Kevan, glad to hear you're doing better. You know, I used to accuse my H of checking up on me all the time (guilty conscience) when sanity (which was fleeting during the A)told me that all he wanted to do was help me.<P>Guilt seems to lead to anger and guess where that anger is directed. I was angry with my H all the time, particularly if things weren't going well with OM.<P>I'm surprised that she resents you checking up anyway, in light of the situation. I expect that my H will do that for a long time, and I have no one to blame but myself. I can't assume that he's going to trust me just because I'm committed to working on our marriage . . . trust takes a long time to rebuild.<P>Hang in there, Kevan.

kevan - hooray!! hooray!! hooray!! <P>OK, about the "snooping"...I've been there. It is so hard not to because you are not going to feel for a long time like you are getting the straight scoop about OM. Even when at some point, she will be straight with you. I've been there, got the tee-shirt, and album full of pictures and return tickets. It was one of the hardest things for me to fight, especially when I would keep discovering new lies and deceptions. But, it has to go...you can't get right with yourself when you keep reinforcing and reminding yourself about what went on or is going on.<P>I hate to admit it, but I very occasionally still snoop when I suspect something is not right. At this point, it's my problem not hers. I've only been caught a couple of times, but you wouldn't believe the panic and nervousness I have felt when I worried about being caught. So, do better than me...don't do it for relatively minor things, only when you have clear and strong suspicions of major transgressions....<P>Keep up with the cards and small tokens of appreciation and affection. W has every card and letter I left for her during the tough times. I remember that lostva did the same and was surprised to find that her H read every single one. It is a quiet, subtle way to reinforce the connection. Just remember to try to always choose cards and write letters that emphasize the positives. How much you love her and appreciate her...quiet celebration of any progress the two of you or she has made, etc...<P>Plan A is not guaranteed to save your marriage, but it's going to give you the best possible chance...<P>About the business trip, for about 6-7 months after d-day, I did no business travel after requesting this from my boss. The first few trips were very, very hard for me, as W and OM would always talk on the phone when I was away. It changed from a major pain for me to a minor one once I accepted that I couldn't prevent her and OM from doing anything.<P>I'm telling you from experience that you have a very, very rough row to hoe, but you can do it and you will be a much better person in the end....Don't make some of the mistakes I did...I probably delayed our recovery by several months...

To all you guys, Mike, Suzie, Heartpain I really dont know how to thank you for this support. Suzie, you are really keeping my faith up in myself and in what can be accomplished and I know it can be done.<BR>It has been six months of hell since my son discovered the affair, mind you more like nine months of hell after I first discovered the lingerie. There must definitely be something going for our marriage if we are still together after this time period even with this all going on. This is also one of the reasons that I am so determined that it has gotta work out. Firstly I am physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted and also had enough of the runaround (I know, a lot due to my own ignorance).<BR>Out of respect to my wife I didnt tell anyone until now, but know I should have done something a lot earlier than this.<P>Thanks so much for all the advice, it is really keeping me going and inspiring me. <BR>The next few days are gonna be very busy with my wife's friends staying with us, but it should be enjoyable and am sure it will also help us to get our minds onto something different.<P>Thanks guys, we gonna make this work.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heartpain:<BR><B>kevan - hooray!! hooray!! hooray!! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Feb 13th<P>So, no matter what I try now, it is to no avail, she has made up her mind that she is leaving and going back to SA to her demanding, selfish, hard-headed mother who has basically manipulated her all her life. So why bother even trying anymore, I am just wasting my energy that I should be using to better myself. <P>She makes me as horny as all hell every time I see her because I am so attracted to her. No, she is not a perfect model but she is definitely attractive especially for her age and even some of my friends have commented on it and have even shown that they would love to get her into bed, even the guy I thought was my best friend finds it difficult to keep his hands off her once he has had a few drinks. I have mentioned this to her, but she says I must stop being ridiculous, he is just having some fun, but I can see how obvious it is, I am no fool. <P>Of course I am the last person she wants to get into bed with now, as I just am not good enough for her anymore and have hurt her so much with my words and actions that she will never warm to me again. She has found someone else more physically appealing that can meet her sexual needs better than what I ever have. I have always felt that I wasn’t giving her enough as I am below average in sexual girth and now that she has found a real man I guess I have lost her completely because she has found that size really does matter and does make a difference. I can see that she would just love to get back with this man and experience some more of what she had with him and is just getting more and more frustrated staying with me.<P>She thinks I am just a useless weakling, as she has already told me that she wants her husband to be a man, not a wimp like I have been the last few years and the last year in particular while I have been trying to cope and keep my head above water and stay employed so as to meet her and my children’s financial needs. Was I so blinded that I did not see what was happening, yes I did suspect things, but surely after all these years of marriage you would think that she would have approached me first and told me where I was going wrong in our relationship, even though I know myself that sometimes I do tend just to ignore things.