We just talked for a couple of hours. My end of it was that I know now that I've been arrogant and apathetic in meeting her needs. Her end was that she's been begging me for years to give her what she needs. I asked her to try again. I told her that I finally have the tools and the understanding to make this work. I didn't have this before. She says she doesn't have anymore to give.<P>I asked her to read "Surviving an Affiar" so she could understand what I'm doing and maybe see why I think we still have a chance at making this work. She said she would read it, but this is her last attempt at "trying." She also said she wants me to sleep on the sofa (something we've never done in our 7+ years of marriage, slept apart I mean). At first I told her no. So she said she would, and so I said yes.<BR>Help me. What she's saying is that if she can't find anything in the book that can give her some strength to try, she's going to want a divorce. This is it. Is there anything else I can do? <BR>Help.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

wld,<P>Don't give up all hope yet!<P>Now...<BR>...you and I know... and so does your W....<BR>...a book isn't going to change your life... or hers!<P>Not alone anyway.<P>I've recommended this to a couple of others before...<BR>...the fact that your W seems at least a little willing to give MB a try...<P><B>...have her come to this forum</B>!<P>It's one thing to say you have the tools...<BR>It's another to start using them...<BR>...and it's yet another to have a support system like the people on this forum.<P>If she knew of both the MB counseling offered by the Harley's...<BR>...and the kind of support (sometimes kick in the pants) you get here...<BR>...it <I>might</I> help her realize...<BR>...<B>this isn't smoke and mirrors</B>!!!<P>If she read some of the success stories...<BR>...there were 2 new ones this week and others listed in the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000554.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A> post...<BR>...it might help her realize...<BR>...<B>it can be done</B>!<P>Yes...<BR>...you would have to open up and be totally honest...<BR>...as she could read <B>your</B> posts too!<BR>(an agreement where neither would read the others has <I>never</I> worked)<P>Good luck...<BR>...and Plan A away.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Like Jim said, don't give up. Divorces don't usually happen in a flash, and your wife is exhibiting the usual WS/affair symptoms....saying the usual things. "I tried", "nothing left" etc. That doesn't mean it is over.<P>Personally I wouldn't sleep on the couch if it was my spouse wanting to not work on the marriage. I stayed in our bed, and my wife went to the couch, but that lasted a few days, and she started sleeping in the bed again. Not that it did us any good of course.<P>If she is willing to read the book, I'd take a shot at having her talk to Steve. He won't pressure her, but can give a perspective about recovering from a point where you feel there is nothing left. You'd know better whether this is an avenue for you to try. But at least she is willing to try a little. Keep in mind that the fog is thick, and I think it is more common not to want to read SAA at that stage, so this is good.<P>Keep plan A going and hang in there. Don't forget. It is one thing to say you want a divorce, but another to actually go through with it, move out, establish your own life, handle your own finances, bla bla bla. It doesn't happen overnight.

Thanks to both of you. I asked her to check out this forum, and she said she would. It's getting harder for me because I can see her point of view more clearly now. She's tried so hard to get me to get help, but I kept putting <I>most</I> of the responsibility for our problems on her. Why should she trust that this time will be any different?<P>As for the couch...she's got bad hips. If I don't sleep out there, she will and she'll be miseralbe (like in pain). I can't hurt her like that.<P>I do think that talking with Steve Harley would be a good idea, but I'm not sure how she'll feel about it. But I'll ask her. By the way, who is Steve (what's the relation)?<P>Thanks again. This is <B>very</B> difficult right now. I feel like it's slipping away and I KNOW that if we try we can turn this into such a wonderful relationship. I'm feeling a lot of regret.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>Were you alone last night? Could you sleep? I would guess you probably can't sleep much anyway, no matter where you are. I remember lying awake at night for months, replaying the past, over and over. I had almost forgotten that, and your letter brought it back to me.<P>You have been frightened by divorce for some time. How bad was it hearing her discuss it? Can you envision life without her? How are your children doing? They must sense something. Or perhaps not. Ours were pretty young at the time, and the most we got was a little extra acting out. I still don't know quite what they experienced.<P>It is hard to give advice. We each know so little about the other posters here. I agree with the other responses - counselling might help very much. At a deeper level, I think that you have to be ready to let her divorce, and not act bitter or clingy. BUT, I do think that you should ask for more time, and suggest that a decision of that magnitude shouldn't be made in a crisis. (Absolute truth - there is nothing disengenous about saying that).<P>What would you miss most if she left you? How would you remember her? Do you think that you could manage co-parenting? Are you frightened about custody arrangements?<P>And what do you think that she is feeling now? Incredible confusion? Guilt? Self-hatred? Desire for a happier life? How does she act around the children?<P>I know, in a posting like this, most people say - "Don't worry. That is great that she is going to read the book. I have heard of marriages in much worse condition that turned around." And they are right. But you must be hurting deeply, and no truths can cover that over right now. Best to face it, and then act despite it.