I am confused. My husband loves me a lot but not the deep love we both want. I love him this deep. My husband the WS says he would not be here if he didn’t feel like he could love me this way. He won’t get help, doesn’t think he needs, that he can handle it on his own. I asked for him to get counseling with the Harley’s but said no. I am going to get an appointment for myself and hope he will join in.<P>I really do love my husband, but I deserve to be loved the same. He is still somewhat in withdrawal. Recently he found out what the OW is really like. She said and did several things to show him this. He said he feeling for her on a scale of 1-10 is a 4-5.<P>Also my husband said that he feels he can feel this way. We are best friends. We have a lot in common with interest in recreation and a lot of fun together. He said to me how bad he felt for hurting me and telling me how he feels. It didn’t upset me, because I knew he didn’t love me the way I love him. This must be hurting him inside as well. I don't want to waste his or my time on something that won't ever happen.<P>I am concern that I am will start to love him less and move our separate ways. He doesn’t want this. I am meeting his needs. <P>I guess my question is, maybe he never loved me this way and never will. Is it really possible for him to never love this way, but enjoy everything we have together as best friends? I can’t live this way. <P>I hope I haven’t confused everyone with this post! This hurts so bad. Maybe I am the wrong one for him.<P>Thank you<BR>Judy<BR>

Talk to Steve Harley. The whole "love" thing is something that he is very good at putting into perspective. Did you do the EN questionnaire. I'd suggest that, and if you H won't fill one out, fill it out as though you were him. Given that you are both wanting the marriage to work, you are a big step ahead of many on here.<P>Not everyone has the same perception of what love is. Maybe the EN questionnaire will help you meet more of his needs. I used to think I didn't have specific "needs", just to take care of my wife and children, and be with them. But that was wrong. We all have needs, and I know what some of mine are now, more than before. Does he know what his are, and do you know?<P>Keep in mind that if he is in some withdrawal, he won't be totally on the same page as you right now. In any event, I'd really suggest talking to Steve.<P>

Rick37~<P>I am going to talk to the Harley's, however the EN questionnaires have been completed, not thinking it would make a difference, but my husband did it verbally with me. I know what his needs are that is not the problem, just confusing on the love issue.<P>I appreciated your input and help.<BR>Judy<BR>

Hi Judy,<P>I am sorry to hear of your sorrow. Please do follow through with Steve Harley, it could make a world of difference. I wish with all my heart that firestorm and I had used the Harley counseling after the first Dday. I truly believe there would never have been a restart to the affair if we had.<P>Rick is absolutely right about Steve explaining exactly how to regain those feelings, but IT WILL NOT HAPPEN WITHOUT A SINCERE EFFORT. Too many people here just wait around thinking it will "happen". It won't, you have to both work for it.<P>Ironically, we have been experiencing something similar, except in reverse. I know that i am still harboring a lot of hurt and resentment that "blocks" those in-love feelings. But with Steve Harley's help, we are working through that. I hope you can too.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Hi again,<P>Something I forgot to add. As long as your husband still has feelings for another woman, he won't get all of those feelings for you. Steve Harley will help with a plan to increase your love for each other to help "push" those OW feelings out of your relationship. It is well worth the money, is not as expensive as face-to-face counseling, and is a lot more private. Perhaps your husband WILL join in once you begin, but even if he doen't, you will benefit.<P>Peppermint

Peppermint<P>You are such a sweetheart. I appreciate your thoughts on this. I agree that as long as he has feelings for OW he is uable to love me as he wants too. That is the confusing part for him. He really wants to be with me. <P>I am thinking since I do not have the perfect body (Size 10) that the attactiveness is a big thing. He tells me that is not not a need but a want for him. He states that it is a luxury, like owing a big screen TV.<P>Hugs<BR>Judy

Judy,<P>Okay, so an attractive spouse is one of his ENs. I get that. Are you doing your best to meet that need, and how are you doing with the others? How is he doing meeting YOUR neeeds?<P>I really think Steve Harley can help both of you get to where you want to be. He is doing it for us.<P>Peppermint

