I would really appreciate it if WS on here could help me by trying to answer two questions:<P>(1) How do you feel about all the deception that is part and parcel of the situation of an A. Is it reasonable for me to ask H how he feels about it ? I ask because i feel he suffers enormous guilt and embarrassment about all the lies and I want him to understand that this is part of the "shared baggage" we have inherited from this - it is not my intention to hurl accusations at him but I want him to acknowledge how he feels.<P>(2) How do you feel about the snooping that the BS almost inevitably does. He MUST know I do it. Should I acknowledge it. <P>Thanks<P>R

I don't understand your first question. It does, indeed, sound like rubbing his face in it to me. What do you mean about wanting him to <B>"acknowledge how he feels"</B>? For what purpose---to help him deal with it or to take satisfaction that he is suffering "enough"? When you say you <B>"want him to understand"</B> it sounds more like you want to be sure he iis hurting to the same extent you are.<P>I hope none of these things are true, but perhaps you can state it more clearly.<P>As for the <B>"the snooping that the BS almost inevitably does,"</B> you really wouldn't know what other BS's do, would you? Many do not snoop. Snooping, if caught, would be a Love Buster and would not further the cause of trying to restore the marriage. <P>Ivory

RoseBrook<P>The deception is probably one of the most soul destroying events during the affair. You are constantly inventing new situations, excuses, or for want of a better word just plain lies to try to cover what it is that you are doing During the heat of the affair you cannot see this, but after the guilt is so painful, and just knowing what you have done to your partner to cause this amount of pain. I believe that the WS does need to talk about this as they are also hurting. I have accepted responsibility for my actions and in no way blame my W for me going off to have an affair. As someone said on one of the other boards there are NO excuses, but there can be reasons. Whichever way you look at it, it does come down to making choices, and in my case I did not make the right choices. I could have done other things to try to make my marriage right, but iinstead CHOSE to have the affair, basically running away from the issues within my marriage that maybe with some good communication would never have happened in the first place.<P>The WS will have to live with the guilt of what they have done for the rest of their lives, just as the BS has to live with the hurt of what was done to them. I have come to terms with this and do regularly talk to my W on this matter.<P>The snooping is part and parcel of this whole ugly situation. I as a WS should have expected that my W if at all suspicious would be snooping to see what she could find out. This is human nature I believe. If we suspect our partner of doing something that may hurt us, then in a good marriage with communication and honesty it would be a point of deiscussion to alay any fears that they may have, but in the situation that most of us here find ourselves in that trust and communication is usually gone, so snooping is the resulting behaviour to try to fish for information. JMO<P>Lizard

Thanks for helping me understand these difficult issues.<P>Ivory - you are quite wrong. I do not want to "rub his face in it". I genuinely want to understand the pain that I know he is suffering (because he has told me) and help him feel that he does not have to wear this the rest of his life; I want to know how I can best support him as I hope he will support me, through the bad times. And, I have been on this board for quite a while and read many of the posts without responding - from what I see, "snooping" is pretty common; and something no-one is ever proud of. I simply asked fpr advice as to whether, in the spirit of honesty and openness I should acknowledge it and promise not ever to do it again. I dont want him harbouring suspicion about my behaviour anymore than I want to be suspicious of him. Sorry if my questions confused/offended you.<P>Lizard - thankyou for your willingness to share your views. These are difficult questions for me and I am trying to sort through what I can do to be most constructive in my attempts to begin the rebuilding - if I am given the chance to - and tonight I dont feel too confident that will be the case. I am anticpating the "end of the road" approach - and I expect to hear again the words he used before "too much has been done and said"; I would like to share with him my willingness to "do the hard yards" with him - if that is what he wants.<P>Thankyou<P>R

Rosebrook, the lying and deception go with the territory unfortunately. I can't even begin to tell you all the stories and excuses I concocted during my A - and had no hesitation to do so. People who become involved in an affair become masters of deception b/c it's the only the A can continue without discovery. The magnitude of the damage I'd done didn't even register with me until d-day . . . then it was if a light had come on. When I snapped out of it, I felt sick over what I'd done to my H.<P>As far as the snooping, I believe that every BS must be doing it b/c they're not going to get any information from the WS who denies everything. My H did everything he could to find out the truth and I still wouldn't come clean. He finally had to resort to tapping our phone to find out what he needed to know, and I don't fault him for it.

