the course of being depressed to being angry to ambivalence and back to depression. The meds my DR. gave me have helped, but sometimes the tears flow and I can't stop them. She hurt me by having an EA, but I know that I hurt her too with all the things that I did to make her lose her love for me. Even though she says that she doesn't love me and doesn't know if she ever was in love with me...I know better. You don't marry and have kids with someone that your not in love with. And besides that...she is not that good an actress that she could fake it for that long. <P>12 years is a long time to be with someone and I am not ready to give up yet even though she is. I just wish that I could look into the future and see what the outcome of this is going to be. Any psychics out there interested in giving me a reading??? <P>I love reading your posts so keep trying to keep me on a straight path. I really appreciate it!<P>~Mike~

TO All,<BR>This is a post that I have on another thread, and I thought that it was also appropriate for here.<P>As I sit and reflect on my part in this whole mess, I think about when my wife finally<BR>came clean. She lied up until the time that I provided her with specifics about the OM. <P>You know...the fact that she had an EA really didn't bother me as much as the fact that<BR>she wants a divorce. THe fact that she has given up on me and that she feels that our<BR>relationship isn't worth saving. I can forgive her without hesitation for the EA. It's the fact that she isn't even willing to try to repair our marriage that I am going to have a hard time forgiving...<P>I feel like yesterdays newspaper that she is casting out with the daily trash because she<BR>has gotten tired of it.<P> ~ Mike~

mbtrk - your wife is like many others you'll read about here - including mine - that are not willing to try to repair their marriages. I have already forgiven my wife in writing for the hurt she caused me, but, like you, I may not be able to forgive her if she walks away without trying. <P>Please share all your ups and downs for the potential benefit of the rest of us in similar situations.<P>WAT

Mike - <P>This thread is getting really long, but I just wanted to post one more thing. I know I've posted this in the past, but I had a friend who recently got divorced. I was very close to my friend and her H. My friend and I were more like sisters than we were "friends." When I found out that she and her H were spearating - it didn't come from her - it came from her H. I don't know why - to this day - that my friend didn't tell me first, but she didn't.<P>At any rate, all of our friends were shocked to learn about my friend's desire to get a divorce - supposedly out of the blue. So, one night I invited my friend up to talk and we had a long heart-to-heart conversation. this conversation took place long before I found this site, but ultimately, I just wanted my friend to be sure of her choice to get divorced from a very kind person. My friend was married to a guy who never once said an unkind work about anyone. He was fun to be around, athletic, funny, everything, really that you'd want in a H. He was very family-oriented, etc. . .<P>When my friend and I were talking, she said that she just "wasn't in love with K anymore, in fact, she never really felt like she loved him at all." Looking back on this statement - I think it's a bunch of BS. his girl dated a fair amount in college, she knew her H three years prior to getting married, and was married for four years prior to wanting a divorce. Now this friend is not one to go along with the crowd, or make hasty decisions. So, when she said that she doubted that she ever loved her H, I just couldn't believe her.<P>Eventually, my friend and her H went for counseling and unfortunately, they ended up getting divorced, but I still couldn't believe what she had told me.<P>I think all of us - when things aren't going so well in our marriages - we tend to look back and only see the negatives. We never really remember the good stuff, because all we see is the bad. When things aren't going well, we tend to question , well, gee I don't think I ever loved him. It was like my friend made the decision that she didn't love her h now and she doubted that she ever really loved him. Now, I can't speak for my friend, but I know that her and her H had some good times, and I also know that she wouldn't have spent all of the money on an elaborate wedding if she didn't really love her H.<P>Right now, I see your wife, kind of doing the same thing - saying gee, things aren't going so hot right now, I don't think I love him now, and now, looking back on it, I never really was happy. But, I think it's all about perspective. And your wife, just sees the negative. I seriously doubt that you are all that bad, and that your marriage was just a farse. But, it's not me you have to convince .<P>Try not to get down on yourself. You're a good guy, you're trying to get better. You shouldn't get too down on yourself. Even though my H said numerous times that there must have been something that he did or didn't do to push me away from him. But, really, it took both of us - to get our marriage in such a vulnerable state - and it will take both of us to repair the damage.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by SKM (edited January 26, 2001).]