Peppermint~<P>I am meeting these needs, he said that I am meeting of all his needs. I take good care of myself and my looks. He has told me several times that I have he has noticed the improvements on my looks. I would wear comfortable clothes with him before D-day, but now I make darn sure that I look good all the times. Except first thing in the morning, but I shower and clean up. I do this for myself as well, because I enjoy and feel better about myself when I look good. He has told me he enjoys looking at me and touching me. His desire is very strong.<P>As far as meeting my needs. The affection, and honesty is not being met. He knows these needs but it seems forced when he meets them. I have told him that I forced myself on meeting his needs at first. But now it has become a good habit and it happens naturally.<P>I am frustrated and getting to a place that I will start withdrawing from him. I want our marriage, but we both deserve the love we crave so very much.<P>I don't know if I am the right person for him. He really loves me I know this just not the passionate love he misses when the relationship was new. Maybe I am kidding myself and believing he can love me.<P>We both want our marriage and everything along with it. I know this is the reason we are trying so hard to save it. <P>Judy<P><p>[This message has been edited by bighope (edited January 22, 2001).]

Hi Judy,<P>You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess my question is, maybe he never loved me this way and never will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My husband never loved me this way until last year. Even if he never did, he still can...<P>I would suggest doing the questionnaires the way the Harley's had us do them. You each take 45 minutes to fill them out, then each explain their own for 20 minutes.<P>When it's just verbal, we all tend to not dig as deeply.<P>FHL and I both believe (from things she has posted) that his meeting your needs is maybe even more important to his feelings than what you do.<P>When we begin to really invest ourselves in someone, the feelings often follow.<P>I believe honesty is a matter of decision not feelings. My h made the decision to pursue finding the feelings with me and knew the first step was a DECISION to be totally honest.<P>Affection is a bit harder. My h and I also saw it as a bit "forced" at first, but it slowly got better. Now, he enjoys it and seeks it for himself sometimes.

schizzo~<P>Thanks for your response.<P>My husband is a great person and father. I know my husband wants our marriage as much as I. I truly believe if we didn't neither would have stayed in the marriage. I will ask him about the EN quesionnaire's to fill them out.<P>Thanks<BR>Judy<P>