<P>Every time she talks to me I can hear the anger and how she despises me by the tone of her voice. She has given up trying to be nice to me any longer and just views me as a burden to her life and just feels obliged to be with me until she can get the hell out of this country. As I told her last night all I want is to hold her in my arms and love her, but she said she is going back to SA regardless and I must come to terms with that. Well then, she must go and get herself sorted out whatever it takes, I have had enough of trying to suit her every need, getting frustrated when I cant meet them. <P>I know there is the very good chance that once she gets there she will find someone more suited to her needs. She has proven to herself that she can do it as she has once already in the last year, so why shouldn’t she do it again once I am out of her way? She will have no responsibilities to worry about once she leaves here.<P>I am really trying my best to get into my job but am just being overwhelmed by this all the time and find it very difficult to concentrate on anything.<BR>How I despise the day that this affair came out in the open and that the two of them were so stupid, brazen and careless to sit and kiss each other in Minoru Park in broad daylight and that my son had to see them. This just shows that she has little or no respect left for me and actually did not care who saw them together and was just more interested in having a good time. Some of our friends do use this park occasionally too as a place to relax. She must have been really fed up with me to do something like this, after me believing that she would never do something like this, as even though she used to joke around with our friends often as we all do she always portrayed that she did not like the very promiscuous attitude of the people she worked with. Although I did at the time start seeing that her attitude and level of morality was changing with time the longer she worked there with this bunch of immoral bunch of men. I did, many times try and get her to leave this company, primarily because of the health problems she was experiencing from the chemical fumes but also because of the attitude of the people in the company.<P>How do I get rid of this anger and frustration that builds up inside me every time I think of this guy and what he has caused by seducing my wife? Often when I think about it I get this horrible feeling running through my body like an electric current that is burning me. I think of the two of them making love and I get this horrible big knot in my stomach and just want to die. Every time I see a dark-blue Buick, the same as he drives these feelings well up again inside me. Every time my wife mentions the company or I find paperwork at home with the company name on it, it makes me furious. Every time I drive past Minoru Park I get so upset. I am sure that most of the people at that company know what has happened and are smirking behind my back at what a fool I have been to mistreat such a lovely person as my wife and let this happen. Mind you, they are such an immoral bunch that they most probably think, well done, at least he managed to get in her pants. <P>One of the main topics of interest around that office was sex and promiscuity with dirty jokes being circulated quite often. As an example, even after my wife had left the company, when she re-routed her cellphone account to his Post Office Box address (so that I would not see who she had been in contact with), he dropped it off at the company she is working at presently in an envelope together with a graphic joke of the Bay-Watch girls giving blow-jobs. He called it a ‘little ha-ha”! I find this pretty hard to accept that it is just something ‘innocent’ coming from a ‘friend’.<P>Besides the fact that he is still in contact with her in this fashion, I also find it upsetting that he has the cheek to go and visit my wife at the company she is working at presently. One of our good friends works together with my wife at this company. I have only had the opportunity once to visit my wife where she works presently and she ushered me outside as soon as I arrived without introducing me to anyone. Her excuse was that they were very strict about visitors and did not take kindly to people standing around which seems a bit lame to me, considering that at the previous company she was pretty open about introducing me to her workmates.<P>Slowly but surely all our friends here are finding out what has happened and I am feeling more of a fool and an idiot every day because I know that most of this has been my fault for not giving my wife what she really wanted in life, that is to live close to her mother.<P>What a fool I have been to think that we could ever have been happy here in Canada. I should just have done what she wanted many years ago and moved down to Durban so that she could be close to her mother. Her mother is now suffering from skin cancer, osteo-arthritis and emphysema, although will still not stop smoking cigarettes despite all the doctor’s warnings. <BR>We would have ended up with them living with us and supporting them, as he is just a lazy bum who thinks that we should now be obliged to support him in his old age. As an outsider I find it so difficult to accept that she is willing to go back to the two people who have caused her so much pain and anguish in her life when she was young. <BR>I suppose I am just very insensitive and don’t realize the mother-daughter bond. She has already told me that my sister is taking care of my mother so I have nothing to worry about. Maybe she is right, I should be like my sister’s husband and just accept that I must take in my parents-in-law and look after them? There is a subtle difference here, my parents were always and my mother still is financially independent to a large degree.<P>Yesterday morning I left for work feeling very depressed and was really upset and in tears. This is mainly due to the feeling of guilt that I have for what has happened and what I have done to her and the constant feeling that she is just tolerating me and is sick and tired of my nonsense and that I cannot let go of it. She phoned me a few times at work yesterday morning, but I was very busy and only managed to call her back around 10:30 am. Straight away I could hear the anger, sharpness and resentment in her voice because I had not called her back when she thought I should have called her back. This continued even when I got home last night and no matter how much I apologize to her for what has happened and tell her that I still love her very deeply, she just seems to be ignoring me more and more. She says she cannot take it anymore and I must just pull myself right. I asked her last might how her day had been and she answered, “terrible, what do you expect after walking out of here in the condition you were?”