Hey WAT,<BR>You know that when I mentioned to her in the beginning that we should try to repair our marriage, her responce was that I have tried for 10 years and I don't want to try any more.<P>How can she justify trying when she was the only one who knew that there was a major problem? I thought that it took two people to try. <P>My take on that is that she just doesn't care anymore and she is justifying her decision to leave. It's very sad, because I know that the reasons she is giving me are not that hard to correct or make changes in. <P>I'm sure the OM and her EA have let her see that she can have that initial "PITTER PATTER" of the heart again, but what about committment and the vows she made to me. What happened to for beter or worse and trying everything that you can to do the right thing with your spouse???<P>I am crushed by her actions and my heart is in so many pieces right now that I sometimes feel that it will never be whole again. I sometimes wonder if love is worth the risk of having to go through this pain...<P>~Mike~

Mike, I've skimmed through most of this thread, and it all looks so eerily familiar to me! The things your W says to you, the feelings you're going through, her telling you that her feelings can't change, etc. <P>I think the only advice I can give you is to focus on yourself, and give Plan A time to work. Remember that Plan A is about YOU, not her. My STBX was saying all the same things your W was saying about 6 months ago. I've changed a great deal in these past months, and STBX is now seriously doubting her decision to leave. It took a long time, but I've learned a lot about what was missing in our marriage, and she's come to the realization that our marriage wasn't really that bad. <P>It may be too late for me, but try to stall the divorce proceedings as much as you can...just don't look like you're stalling!<P>Another thing that worked for me was to resign myself to the fact that she was already gone. I found out early on that I was "holding on too tight," so to speak. So I lived my life like divorce was inevitable, and there was no hope of reconciliation. That attitude helped me to focus on myself, and not so much on my failures as a husband.<P>

Hi Mike:<P>I just love SKM's posts. I always pay special attention to what she has to say.<P>As for me - I can't really tell you how you survive the pain. For me, 2.5 months into recovery, the pain is getting WORSE, not better. But I have been dealing with this affair for over a year - like many others here, you should be prepared for a long journey through this mess. <P>I know I took care of myself. I was pregnant and had big health issues. I focused on fixing the things about me that needed fixing. And I did my best not to push him, not to start fights and to let go of him.<P>I truly wish I had known about MB early on. I would have handled things much better. Please understand that the things that worked for me probably would have worked better if I had known about love busting and the other principles.<P>Maybe we have recovery IN SPITE of all the love busting I did. Who knows.<P>His affair started in Nov 2000. He moved out March 1, 2000. His last contact was Dec 12, 2000. I don't even begin to think that we are through this - most days I doubt our recovery status. But it was not until Dec 13th that he said: I want you, I want our marriage, I want to try.<P>The best advice I can give you is to listen to Steve Harley. Everything he has suggested to me has worked great! <P><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited January 26, 2001).]

Mike - I could have written those words last July. We know how you feel. If you haven't seen your doc about anti-deps, do it soon. They will help tremendously.<P>Your wife has said the same things many other confused wives have said. It's uncanny how similar they are. Buckle down and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can do it. Try to look at the big picture and long term. You'll go nuts trying to react to every current in the river.<P>Come to us to vent and share adventures - we'll be here and soon, you'll be giving advice to us.<P>WAT

SKM, CJACK, BR, WAT...<BR>I don't know where you all are in terms of location (I'm in Maine and it's pretty darn cold) but I feel that you all and others have become like an extended family to me. It' amazes me how people pull together and help each other out in time of crisis. I hope that all of us can survive the hands that we have been dealt and get through this in one piece. <P>If anyone would like to come to Maine for vacation...you will always have a place to stay!<P>I don't know how I would have made it through the last month if it wasn't for all of you. Your advice in invaluable and I cherish every word. <P>I will listen to Steve and hope for the best. As I am only into this a little way I tend to get impatient. I need to relax and not panic I guess. <P>When my wife talks of divorce, it sends pain through my heart and knots to my stomach. I am just waiting for the day that I will get papers and that could be soon. <P>She told me this morning that she was going to file if that was the only way that I would come to terms with what she wants. I said someone has to fight for this marriage...I guess it has to be me. A major LB apparently to her, she got really mad and said that I needed to quit denying the fact that our relationship is over. And that she was going to file ASAP. Whether she does...I don't know.<P>I'll try to calm the waters when I see her tonight when she drops the kids off.<P>Thanks again...you guys are the best!<BR>~Mike~