Bighope (Judy) -<P>Since you asked. . .<P>You're correct, my H and I never went for counseling - either with the Harleys or anyone else for that matter. In some ways, I really think it would help, but we're doing pretty good right now, so unless something happens (or doesn't happen the way we want to) we'll probably just keep plugging away at this ourselves.<P>As you know, I am the WS, so I can kind of see where your H is coming from. My H and I have been in recovery for almost 10 months, so perhaps, I am just further along than your H. I think that your H is probably still in withdrawl, and the reason I say that is because he still has feelings for the OW. On a scale of 1-10, a 4-5 is still pretty strong to me. For me, at this point, I wouldn't even say that the OM is on the scale. If you wanted to measure how much I think about the OM, it's probably a 1 on a scale of 1-10 (and I think it's a 1 just simply because it has only been less than a year that this whole mess began, and I still come on this site, and that alone makes me think about the OM - but not in a bad way).<P>So, I agree with Pepermint, that while he still has some feelings for the OW - it will feel like (to him) that he will never love you or have the old "in love," intense feelings that he felt he once had.<P>It's strange. During the A, I never stopped loving my H, but it became like a kind of platonic love - like we were best friends, but there was no passion. He'll probably hate me for writing this, but for a while, it felt like we were no more than brother and sister. Now, I'm the kind of person who likes very passionate kisses, and just prior to the affair - actually, I don't know when it started - but somewhere along the line, what I really remember, was that the passionate kisses were replaced by little pecks here and there. You know how when you're little your mom makes you kiss your brother on his birthday or something? Well, not only did it feel like I was kissing my brother, but it felt like my mom was "making me do it."<P>I know I'll probably get flamed for this story, but that's how bad it was, and keep in mind that my H and I had only been married for three years prior to the A - so while we were very "passionate," while we were courting - something went terribly wrong - fast. At the time, I didn't know about His Needs, Her Needs, I just knew that I didn't feel the same way about my H.<P>And, after the affair, after I had experienced those intese, lustful feelings for another man, I doubted that I could ever feel that way about my H again. BUT, the one thing that I did, was I made a total commitment to my H to try and work things out. For the first 4 months or so, I really doubted that it would work out. I mean, I loved my H, but I still didn't feel "it."<P>My H and I both read His Needs/Her Needs. It was a deal that I made with my H. I told him that if we didn't go to counseling, that I would at least want us to read the book and do our own homework. And, for a while, reading the book and talking about needs helped.<P>There's a couple of other things that I think happened, to help me re-capture those in-love feelings. The first was very early on - when my "taker" was way out of control. It seemed like my H was doing all of the giving, all of the work to try and meet my needs, but I didn't lift as much as a finger to meet his needs. <P>So, after we identified what his needs were (and what mine were), I really started to try and do those things that my H wanted. And, even though His Needs, Her Needs, by Harley says what the top five are NORMALLY for men and women - we found that we did not fit the stereo-typical definitions. I like affection, don't get me wrong, but my H scored higher on that need. I always gave him little cards, little notes, presents for no reason,etc. . .but he also likes hand-holding, "PDA" and other signs of affection. I also found out that his need for conversation was way higher than my need.<P>So, the first thing that helped us was reading and understanding the principles in His Needs, Her Needs.<P>Okay, read the book, and I was still thinking about the OM - sometimes thinking that I would never get those "intense" feelings for my H - that maybe we were just "opposites" that we weren't meant to have this wonderful romantic kind of love. But, instead of "settling" for friendship, (with help from the people on this site)I decided that my H deserved better than that, and I deserved better than that.<P>When things really started to turn around was when I started doing things to meet my H's needs. And this wasn't just about having sex . I would send him little emails, plan special dates, buy him romantic presents, etc. . .Things haven't been 100% perfect, but one time, shortly after I stopped wallowing in self-pity and decided to have a positive attitude, my H and I made love for the first time in a long time.<P>In a matter of about 4 very stressful months, I went from feeling like I was kissing my brother, to feeling like the world had stopped and we were the only ones in it. I cried because I was THAT happy, that content. I felt that spark again. And, I knew, that if I felt it once, I could feel it again.<P>So, I think reading His Needs, Her Needs helped. I also think that doing things for others - meeting their needs - actually did two things - it made my H happy and that in turn made me happy. So, having an outward, versus an inward focus helped me. But, also, the choice of attitude helped me. I loved my H enough at this point to know that I didn't want to leave him, that I did love him on some level - so I just had to stay focused on the positive, focused on those things that I loved about my H.<P>And, I prayed a lot . From the way I describe things here, you'd think that my H and I have had a happy ending - and maybe we have to some extent - but it's not over yet. My happy ending will come say fifty years from now when we're both sitting in rocking chairs on the front porch watching our grandchildren play in the yard - and knowing that we loved each other more on that day, and found more comfort in each other that day, then on the day we got married.<P>When I got married, I was very naive. I thought you put on the white dress and your H carries you off into the sunset - end of story. Well, that was just the beginning of the story. My H and I have our ups and downs, but the main thing is that we try to talk them out or work them out right away, now. And, as far as kissing, I finally found out that if I enjoyed it that much that maybe my H would enjoy it, too. So, sometimes you have the little quickies, but that doesn't mean you can't kiss all the way through it. <P>And, I know I'm being pretty open here, but it's like an awakening that I cannot describe. On the way in to work this morning, my H and I had a little tiff - not a big thing, but I can be pretty cranky in the morning. I was upset with him and he was with me, but I never once thought about the OM, I never once thought that I wouldn't go home with him, and I never once thought that I didn't love him as "a husband."