<P>Today, Valentine’s day I bought her a dozen red roses in a vase and a card, and left it on the dining room table as she was still asleep when I left for work. I got a surprising phone call when she got to work, thanking me for the flowers and the lovely surprise she got when she walked downstairs this morning. This is the first time in quite a while that I have heard a loving tone in her voice.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> I got a surprising phone call when she got to work, thanking me for the flowers and the lovely surprise she got when she walked downstairs this morning. This is the first time in quite a while that I have heard a loving tone in her voice.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's great Kevan. It is good to see you post, I wondered how you were.<P>I think you need to reread the advice above.<P>Listen to what your wife is saying. She wants you to be strong. She sees how crushed you are over her affair. She is running from your pain and the guilt it makes her feel. You are charting a path to her departure.<P>Unless....unless what? Unless you change. Get on anti-deps. Discipline your behavior around her. Be strong. Be cheerful. Figure out how to be a good mate. Let her see that there is a future with you where she won't feel like a sinner.<P>And let her go to see her sick mom. You both could use some distance. <P>Mike <BR>

OK, kevan, what Mike said!!!! He is right-on about this.<P>I was reading your last update and felt that I was looking somewhat into a mirror. Let's see if I can get all this into a concise format....<P>From d-day(4/99) until about 3/00, I behaved a lot like you..I desperately love my W and was devastated that she was involved with OM and thinking of leaving. Finally, I came to the realization that she wasn't happy and I couldn't make her happy. Happiness is one's own choice. Someone else cannot <I>make</I> you happy.<P>I got some peace from that and decided that we both needed an end to our pain and that I was comfortable with the decision to divorce. Well, around the same time, my W was starting to decide that maybe she did want to work on the marriage(unbeknownst to me) and started letting OM know. Well, at that point, OM and I reversed roles. I was strong, calm and supportive of my W's need to find what was missing in her life, even if that meant losing her. OM started crying, whining and claiming depression and horrible past life experiences. I think he did this to attempt to elicit sympathy from her. Over the next two or three months, she put up a wall between her and OM and started chipping away at the wall between us.<P>I don't know for sure if these role-reversals played much of a part in her solidifing her decision to try to return to the marriage. Certainly there were other factors involved. We have never discussed this. But, without any corroborating evidence, I do believe that it did have some important effect.<P>You can't change how you appear to her unless, as Dr. Phil says, you "get real" with and about yourself. Your postings read a lot like mine did in the first 9 months of our crisis.<P>You compare her mother to your parents as far as independence goes. Your W appears to want to be close to her mother in spite of all of this. Something my W's counsellor told me once(actually she did a lot of damage to our marriage early on) really does ring true. Ask yourself, "Do I want to be <B>right</B> or do I want to be <B>married</B>?" It's an excellent question to ask yourself.<P>If I have time, I will get back to this, but keep posting so we can stay current....<P>--DeWayne--

Hi, Kevan - I was wondering where you've been! Sorry you're hurting so much, but I have to agree with everyone here. I know if my H acted depressed and made me feel guilty I probably would have done anything to get away, knowing I was the cause of it.<P>Please try to be strong . . . I know it's not easy, but if you take care of yourself it will make all the difference. Your W may have second thoughts about leaving if you show her how strong you are.<P>The roses were a nice idea. Hopefully she'll see what a special man she may be losing.<P>Hang in there!! {{{HUGS}}}}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heartpain:<BR><B> "Do I want to be right</B> or do I want to be <B>married</B>?"<P>--DeWayne--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I'm being selfish. Yes, I do want to be married. I love my wife tremendously, just as much now if not more than ever.<BR>Sorry, I dont quite understand? Do I want to be right about what?<BR>I do want to be right about the principles of marriage that one partner should not feel that they can have the best of both worlds, a man in the home and one on the sideline!!<P>NOW, HOW, HOW, HOW do I stop this overwhelming desire to be as pyhsically close to my wife as possible. I love her company, I do know she is a beautiful person and just cannot help wanting to hold her and love and hug her. i have not pulled away from her, quite the opposite, I have this continuous desire to be as close to her as possible and it is tearing me apart because she is shying away from me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Hi, Kevan - I was wondering where you've been! <P>Hang in there!! {{{HUGS}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, Susie, really good to hear from you again. Yes, am hanging in there and trying but worst of all trying to keep control of my own emotions through this all. This seems to be the most difficult, just feel so absolutely exhausted, physically and mentally.<P>Yes, keep up them hugs