Hey Everyone!<BR>You guys are gonna love this. When I got home from work tonight my wife was waiting at the door and asked me if the councilor that wanted to talk to her was the guy that wrote the books that I had been reading. I said no...it's his son. She said that anyone that does counciling on the phone is crazy because the councilors are all quacks that are just trying to take your money. There was no way she was going to talk to anyone on the phone. Anyone that was reputable would not do phone counciling. <P>I laughed and said that I was sorry she felt that way, but I felt it was helping me. She said ..."Your sick and need help"!!! You need to talk to someone that is going to help you realize that this relationship is OVER!!! Not talk to someone that is going to try to help you win back your wife. It will never happen!!!! I said I'm sorry you feel that way. Once again the line was "Your sick and need help...I want a divorce... and you better talk to someone who can help you!!! I'm not in love with you!!!! <P>Boy...talk about angry and bitter... geeeeez.<BR>How do you Plan A that ?????<P>~Mike~

Tell her that Steve Harely would probably be happy to meet with her in person if she wants to fly to Minneapolis

Mike -<P>Darn, my H and I went to Maine last year for vacation. We went to Bar Harbor, Boothbay Harbor, Portland (saw a Portland Seadogs game), and Ogunquit. We've always talked about going back sometime . I LOVE Maine. I vacationed there as a kid, and if I could, I would move there in a heartbeat - even though I'm sure it's very cold right now.<P>Try to stay warm, and think about going to your wife's counselor - the good faith gesture that I mentioned. Maybe her and her counselor can both explain it to you - how she's not in love with you anymore - and then Steve can help her to understand that she can fall in love with you all over again - if you're willing. She just doesn't sound too willing right now - just hang in there and Plan A the best that you can!

Hi SKM and other friends,<BR>I'm not doing a very good job at plan A. My wife came to the house this morning to get the kids because they are with her this weekend. As soon as she came through the door, she started in wwith the lines that I have heard a million times already. I'm not in love with you and you need to deal with it. No councilor is ever going to help us because I don't want to be in love with you. It's over. Get help for your next relationship. <P>I snapped and said that I felt like she was throwing away something that she had no use for anymore. That I was used for 10 years and that now that she was tired of me she wanted to just throw it away. She said that she was never "madly, passionately in love" with me and that she "settled" when she married me. I was a nice guy and would be a good father, so she married me. Now she realizes that there is more out there and she wants to find it.<P>Talk about getting kicked while your down...<BR>I said to her (and I regret it now) you are not a very nice person if you did that to me.<BR>You should be in Hollywood and up for an Acadamy Award for the longest acting job in history. Oh well, it felt good saying it at the time. <P>I think that I need to learn to bite my toungue. She also said that she wanted a strong man for a husband...not one who holds on to someone that doesn't love him. She thinks that if I was strong...I'd let her go and move on. Maybe she is right... I thought all along it was because I loved her. <P>This has not been a good day so far and I think I need to go do something physical to relieve some frustration. Why do I let her suck me in like that???<P>~Mike~

Hi All,<BR>if you read yesterdays post you know that it was not a very good day. The kids are with there mother and I miss them a lot. <P>Today is much better, although the silence in the house is deafening. I am more focussed today on what I have to do.<P>i'm not sure why I let her suck me in and then lose my composure, but if anyone has any ideas on how to keep a cool head when you really want to kick someone in the a@#,<BR>I'd love to hear them <P>I won't see my kids until tomorrow afternoon and that is when, I'm sure, my wife will start in again on the divorce issue. I would love to have one day when we could sit down and talk about something else. <P>I'm not a big conversationalist, but I would welcome the chance to talk about anything but divorce with her. <P>if I am going to do an effective Plan A, I need to get a grip on how to not get sucked into her alien infested, warped sense of what is the best thing to do! And keep my cool so I don't LB and wreck what I'm trying to do.<P>Ooh well...enough rambling for now...If anyone has any words of wisdom or encouragement I would love to hear them...<BR>Thanks to all<BR>~Mike~