I'm not very good at giving advice, but I can tell you how I felt as a WS. <P>I understand your husband's guilt about the deceit. I had a very hard time in initial recovery just "living with myself." I didn't know much about forgiveness, I couldn't answer the "How could you do this to me?" question. Each example of my lies and deciet made me feel so inconsistent and shameful. For a basically moral person, doing something they know is terribly wrong is very hard to live with. Others in this forum have provided good advice about guilt (which is a good thing, it helps us remember what we did wrong and take responsibility for our behavior) and shame (which is very destructive and can eat you alive). Read about guilt/shame at: mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap6.<P>I had to actually learn to accept that there were reasons for my behavior (unmet ENs), and although not in any way excuses, these reasons help the WS view their transgression as a terrible mistake. As a wiser person than I has pointed out, the action does not define the person. I had to really work at accepting (I still struggle with this a year later) that a basically moral person, a good person, can do a terrible thing. <P>Ideas that have helped me, are that I did not do this <B>to hurt</B> my H, I did it <B>for</B> me. And the idea that the person involved in an affair is like an addict. You can know what is right/wrong and your addiction can drive you to behave (lies, betrayal) in ways that are totally out of character. This is in no way an excuse, but it is an element of human weakness and behavior. <P>As for snooping, at first it made me irrationally angry. Probably because I still was fearful of having more stuff "found out." In retrospect, I believe it was justifiable to be snooped upon. I was not trustworthy. How would you treat a child? The snooping also helps your addict to behave, sadly enough. Knowing I'd get caught was another line of defense in helping resist contact with OM when I still felt weak (in the fog). <P>My H and I turned a corner when I could honestly encourage him to snoop, to prove I was being honest and had nothing to hide. But honesty is very important, and I think you really should tell your husband about your need to snoop. Try to get him to understand that you are not trying to catch him, but that you are seeking reassurance that he is being loyal. <P>I am in no way a professional. But I suggest you consider your H potential for depression. Is he in counseling? He might need professional help, if he is williing to seek it, to work through some of this.

AloneAlot/Susie7753<P>Thankyou so much for sharing. You have helped me although I find it really hard to come to terms with the fact that my h who is very "straight" lied and lied and lied - and now vacilates between total depression (but wont seek help) and then seeming like he wants to pretend nothing ever happened. <P>One of the influences on this seems to be a certain group of new "young" friends who i dont realy know - some of them are friends of OW and they seem to live a very up-market life style - many of them are divorced or separated and affairs seem pretty common amongst them. OW is one of this set but single. Once my H would not have given them the time of day - now he hangs out with them (occasionally) - and they are generally very much younger than him. <P>I know I am digressing but i am beginning to wonder what it is he is seeking in this almost schizophrenic lifestyle. Maybe one of his big difficulties in coming back to me is leaving that lifestyle. My point being, it may not just be the affair that has caused this madness and deceitful behaviour. Maybe it is something much bigger. Maybe he is really seeking a complete lifestyle change - escaping the humdrum and domesticity of a long time relationship.<P>Sorry - I am rambling. maybe I am trying too hard to understand something that I will never understand and just should try and stay focussed on helping me and him and us find our feet again.<P>R<P>Sorry to ramble -

Rosebrook, I think you're right about his new lifestyle being a stumbling block to his returning to you and recommitting to your marriage.<P>An affair is usually an escape from everyday life - in short, a fantasy. I know it was for me. When I was in the fog, I took a complete leave of absence from my normal life and my behavior reflected that.<P>If you feel that his behavior is a result of something other than the affair, then that's something that needs to be looked at - preferably with a counselor.<P>I wish you strength. {{{{BIG HUG}}}}<P><BR>