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B> <P>Yes, keep up them hugs</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So thats it, screwed up again. I got home last nighta bit late from work, unaviodable. At least got a peck on the cheek this time. My wife went upstairs, came down and found me looking at her little notebook with her telephone numbers in it. It is a little business diary and I reall wasnt interested in her damn telephone numbers, was just looking at all the intersrting info they put in these littel diaries, like the maps, conversion table etc. Of course she blew a fuse and started giving me hell about me poking my nose in her personal belongings. Its not as if I went snooping in her handbag, it was on the diningroom table. So of course another argument. Even though I apologised many times for doing this I still got the cold shoulder. My 16 year old son was upset again last night about this all and is now convinced it is time he moved out for a while, says he cant take me being beaten up like this and treated like cr..p all the time for stupid inconsequential things and cant take the fact that she thinks it is till alright that she keeps in contact with the [censored] OM. I am going for counselling again tonight whether she likes it or not and whether she thinks it is a stupid idea or not.<P>Love all you guys out there that are helping and supporting me through this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susie7753:<BR><B>Hopefully she'll see what a special man she may be losing.<P>Hang in there!! {{{HUGS}}}}</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, now I have done it, me and my big damn mouth, when will I ever learn to shut up and keep my stupid selfish emotions to myself. Somehow I think the chance of getting close again to her is now gone for good. <BR>We had a pretty good weekend, a bit strained but quite good. <BR>Then Sunday night I blew it again. Started discussing with her our relationship and what is happening and where we are going. <BR>She has just had enough of me harping on it all the time and me reminding her and off-loading guilt onto her. <BR>I am just finding it so difficult to accept that she will not completely break off contact with this OM. <BR>A few weeks ago I said to her that I cannot expect her to change any of her relationships until I can improve myself and get myself sorted out, but this is just completely eating me away. <BR>She feels caged in, oppressed and smothered. I have never meant to do this but possibly have without realising it as she had more freedom in South Africa than what she has had here having to work fullday. <BR>It is quite obvious I have not been pulling my weight enough and relying too much on her as she said last weekend she did it with the OM because she needed someone to lean on. <BR>She has now told me she will be going back to South Africa as soon as possible and doubts if she will ever return to Canada. <BR>This is all as a result of me not being able to keep my mouth shut. <BR>I told the kids everything that has been going on because they keep on asking me why she wouldnt give up this OM completely. They knew I was upset on Christmas day but did not know why until I stupidly told them instead of keeping my big mouth shut. (about the gift OM bought her). <BR>She is now sick and tired that every weekend I start my nonsense about our relationship and just feels that I will never ever let her forget it. All I want is just to get back to our old selves but I guess that is now gone forever through my stupidity, insensitivenes, and selfishness. <BR>She is very very upset with me that I told the kids everything and all the details and that I have actually poisoned them against her (my catching them in the Shopping Mall last year when I got called away from the golf tournament and went hunting for her to tell her I had to go to work, the resultant argument with OM where he told me that I must stop treating her like a child and grow up as the affair was over and they were just friends [that was before Christmas], the gold bracelet gift OM gave her for Christmas, that she was still in contact with him but I was not too sure how serious it was, that it was tearing me apart) , what a damn fool I have been. <BR>Our son got upset last night and told her that he could not take the fighting anymore, cannot concentrate on his schoolwork and wants to go and stay with someone else for a while until we sort things out. She got very very upset about this and refused to listen to our son and demanded that I put this right. Our son then blurted it out that he cannot take it anymore that she is still in contact with this OM. She told him that her relationships and the relationship between me and her were not of direct concern of the kids and that whatever happens she still loves them tremendously, but it did not end there and our son and my wife ended up having a terrible argument. <BR>In the ensuing argument she did say that she had returned the bracelet!!! This is the first I knew about this. <BR>She also feels that our daughter has been judging her unfairly and cannot see both sides of the picture and that both kids have come to see her as only their servant and nothing better. <BR>We eventually all three asked her what she wants us to do to put things right again. She said she just wants help and cooperation from all of us around the home and more consideration for her, her privacy and some time to herself instead of being tied down to the home, cooking, washing ironing and cleaning. <BR>Yes, I have expected too much from her, expected her to be totally honest with me and tell me where she was going all the time because I was so scared of what was happening and had happened. As she said to me last night I have put too much importance on my job and forgotten eveything else around me. <BR>I have been treating her like a child and know now that I have very possibly lost her for good through my pettiness and my blabbermouth. Believe it or not it was not intended to be this way but as they say in the classics "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" <BR>As she says, she has gone through utter hell these last six years here in Canada, has tried everything she can but just cannot do it anymore and feels more frustrated, tied down, restricted and oppressed than she ever did in South Africa even with all the violence and security issues to put up with there. <BR>So instead of listening to the advice I received, having some patience, and trying to get myself sorted out first, I have instead pushed things over the edge and completely torn my family and marriage apart - well done. <BR>Of course once she finds out that I have been discussing this with our good friends that will be the end of those friendships too because she will tell them the truth from her side. <P>I should have just listened to her in the first place and moved down to where her mother is staying. As she says I have put my kids first in place of our marriage. <BR>I now have two weeks backlog of work to try and get on top of, including the three days I was off work last week, but that is my fault and no-one else's.