Hi All,<BR>It's Monday morning and I now have a big pit in my stomach knowing that my wife has been away with the kids all weekend and I'm going to have to face her this afternoon after our blow out on Saturday.<P>I am not looking forward to it and slept maybe 3 hours last night. Why is she doing this? The OM has told her that he is not going to leave his wife, and it made no difference that I can see. I feel anxious and somewhat paniced by the thought of actually having to get a divorce from the person that I was going to spend the rest of my life with.<P>I know that I need to focus and settle down, but it is really hard when all I can see in the future is a life without her. She has made it perfectly clear where she stands right now and that is no way, no how, is she ever coming back. <P>I could really use some positive feedback to help overcome this low I'm in. <P>Anybody have anything nice happen to them this weekend?<P>~Mike~

Mike - have you seen a doc yet about anti-depressants? They can get your mood back in check.<P>We've all been there - feeling like this is some nightmare we'll wake up from. If the OM info is really true, this is something in your favor - maybe your wife hasn't accepted it yet. Don't be tempted to contact OM's wife, as this my drive him away.<P>She sounds real sure of her self right now. How early is she into it? The fog may be at it's thickest. As you've read from others, these WSs aren't known for predictability. Try to stay calm and assume it'll probably take many twists and turns before it's over. Look long term - if you try to react to every input, you'll go nuts. Try to stay just a little crazy like the rest of us.<P>Dave

Hey Wat...<BR>Nice to hear from you this AM.<P>I am on Antideps and man I can only imagine what it would be like without them, if I feel this way while I'm on them! After Sat. Morning, the rest of the weekend basically sucked. I missed my kids, I missed my wife and our house seemed so empty that I had to get out and go someplace else for a while.<P>I don't know the dynamics of an EA or how women react to things like that. I found out about the EA in October and I believe that he told her about not leaving his wife in December. Assuming that she isn't lying to me again.<P>Unfortunately, they work together at the hospital and she won't remove herself from the situation. She told me once that it wouldn't do any good to do that. Nice reasoning huh???<P>My worry is that for the first 2-3 months of this I did major LB ing because I was devastated and didn't know about MB. So now I'm trying to recover from that. She sees my wanting to reconcile as being weak. Why would anyone want to be with someone that is not in love with them? Quit being so needy...you know all the lines I'm sure! She says she wants a strong man!<P>I see it as being strong and having some conviction about my wedding vows!<P>How do you successful Plan A ers keep your cool in the face of adversity? I just want to kick her a** when she gets like this. <P>~Mike~<BR>

Mike - I can't call myself a successful Plan A'er - yet. Hopefully I will be able to in the future.<P>You ARE being strong. If she thinks you're being weak, is it because you lose your composure and break down whenever you have a conversation? If she thinks you're being needy - change your attitude. You cannot come across as being dependent. You can demonstrate your strength by sticking to Plan A and correcting those LBs you recognize from the past and being your own man. This may take a long time to sink in, but she will notice.<P>How do Plan A'ers keep going? For me it's feeling good about myself that I have made improvements and getting positive feedback from my son. It's sharing info with others on this forum in similar situations. It's learning about the dynamics and lifecycles of affairs - knowledge is strength. And finally, it's knowing that whatever happens, there's only one way to go - UP. Things can't get any worse, so they have to improve. I'm excited about the future. Either my wife rebounds and we start a new marriage together or she doesn't and I find a new partner who appreciates me. It's a win-win situation. Sure, getting there is hard and hurtful, but you have no choice.<P>Dave

Dave,<BR>Your last paragraph says it all. It is a win-win situation. It is just very hard to see it that way sometimes. <P>When you have invested 12 years in a relationship and really truly thought that you had found the one person that you could spend the rest of your life with, and then they blow you out of the water...it sucks. I feel like my whole marriage was a joke. "I settled"...what the hell is that. It's like saying I couldn't find anyone any better at the time, so I guess you're good enough to marry.<P>Jokes on me I guess. The hard fact is though...that I love her and I hope that someday she will love me back the way that she is supposed to !<P>~Mike~<BR>