<P>I think, for me, I reached a point when I finally got a handle on my emotions, and I got a handle on my life. My decision was to stay with my H - at first, I thought it would just be platonic - but later, you realize that it can be so much more than that. You realize that you both deserve more than just platonic love. I love my H as my best friend, but I also love him as my H.<P>It's like leaving home. In my mind, I guess, I walked out of my marriage for a short time, and thought that I could never go back or recapture what I once had. I even doubted that I even loved my H to start with - that we were compatible when we got married. In my mind, I questioned why I had the affair, maybe I didn't love my H - and I had shut the door and locked my H out. <P>But slowly, I've be able to walk back in the yard, unlock the gate, up the porch stairs, open the storm door, knock, and have the door open again - and if you can get to that point it's an absolutely wonderful feeling.<P>But, I would have never taken that first step back home, if I didn't trust in God. There were many times that I felt like I was "just going through the motions." But after you go through the motions for a little while - you start to discover that you don't mind going through the motions, in fact you discover that you like going through the motions so much that it's not even going through the motions anymore - you really believe what you say and what you are doing. (And, you even said that, and I'm confirming that as a WS, it happened for me, too.)<P>My H and I are both kind of goofy. We talk about everything, make up silly games, ask silly questions - but it has helped to creat a special bond between us.<P>So, I don't know if this helped or not. For you, I think about the best thing you can do right now is to go for counseling yourself if you feel that you would benefit from it. Be patient with your H - I don't think you'll just suddenly fall out of love with your H - but you both definitely need to keep trying to met each others needs. <P>But the main thing - even beyond meeting needs - that helped my H and I - was open and honest communication. We've both been at our lowest points - there's no way we could get any lower - there's no worse thing you can possibly say than to say that you had an affair or to say that I don't know if I love you anymore. We've been at the bottom, and the only way to go when you're on the bottom is up.<P>Your goal shouldn't be to have a perfect marriage by tomorrow, by next week, or even ten years from now - but you should have fun trying to get to that perfect state. You're going to laugh, you're going to cry, you're going to be happy, sad and even mad along the way, but you can build a stronger relationship it really is possible.<P>I think, all too often, people want to know how they can feel a certain way - give them the top ten things they can do to make their marriage stronger - or the top 20 reasons you stay with your H or the top five things you like to do on the weekends. It's like we're looking for someone to give us the answers - instead of finding them ourselves. What's worked for me and my H may not work for you and your H. But, if he's willing to meet your needs, if he's willing to try - that's half the battle.<P>Judy, I know things look really bad right now, and you're very discouraged. But this is something that you cannot fix overnight. The one thing you have going for you is that you both are willing to try, right? So, just relax. Look at each day you have together as a gift, a chance to love each other even more than the day before.<P>From my perspective, a lot of my marital growth has come from personal growth as well. I think if you compare me to the type of person I was a year ago, I think you would find that I am a much more patient person. I am definitely not as judgemental as I was before. I try to act with more compassion for other people, try to identify with their problems/concerns. I am more open, I am definitely more honest. I am more willing to talk to my H about things that concern me - in a productive way - versus a non-productive or whiney way (I can be pretty whiney and high-maintenance).<P>And, I feel like I am a much more confident and self-assured person. Genuinely, I am more happy now than I was a year ago. I am not quite as selfish as I was before. I think I had these qualities all along, but I lost sight of them. I doubted myself, I doubted my H, I doubted even the Lord. Hope goes a long way - and I got that from my faith in God.<P>In Charles Swindoll's book "Strengthening Your Grip" he says that "the single most significant decision I can make on a day-to-day basis is my choice of attitude. It is more important than my past, my education, my bankroll, my successes or failures, fame or pain, what other people think of me or say abbout me, my circumstances or my position. . . .[Attitude] alone fuels my fire or assaults my hope. When my attitudes are right, there's no barrier to high, no valley too deep no dream too extreme, no challenge too great." The author also says that the choice of attitude is yours to make. "Bitterness or forgiveness. To give up or to go on. Hatred or hope. Determination to edure or the paralysis of self-pity."<P>Some things in life you cannot change, you just have to perservere, endure and have faith that it will all work out. So, I guess, the thing that I'm trying to say, what this whole post is about - is the importance of your attitude in rebuilding a stronger marriage. If you believe that it can happen, it will happen. Just try not to worry about things that haven't happened yet (i.e., that you will fall out of love with your H - or that your H will never feel "in love" with you).<P>Personally, I think you just need a little more time. While I never went for marital counseling, I do believe the one thing that truly helped me was strengthening my relationship with God - at that's the area in which I think I have grown the most - and that has spilled over into the other aspects of my life. I have learned to put my trust in God. And, I no longer worry about things - it's kind of amazing. Sometimes, I think we spend too much time worrying and not enough time laughing.<P>This was REALLY REALLY long, but if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. You and your H are in my thoughts and prayers.<P>