<BR>IP: Logged<BR>poodlepapa<BR>Member posted March 05, 2001 06:39 PM<P>i have been followig your posts since the begining and a couple of things jump out...i mean things that are going on...things that you describe that sound classic. <BR>i understand that it's your life and marriage that's being discussed here so forgive me when i say that regardless of how painful the entire mess is, in truth it's not really so different then many of the other stories that you can read about here. <BR>i say this because i want you to realize that many of us on this board have had to deal with very similar situations. <BR>obviously we all deal with these kind of problems differently, in terms of resolving them that is. one thing is clear however, there are certain universal responses to various situations. <BR>one is is the issue of blaim. while trouble in a marriage is always the shared responsability of the two parties involved having an affair isn't! she did it,not you! it's a cowardly and dishonest solution to any problem to lie and cheat to make yourself feel better. <BR>two, cheaters lie! that's what cheating is all about. so no matter what she says at this point, if it can't be verified, you can't believe her. <BR>three, if she is interested in resovling her marriage problems she must commit...that means giving up any suspect relationships, period. especially those with the person she cheated with! anything less is bulls---t! <BR>you sound pathetic and what you should be is angry! your children feel the anger on your behalf..why don't you? why are you making excuses for this woman? and please, don't say it's because you love her. we all have to learn to let go of the things we love when they become a detramentil to our lives. sad but that's the way it is. <BR>now i'm not throw her out but you must set some boundries or no matter how much you want it, your going to lose your marriage. <BR>1. honest answers. you must have them.<BR>2. marriage counciling and therapy for yourself and her.<BR>3. total committment to the marriage.<BR>4. respect for you and her family, (her children).<BR>5. a willingness on your part to let her leave if that's what she wants. <BR>step back, work on yourself to improve your own persona and who you are as a man. do this not for her but because you need to come out of this mess better then you were before. concentrate on the welfare of your children...you must! these are the things you can do right now to improve the situation. how she behaves is up to her, not you. <BR>stop pushing her and step back. don't be mean but be reserved. let her life take it's course and if you can't stand her behavior then ask her to leave or you and the children leave. <BR>you can't control her! only she can decide to behave correctly and she must do it because she wants to. not because you demand it. sorry but that's the way it is. <BR>once again, if you find that you can't tolerate her behavior ask her to leave. but no more fighting! it solves no problems and demeans you as a person. <BR>good luck and try to remember. if you want some one to stay you have to let them decide that it's where they want to be.<BR>poodlepapa <BR>IP: Logged<P>quote: <P>Originally posted by poodlepapa:<BR> good luck and try to remember. if you want some one to stay you have to let them decide that it's where they want to be.<BR>poodlepapa <P>Thanks guys, this encouragement is great. <P>I asked her last night why she did not tell me that she had returned the stupid bracelet that the pig gave her for Christmas, she could not answer me. I wonder if she actually has returned it or given it to this divorcee buddy of hers for safekeeping. Maybe I should show some trust. <BR>I want to write a letter to this pigs wife and tell her that my wife has promised to break all contact with the grubby-pawed bum and if she knows anything to the contrary she is free to let me know. <BR>If she betrays my trust and the trust of our children again, she will be out of our home so fast she wont know what has happened. <BR>Hey, man, I wish I had the available money to buy her a plane ticket and get her out of here as soon as possible. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevan:<BR><B>So just on 12 months since my wife was 'discovered' in the park kissing it up. 6 months since she accepted a Christmas gift from her lover AFTER THE AFFAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OVER ...<BR>And, guess what - still no intimacy, not even a voluntary kiss from her....<BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>This is very very cruel...<P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>With all this now still going on between my wife & myself - I often sit and think, when I am in a bad mood and feeling this anger rush in again - maybe I should also go out and have a try and see what it is like to make love to another woman????<P>If she has had the opportunity to go and find out for the first time in her life what its like to make love to someone else, besides the virgin male she married, then why cant I too?<P>Bad attitude, hey - this is the same as saying, well my dear wife, seeing that you have had an affair and had the chance to find out what it is like to make love to someone else, then why shouldnt I???<P>I was feeling so angry again last night - just at the thought that she went out with him early last year with full intent of climbing into bed with him - and then bawling her eyes out the next day, telling me it wasnt what it looked like, and she didnt want to ruin anyone's marriage, making passionate love to me two nights in a row, and then still going ahead and continuing the affair and ending up screwing him anyway. HOW DO I GET THIS HURT OUT OF ME?<P>It would have been bad enough if I had just found out that they were having an affair, but after being lied to me like this, it makes it all that more difficult to get over this.<P>Yes, I keep on blaming him for climbing into her pants, but it is obvious she was just as willing to see what he had in there, just waiting for her - the ***** - sorry this sounds very coarse, and please dont take personal offense to this - the main reason I am now still so upset over it all IS HER DAMN HESITANCE FOR INTIMACY AND CLOSENESS.