How does everyone else feel about living with a WS who never shows remorse? My H has shown some, but I think that's only out of self-pity at this point. I honestly cannot say that I will stay with him unless I see actual remorse from him. <P>Why?<P>Because someone who could hurt someone they love so badly and never feel or show remorse for it is, in my book, a sociopath. I don't want to live with a H who doesn't regret his EMR. I don't want to live with a H who never recognizes the pain that he caused me. If he can do it to me and not feel remorse, what else is he capable of? Physical abuse? Murder? Killing our children?<P>A person who "kills" another person's heart can kill off other parts of them, too. I'm still following Plan A, but at this point, it's going through the motions and just acting the part. My heart will never be fully into it until he feels and shows remorse. And I'm not willing to wait another year. I'm giving him until the end of May, at which point if he still refuses counseling and still wants to shove it under the rug, I'm outta here.<P>belld

Belldandy<P>I appreciate that it is difficult when you have suffered so much pain. You feel that you are due some respect by your husband showing some remorse for his actions. This is a perfectly understandable emotion.<P>Hoever in SAA it states that the WS rarely exhibits such remorse. It further states that it is better to get no apology whatsoever than one the WS feels forced in to giving.<P>I guess the bottom line is where do you want the relationship to go from here? If you feel that you can't accept to move on and try and rebuild without remorse shown then the only option is to leave, but remember your husband has decided to stay and rebuild the marriage.<P>In comparison to a lot of others on this board you are miles ahead in that regard.<P>I truly believe in the Harleys principles. In so believing I take some responsibility for where my W (WS)is at the moment. <P>If we get back together, whilst it would be very satisfying to get an apology, it will be low down on my list of priorities. The main priority will be to fullfill her needs and try and affair proof our marriage. <P>Just my humble view.<BR>Colin

Colin,<P>Thanks so much for understanding. My H could show me his remorse in many ways. I have taken responsibility for his EMR - 100 percent of the responsibility, that is. He still claims that if it hadn't been for me and me alone, none of it would have happened.<P>He refuses to send the no contact letter. Refuses to change all contact information, and the XOW is still calling him, sometimes 3-4 times a day. He doesn't answer the calls, but yet he continues to let this torture me. He won't receive mail at our home, and no one calls on our home phone - he uses his cell phone only. He refuses to get a joint credit card, a joint checking account, or anything that normal married people do. I have a feeling that he wants to put himself in the situation that should he have another EMR, it would be easy.<P>The fact that he refuses to do these very simple things, like receive mail at our home, is very telling to me that he's hedging his bets with another future OW, paving the way, so to speak, so that I can't find out anything about it. When I showed him the list of things that he could do to make me feel more secure, he literally became infuriated, kicked the list out of my hands, and told me that I was being "unreasoable." <P>How can anyone do Plan A with such a blatant set up for another EMR?<P>belld

BellD<P>I don't fully know the background to your story, but I certainly now understand more about your frustrations. It seems that your H has not fully recommitted 100% to the marriage as you say.<P>All the signs are there, refusing to change phone numbers, private mail address, continued contact with OW, etc, etc.<P>I can relate to all that, as this was the situation when my W decided SHE wanted to reconcile after a 6 month separation. This broke down because of similar issues to yours. She has now chosen to make a life with the OM although she is as yet to leave.<P>The big mistake I made when we got back together was to do so without a proper plan in place. An agreement for all the issues similar to that which you have raised and a firm commitment including one of joint counselling. As a result the A reignited due to contimued contact (by the OM) and the rest is history.<P>It seems that you are in a similar position. I am not sure that you have ever been separated, how long you have been in Plan A, etc. But I do agree it seems that your H is trying to keep his options open. In other words have his cake and eat it too.<P>I would strongly suggest that you contact the Harleys and discuss what actions to take.<BR>I would keep up Plan A in the meantime. Certainly don't give your H any time limit as an ultimatum.<P>Unfortunately you must continue to be the strong one if this is going to work. If it doesn't at least you will have done your best.<P>Take care.<P>Colin <p>[This message has been edited by inlimbo (edited January 22, 2001).]

Is and apology necessary?... No<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a (wayward) spouse, it is not recommended to have a reluctant apology (page 84 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Painful as it is...<BR>

Apology necessary, no but nice.<P>However all the others that you listed are necessary for recovery to begin. I too made the mistake a yr ago to let my H come back without setting up a plan BIG MISTAKE! If he refuses to even listen to you, kick him out. Talk to the Harley's or someone. Just wait & see what happens between now & May but you might tell him again how important the items on your list are to you. By the way you should be able to block OW from calling you home #. I think it is in the front of your phone book that gives directions on how to do this, as now overseas I can't go & check it out.<P>Good Luck. Remember you have come this far, you will be all right. Hang in there.<BR>

Belldandy, I can't imagine how your H doesn't feel any remorse after what he's done. I'm the WS in my marriage and I feel nothing but remorse for what I've done to my H. I feel I can't apologize enough for the pain I've caused him. I'm having a very hard time living with myself.<P>As far as the no-contact thing, your H must make it clear to OW that it's over and that she mustn't continue to call him. I have no intention of contacting my OM ever again - I've caused enough pain to my H already and wouldn't even think of adding insult to injury.<P>You and your H need counseling. Why has he not wanted to go? I don't think my H and I would have a chance at rebuilding without it.<P>I wish you strength. {{{{Hugs to you}}}}