SKM~<P>Thank you, thank you so very much. I had already forward this page to him via email prior to you responding. I will print this out and let him read your response.<P>Your words will help. <P>Judy

Hi Judy,<BR>Considering I had to ask for advice very recently on a very similar thing, maybe I'm not the best person to give advice But then, it is the carry-out of the advice that I usually have difficulty with, not what to do.<P>I think in my case, my emotional swing can happen very quickly. I can feel strong and hopeful and a few bad thoughts/memories/triggers later I'm ready to quit.<P>From your post, some good things for you to concentrate on:<BR>--Your husband thinks he can love you the way you want to be loved.<BR>--the lessening of his fantasy of the OW & withdrawal are happening.<BR>--he is remorseful.<BR>--you are best friends and enjoy each other's company.<BR>--he is communicating with you.<BR>--you can go to counseling by yourself...he may join you, he may not, but you can help yourself this way.<BR>--he really wants to be with you/he wants your marriage as much as you do.<P>Nice list... <P>Now, about your needs...are you spending the 15 hours a week together? This is one of the places we fell down over the holidays and since. And it wasn't that we weren't together, we were...but among other people or in activities that don't encourage communication--watching football (what happened to both the Rams & Broncos?), movies, with the kids. <P>And, we do better when we're upfront about what we're needing, for me--conversation, affection, attention--for my H--admiration, domestic stuff done, recreational time together--and not feeling bad/sad because it isn't happening. Once you both speak the EN vocabulary, it is easier to ask, I think. It would be nice for us each to just *know* but I suspect this is part of the rebuilding.<P>It was kind of funny, after our big blow-up last week, it was very quiet between Guard and I. I wanted to keep my blasted mouth shut, he gets quiet when he thinks. We were in the car, silent, and suddenly he reached over and started sliding his hand through my hair--something I love (affection) that he has rarely done. I actually jumped because I was startled, and I felt a flow of love toward him. Of course, the old lovebank was pretty empty and it physicaly felt like how you feel on a hot, thirsty day & you take a drink. <P>Touch is very powerful, and something you can start all by yourself.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Lor~<BR>I feel very lucky because we do get at least 15 hours a week together. We have kids, but none together. They go to their perspective parents several times a week and we have time alone.<P>You have been helpful in reminding me to look outside the box and see all the positive with our marriage.<P>I guess I need to be more patient and give time a chance. We are in rebuilding about five months this time.<P>I feel very lucky to have the chance to recover and my husband never left. <P>Rams & Bronc's - that is a story in itself.<P>Thanks,<BR>

Judy,<P>Boy, did I identify with what SKM posted. It was very well expressed!<P>BTW, if you e-mail this thread, it will create a link so that each time he accesses it, he will get the updated version.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It seemed like my H was doing all of the giving, all of the work to try and meet my needs, but I didn't lift as much as a finger to meet his needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We went through this with me doing all the giving. It seems the WS are a bit slow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And, even though His Needs, Her Needs, by Harley says what the top five are NORMALLY for men and women - we found that we did not fit the stereo-typical definitions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me either, h sort of. Although, he has discovered how much he enjoys conversation and affection. Would he rerank them today or are all ten really important?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But the main thing - even beyond meeting needs - that helped my H and I - was open and honest communication. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This was a first for us - to be able to talk about everything without being defensive.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From my perspective, a lot of my marital growth has come from personal growth as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This was also very true for both of us - lots of personal growth. I think I was a few steps ahead, but he has been growing by leaps and bounds.<P>I worked very hard to meet his needs, but the real changes seemed to start when he made big changes to his schedule and lifestyle that allowed him to give us and the kids the time we need. We had tons of conversations for hours and hours.<P>But he still didn't seem to be in-love with me and I fretted as you are.<P>But I believed we could get there (I think he did too) and one day it just felt different, like he really was in-love with me.<P>So yes, hang in there. Keep doing the right things. Do fill out the questionnaires in writing to see if either of you missed anything.<P>Oh, and for some reason sex was great after those long heart-wrenching talks...<P> <P><BR>