<P>It could be very possible, I know that, if I was put in a position where I was tempted right now - who knows what may happen - I wonder if she realises this?<P>Another thing, she is putting on more and more weight - quite ironic, last year by this time she was her slimmest she had ever been since we got married - but no effort this year at all - yes maybe it is an indication that things have cooled down with the fat oaf - but then again - I am sure a few pounds in bed wouldnt make any difference to him anyhow - he is so big and overweight, he would most probably enjoy the bit of extra cushioning.<P>It is quite obvious that the "affair" was already in full swing - at least the emotional side of it, while I was away in Quebec early last year - it almost as if she couldnt wait for me to get back - then jump at the chance of climbing into his pants - at least that way she didnt feel guilty that she was "deceiving" me while I was out of town.<P>I know that MarriageBuilders preaches that the hurt party should just do their best and "hang in there" while the wayward spouse gets their life back together - but, hell, are we not allowed ot have feelings too and expect some type of affection?<P>It is all fine and well that the deceived party should fully understand the trauma and guilt that the wayward spouse is going thru, "withdrawing" from the affair, but are we just expected to "ignore our emotions and needs" while this is going on? Are we really expected to just "grin and bear it", make as if we are happy with life all the time?<P>As soon as she can see that I am feeling a bit down or angry becauseof something that has triggered off an emotion or memory, she gets her back up immediately.<P>I am finding this very difficult to deal with...<P>How do you deal with a person that just wants to "ignore" what is going on, ignore her spouses feelings (I suppose mainly through her feelings of guilt) and just go on with life, as long as the spouse she has just hurt doesnt expect her to be "intimate" with him?<P><BR>How do you deal with a person that just wants to "ignore" what is going on, ignore her spouses feelings (I suppose mainly through her feelings of guilt) and just go on with life, as long as the spouse she has just hurt doesnt expect her to be "intimate" with him?<P>Hey, I at least got a phonecall from her at work today - but the only reason was to make sure I had submitted my expenses...<P>We are having a difficult time at work with the company downsizing - many people have been laid off...<P>So, same old story again tonight..<P>I got home before her tonight - 6:30 pm and no sight of her.<BR>No phonecall beforehand, nothing.<BR>Then 5 minutes later, a phonecall - she "had been for a swim", can I please turn the pot on on the stove with the meat in it.<P>Then she wonders why I get upset - I phone her every time I am going to be home late. But if I have to mention something like this she gets mad.<P>Well, at least she approached me to kiss me hello - rather hesitantly, but nevertheless.<P><BR>When she came home I did my best to just act "normal" - a few minutes later she says "Well, are you peed off because I went for a swim?" - but with such a look in her eyes - almost ready for a fight, ready to challenge me as soon as I had anything to say - I just said no and ignored it.<P>So again, same old story, "pleasant, courteous" talk all night. <P>I said to her tonight during dinner how difficult it is at work with all the layoffs, how low the morale is and then said to her "But dont worry I will be a good boy this time. I wont end up a nervous wreck like last time - so I wont cause you any stress" (This of course was one of her many excuses for the affair - She needed someone to 'lean' on - she wanted a husband that was a "man", not a nervous wreck)<P>She snapped at me straight away "Oh, stop that crap, are you just trying to be funny"<P>Dinner finished - watching TV - falls asleep.<P>Bedtime, I go shower, she goes upstairs to bed - I finish showering, she asks, well arent you going to sleep upstairs in the bed tonight - I said no, because I know she will not sleep with my snoring, and she needs her sleep.<P>Then I just said to her "All I am looking for is a kiss and a hug, that would make a big difference, thats all I was looking for last night too, you know" - not a word from her. <P>She got into bed, I went and kissed her goodnight, expecting maybe that she would say, come have a cuddle for a few minutes, but no, just a goodnight kiss and thats it, I left the bedroom and came downstairs.<P>Do I have to beg for her mercy now, because SHE had the affair, and she feels so guilty now, and she feels she is not good enough for me (yes, she has told me this) and now feels so difficult to show me love?<P>I have tried everything I can, believe me - but still this distancing - what more do I do?<P>She wont go to a counsellor, wont talk to anyone about it, just wants to pretend as if it never happened - well at least expects me to - but she doesnt want to get close to me - oh, yes, maybe if I ask for a hug or a kiss, I may be lucky depending on her mood.<P>And still her cellphone account gets sent to her work address, not to our home address - and she now expects me to trust her completely again? She just gets mad when I even mention it... I so very nearly demanded that she give me a copy of her last 5 months phone logs last night.<P>Anybody wonder why I still feel suspicious of her goings-on?<P>HOW LONG DOES THIS GO ON FOR - AM I EXPECTED TO JUST SIT BY AND WASTE ANOTHER YEAR OF MY LIFE WAITING FOR HER?<P>Yes, she tends for the home, besides working full-day, cooks most evenings even though I suggest very often that she takes a break. <P>I have asked her many times if we could invite friends around for a meal - everyone has asked us to their homes and it is quite obvious that some reciprocation would be nice - but no, she says she just doesnt have the inclination for it - then she wonders why her best friends are a bit cool with her? She is now finding excuses that they dont like her anymore.<P>I have even written a letter to her explaining my feelings (last time I went away) and my need to know what has happened (a very good friend found an excellent letter for me at the <A HREF="http://www.dearpeggy.com" TARGET=_blank>www.dearpeggy.com</A> website) - but not even a word from her about the letter - I have been home for over 2 weeks now...<P>Anybody out there have some suggestions?