Belldandy,<P>You are such a tremendous source of inspiration for me and my husband. It pains me greatly to hear that you are going through such a horrible time such as this. Is it possible to talk to your husband and lay it all on the table? I realize that ultimatiums are only the last resort, but, I could not imagine not doing whatever it would take to make my H safe.<P>Not that I am picture perfect in all that I have done since the discovery. I still lash out in anger. My pain, directed at my faithful H. I hate when I do that. I'm not making excuses for what I have done, I just have a hardtime accepting what I have done, and I say and do very bad things. I hope to work more diligently on this. <P>I will pray for you Bell, as you have helped so many. <P>PJ<P>

inlimbo: I agree that all of the signs are there of a continued affair. I don't think that it's with the current XOW, but I do think, as I stated that he's setting himself up for future possibilities. Or that he's just using our home as a temporary crash pad while he decides when he's going to dump me next. He practically admitted as much last night to me, when he said that he didn't ever want to be in the position he was in before when I allegedly kicked him out of the house before. (???)<P>sing: Yes, I know what my mistakes were. I should not have allowed H back into the house until he made it clear that he was going to take full responsibility for the EMR and until he showed me, tangibly, that all communication was cut with her, had his mail forwarded to our home, took phone calls here, etc. He has put me in a ludicrous position that no one should be in. But he is and always has been a person who doesn't understand a lot about how to make a marriage function properly. He has some very, er, unorthodox views on it; to me, his idea marriage sounds more like two roommates that get together and scr*w occasionally.<P>Susie & PlainJane: Hearing this from you means so much to me. I cannot possibly express to you how much it warms my heart to have your support. As I stated, my H has always been a very cold and dispassionate person. I had been seeing a counselor so I could learn to deal with his BPD behaviors and still remain sane. I've had three psychologists and one psychiatrist tell me that my H is exhibiting sociopathic behavior, and I have to consider at this point that he might be a sociopath. I've heard too many bad stories about him from other people who are no longer his friends about how callously he treated them. I guess what I'm trying to say is that now that I'm able to look at him without the blinders of being "in love," I see what kind of person he is. And it's not the kind of person that I like, or want, in my life. In terms of having morals and values and most importantly, exercising those morals and values, I'd rate him about a 3 on a scale from 1-10. <P>I just need someone with more of a conscience, I guess. It's not just about the EMR anymore, it's about everything that he is, inside. I'm not liking the real person I see. He's not as bad as he was when he was having the EMR; he's merely gone back to the person he was before.<P>belld<P>

Perhaps a VERBAL apology isn't necessary (for some people), but as bell dandy mentioned, there are a lot of ways to show remorse. If a cheater isn't sorry on some level, why would they stop cheating? What is the personal incentive to repair the damage they caused if they aren't sorry they did it?<P>I agree with most everything the Harley's say, but I don't think they ever said that the betrayed didn't have to be sorry, just that they didn't have to state it verbally.<P>Anyway, SAA is not the Holy Bible.<P>Peppermint

I too wanted so bad for an Apology. But the day she did say she was sorry that she hurt me I actually felt bad... I didn't like it.. I often wondered why... As best I can describe it is she felt bad... I hashed on this and it hurt her... She knew she did wrong and by me wanting an apology I continued to let her hurt over it. So in the end I felt guilt for wanting this because it hurt HER.. Don't know if that makes much sense but I really don't believe it will ever give you the satisfaction you crave... Just my thoughts... Crick

I was a wayward spouse once, maybe 10 years ago. I ended my first marriage over an emotional attachment to a young man six years younger than myself.<P>The remorse that I have felt has totally consumed me at times. At first, months after the marriage was over, I was just shaken up, confused, depressed (I was ditched by my love) Then, slowly, the understanding of what I had done began to dawn on me--I worked hard to pin the blame on other parties, but years after, I see that I was deceiving myself. I am fully accountable for what I have done.<P>It took being cheated on myself to completely understand every facet of the situation that I caused. Now I know.<P>Yet, I have never apologized to my first husband and I am preparing to do that soon, within the next couple of weeks or so. If I can get him away from his wife to talk to him--she's very jealous and she hates my guts. Then he will know the remorse that I did, and do, indeed feel.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited January 22, 2001).]

peppermint, you wrote: "If a cheater isn't sorry on some level, why would they stop cheating? What is the personal incentive to repair the damage they caused if they aren't sorry they did it?"<P>That is my concern. I can sense remorse, even if it's nonverbal; even if it is shown in actions. Working on the marriage and doing whatever it takes to make the BS feel safe and secure and respected and *loved* is what I'm looking for. My H is trying, God bless him. But he still blames me for everything that led up to the EMR. His words were something to the effect that I'd made the marriage so bad - yup, only me, not him, no way - that it was inevitable that he would have an EMR w/ XOW. Once he gets to the point where he stops blaming me and takes sole responsibility, that will be a start. But right now, I'm bearing the burden of his guilt and his sins and being made to feel as though I rightly deserved it. I understand that this is part of his borderline personality, so I try not to take it too personally. I know that his thinking is skewed due to a mental illness. But it still doesn't stop it from hurting.<P>belld<P>