<P>As for advice - you sounded bitter when you wrote: "My end of it was that I know now that I've been arrogant and apathetic in meeting her needs. Her end was that she's been begging me for years to give her what she needs." I suspect that is far from the full story. That the emotional state of your marriage prior to her affair was also of her making, and not only the result of your actions. But it is a good place to start. I listened to my own wife's complaints, and finally understood things that had bothered her for years. And I vowed to change them. I think that I have been succesful in that, and it is now a year and a half later. That effort was essential for our marriage, and it took months and months for her to accept it. I think that part of the reason why was that she had lived so many years feeling frustrated, that no quick promises would cover over that past. And part of the reason was probably also that she had seized on my own inadequacies and failures to justify her behavior and her belief that our marriage was dead. That belief was probably much less painful for her at the time than admiting her own partial responsibility for the emotional situation. And she certainly didn't (at the time) admit that the affair had anything to do with her feelings for me. Though she has admitted later that her relationship with other man did affect our marriage. (We don't talk about it so much right now. I would like to revisit certain subjects, but we also need time just to enjoy each other and our family, and are overwhelmed by children and careers. Life continues to be full of trade offs).<P>And so, for you, I would advise that you focus on what she found unfulfilling in the marriage, and that you accept responsibility for that, with no ifs, ands or buts. And do everything in your power to fix it. Her own failings will naturally come out and be corrected over time, if you take the lead in changing. Eventually, she will want to do her part and accept her responsibility. Don't accept blame for what she did, however, nor try to get her to accept blame. Leave that topic until later.<P>Is she still in contact with the other man? I would guess she is in agony, trying to choose between love and family. What she might not be able to see (no one in an affair seems to see this), is that this is a false choice. Depending on how you each act, she could remain in your marriage, and end up with both love and family (that is your goal). And there is a strong likelihood that if you divorce she will end up with neither love nor family (at least not an intact, happy family). But she can't see that, and you can't force her to understand. She must be extremely confused. Hence, a counselor would be great.<P>If she is continuing contact, then I don't know what to suggest. Talk to a counseller yourself. I certainly don't think that any marriage has much chance of healing while the other person remains a part.<P>And here is one note of hope - it sounds as if you two have been talking. Talk, and talk and talk more. As much as you can. Provided she is willing and you can handle listening to her. After all, anyone who has an affair via phone and internet must have a deep need for conversation. (I faced the same situation with my wife. And finally learned how terribly important talking and listening were in their own right for her. We certainly talked in the past, but our marriage had weakened at that point when we began to talk less because of children and MY schedule. And she turned to other people, women at first (a healthy response, since we all need friends) and then to the other man).<P>Also, you wrote that she and the other man share a common interest. I know almost nothing about your wife. But your previous posts have suggested a few ideas. Maybe there is some truth in some of them. I will throw them out for you to consider.<P>First, she might also have a very low sense of self-esteem. (Very common for people in affairs). Sharing compliments in her field of interest with the other man might help her feel better, more important. Perhaps she doen't feel that you appreciate her. Or that you take her for granted. (My wife certainly felt this. She told me so. And she was wrong about it; I respected her and cared for her in many ways. But the important thing here was her perception, and the actions of mine that partially justified that perception). If that is true, you need to begin appreciating her and complimenting her, in sincere ways, on a daily basis. Simply telling her that she is wonderful probably won't do. It is the details that matter. <P>Second, has she been a stay-at-home mom? Some women seem to lose their sense of identity in such a position. Children are wonderful, we both love ours deeply, but spending all your time caring for them while your spouse gets to enjoy a career and children can be extremely frustrating and embittering. (Somehow, my wife never understood how much the pressure of trying to earn money and pay bills and provide financially for our family took out of me. But then again, I was reluctant to tell her, because I was embarrassed to confess my fears of not doing an adequete job). If she has been at home, her affair and the other man might represent, for her, a way of defining her own identity, her own self. She might not be able to articulate this clearly, but if it is true, you need to plan how to change your marriage so give her interests or career equal weight. (Of course, that shouldn't include the other man). Talk to her. Ask about her hopes and goals and fears and frustrations. And try to envision how you can help her to realize her dreams. (Not her dreams about other man, of course). Probably nothing that I did in the wake of my wife's affair was quite so important as realizing how burnt out she was from being a full-time mom and keeping her own career on hold; when I realized this, I promised to treat her goals as equal to mine in the future. And I have. This change has meant fewer hours at the office, and greater risks for my career. Also much more time with my kids, which has been very rewarding. And learning new skills and slowly working out new arrangements.<P>I wish you and your wife and children well,<P>StillTrying<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StillTrying (edited January 22, 2001).]