<P> <BR>So, here we go again:<P>Yesterday morning I left her in the shower when I went to work, behaved like a good little boy and didnt walk in on her to kiss her goodbye.<P>Got home last night, hey, at least got a "token" kiss hello out of her !!!!<P>We went out for dinner last night at a pub down the road - lovely little Irish Pub (both our kids were out for the night and she didnt feel like cooking for 2 of us, so I suggested the pub for dinner).<BR>We both had a few drinks and some dinner - all happy and joking. <BR>Quite a few of the men smiled at her in the pub - how do I explain to her that you dont stare at men when they walk past you in a pub, especially when you are with your husband?<BR>Anyhow, I just joked with her about this, she felt quite embarassed - I told her its those beautiful big blue eyes that everyone falls for.<P>So, got home last night - she did some washing - I was pretty tired, 10pm went and had a shower, then went to her and said to her, well, are you going to take a sleeping tablet tonight so that I can some and sleep in the bed with you tonight? (I have been sleeping downstairs on the sofa for many months, as I am a heavy snorer and she has not been sleeping well, and is a light sleeper, and whenever I sleep in the same bed as her, she ends up getting up in the middle of the night and going downstairs to sleep - but then doesnt sleep and is grumpy as all hell the next day)<P>Answer "No, its too late to take one, I wont wake up in the morning"<P>I suppose I am crazy to expect her to at least have said to me "Sorry, it will effect me too much tomorrow, but we can at least have a cuddle tonight" !!!!!!!!<P>So, she went upstairs to go to bed, I took my sleeping bag and pillows, settled on the sofa. I usually go upstairs and kiss her goodnight, but I thought last night, this is enough, lets see if she maybe comes and kisses me goodnight for a change - hah, next joke.......<P>This morning, I got up, made her coffee like I do every morning, took it to her and woke her up - but no good morning kisses for her this time.<P>She came downstairs a bit later, looking quite grumpy, I asked her if she slept well - she just answered "No".<P>Again this morning when I was ready to leave, she was in the shower, so I simply knocked on the door, shouted goodbye and left for work. No more kisses goodbye for you dear lady until I see some change in attitude.<P>To tell you all the truth, I cannot wait to get away on business again so that I dont have to see her every day and not be put in the position where I want to hold and love her, but just meet with resistance.<P>So, any further ideas on how I should try and get her to come around?

I didn't have time to read this entire post, but I read enough for it to strike a delicate spot in my heart. My wife has exhibited much of the same deliberate hurtful actions. Saying it is over, sleeping with him the next day, then on the drive home with sex still fresh inside her, calling me in tears, wanting to come home again.<P>What to do??<P>Well, I don't have all the answers, but to answer your one question... <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>If she has had the opportunity to go and find out for the first time in her life what its like to make love to someone else, besides the virgin male she married, then why cant I too?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The answer is you could. And you have every right to. She did you wrong, and she deserves to have it done back.<P>But...<P>What will that do for you? Really? Besides just getting laid? I, too, was a virgin when I got married, and so was my wife. I lay awake many times and think about the same crap you're thinking about. It's not freaking fair. But for me to have a revenge affair would be the stupidest thing I could do. It would pretty much gaurantee an end to our marriage.<P>So how do you cope? <P>Well, what I do is make myself realize that I don't <I>have</I> to put up with it, if I don't want to. I choose to because I still love my wife. A lot. And I am holding on to the hope that she will let him go, and I'll be waiting for her.<P>Have you considered Plan B? As I mentioned, I haven't read your whole story, but it seems that enough time has passed, and you've been through enough crap to justify cutting off contact with her. True, maybe it will push her away at first, but if you've been everything you can be in your Plan A, then she will have to deal with those memories. And if whatever love she has left for you is strong enough, she will come back. If it is not, then are you sure you want her to?<P>If you want to email me to just vent or talk some more about your situation, feel free. aragorn747@aol.com<BR>

Yesssss......STOP PUSHING.<P>I am a WS and I know that what you are describing would drive me insane.<P>Being hunted down for hugs and kisses makes you want to avoid them even more. Then it becomes a HUGE issue.<BR>And you start to feel like even the slightest move you make is going to be overreacted to.<P>Every opportunity for a hug or kiss is a TEST. Then it becomes even more akward and a bigger deal than it needs to be.<P>So she's not meeting your need for affection. Did you meet all of hers? <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B>Yesssss......STOP PUSHING.<P>I am a WS and I know that what you are describing would drive me insane.<P>Being hunted down for hugs and kisses makes you want to avoid them even more. Then it becomes a HUGE issue.<BR>And you start to feel like even the slightest move you make is going to be overreacted to.<P>Every opportunity for a hug or kiss is a TEST. Then it becomes even more akward and a bigger deal than it needs to be.<P>So she's not meeting your need for affection. Did you meet all of hers? <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, so what you are suggesting is that I just leave her alone, let her do her own thing?<P>Do you realise how much it HURTS, when you do eveything you possibly can, I have tried everything I can think of to rectify what I have supposedly done wrong.<BR>I have been there for her constantly, I have helped her around the house wherever I can, washing, ironing, cleaning.<BR>I have treated her in evry way I can - footrubs, back massages, coffee in the morning, been there whenever she was feeling down - read me whole post - hopefully you will get the general picture.<P>Did I meet all her needs , for affection, and other needs?<BR> I have treated her like a queen as far as I am concerned - maybe she doesnt think so, but, boy, have I tried ever so hard.<P>Every reason she has given me for this affair I have done my very best to rectify - from <BR>She needed someone to lean on.<BR>I didnt take her out anywhere (which is nonsense).<BR>I never talked to her.<BR>I didnt listen to her.<P>Even things we did while she was having her affair, she doesnt do now...<P>You name them, I have tried - all I get from her is she wants space and a private life..<P>How do you think I must feel when she still insists that her Cellfone account is her own private business and none of mine?<BR>Do you think it makes me feel good and secure when she disappears without telling me where she is, or gets upset when I phone her after work on her cellfone to ask her something?<P>I am not just talking about "affection" here - believe me, I have done my very best to be as affectionate to her as I could - I have even bought her flowers nearly every week, bought her lovecards whenever I find a good one. I have een written her love poems. I have done my very best to be happy, affectionate, always trying to find something to say to her........<P>No, I am not making out to be the perfect husband - I know I am not, not by a long way, but the way you come across here is exactly the same as my wife - are you implying that it is all my fault that this has happened?<P>Can a man (yes, I call myself a man, believe it or not, even though she told me 8 months ago that she wants a man for a husband, not a nervous wreck - like I ended up being after all this came out) -- not be expected to want some affection and intimacy too?<P>I have wined and dined her, I have taken her to shows, taken her to movies, bought her gifts, treated her in every way I possibly could to show her how much I still love her.<P>I have willingly forfeited our family holiday this year so that she can go for a week to Holland to visit her father who will be visiting there for a while.<P>So, you think this is still right - just on a year after the affair supposedly is over, and I must still be treated only like a companion and not her lover anymore? Am I expected to just wait for eternity?<P>What about openness and honesty? What about being willing to sit down and discuss things that have happened.<P>Ok, so she is feeling very guily about what happened - dont you think I also feel very guilty about what I have done to have "caused" this to happen? <BR>Dont you think I also feel like the dregs of humanity, because my wife had to go elsewhere to find affection and support?<P>Love is a two way street is it not?<P>OK, so now I must just stop being affectionate towards her - then is it not so easy for her again to say to me that I am not being sensitive to her? Especially when I get comments like "Oh, no kiss hello today, what are you peed off about?"<P>No, I am not asking her right now to smother me, fall all over me and seduce me every day.<P>Crumbs, its nearly 6 weeks since I said to her, well, cant we at least start one step at a time, you say you feel that you are not good enough for us anymore and that the reason why you are staying away from me. <BR>A voluntary kiss here or there, a small hug here or there is all I am asking for to start with, but, no, even after her promising me - I am lucky if she has come up and voluntarily kissed me a handful of times since then.<P>Who do you think is the one that went out for counselling to try and sort things out - me - she refuses to go.<P>Who do you think is the one that has ended up at the doctors so many times in the last few months, is on Anti-deps to try and stabilize his life - me - she is suffering from depression too, but refuses to see a doctor.<P>OK, So I will stop PUSHING - for sure, as I have had more than enough of trying every way possible to please her.<P>So as you are the expert in these matters, you tell me how I must progress from here onwards....<P>But of course, you have not heard her side of the story, have you, and there is no chance you ever will, because she refuses to even look at the MB site.

I am probably not the best one to advise you on what you are doing right or wrong. <P>The things you said just struck such a cord with me, because I hear the same tone from my H.<P>I very much just want to be left alone. I don't want the things I used to from him. I used to want his affection and desire and romance. Its only when I started getting those things from someone else that my H has decided HE wants to be the one to give it all to me. Well sorry -- he had that chance. And now he wants to be demanding that I give up OM and try to make HIM happy? And he just assumes that because he's happy he's gonna make me happy too?<BR> <BR>I resent that greatly. Maybe your WS does too. Just trying to give you that perspective.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B>I am probably not the best one to advise you on what you are doing right or wrong. <P>The things you said just struck such a cord with me, because I hear the same tone from my H.<P>I very much just want to be left alone. I don't want the things I used to from him. I used to want his affection and desire and romance. Its only when I started getting those things from someone else that my H has decided HE wants to be the one to give it all to me. Well sorry -- he had that chance. And now he wants to be demanding that I give up OM and try to make HIM happy? And he just assumes that because he's happy he's gonna make me happy too?<BR> <BR>I resent that greatly. Maybe your WS does too. Just trying to give you that perspective.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>So, what you are saying is that you dont want your husband to be your lover anymore?<BR>Do you plan on staying married to him?<P><B> Well sorry -- he had that chance. </B><BR>Oh, so now he has lost it completely with you - he is not allowed a second chance at making your marriage work?<P>Is HE trying harder now? Is HE trying to rectify what you think went wrong?<P>Do you still love him?

Kevan -- Would you like to give me your e-mail address?<BR>We can talk directly if it might help

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B>Kevan -- Would you like to give me your e-mail address?<BR>We can talk directly if it might help</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wont leave this on here for long.<P><p>[This message has been edited by kevan (edited August 01, 2001).]

got it -- thanks