HGBrawner<P>I loved your response HGB, It definatey helps to here from someone else who's been thru a simular situation. I had the meeting with the OW husband and I posted it in a different thread but I will copy it here at the end of this message.<BR> Lately I have been seriously considering another church. I can sense that tension sometimes that does take away from where the attention should really be. Not sure if W has had same dream, at this point i am not sure she would share that with me.. she is not comfortable talking about the ow to me yet, still abit fresh I guess. <P>(message about meeting with OW husband)<P>Here is where I am at: I am the WS. I met with the OW's H on tues with our Pastor being there for support. He was also my bestfreind. The relationships with our spouses have been reconsiled and doing well. Now I am trying to reconsile with him. Our meeting was attempt to clear the air. He asked me a couple of questions and them proceeded to share how angry he was and remind me of all the terrible things I did to him. When it was my turn to talk, I told him how sorry I was and how he was right about all the things I did to him. Itold him that I was ashamed at the way I treated him and how selfish I was. I cannot believe some of the things I did- to get what i wanted. I lied to him and everyone else. When it was done we both had cried so hard that is physically hurt. I told him that I missed him. I don't what is going to happen now. I don't if he'll be able to let go of enough anger for us to get close again. We all attend the same church and both agreed that we didn't want to leave because we're close to everyone there. The OW and I have hedges set up as to avoid any contact where we would be alone... This was definately I strongly regret doing because the freindship I have with anyone that knows about it will be tainted. I'm praying his angry will fade and we can build again-- I know its unusual - I guess that is why I'm trying to figure out the anger issue. And don't get me wrong, he deserves to be anger forever at me. J<P>

Perch,<P>Just wanted to put my two cents in here. We left our church. I too am the WS and my best friend and I had a meeting as well. I can say that I truely miss his friendship. I know that he still thinks that I "took advantage" of his wife and just didnt want to believe his wife could be willing participant. We really wanted to stay at our church, but for reasons you have touched on and others we felt it was best that we left. Attatched is our resignation letter. It might help explain more. It is amazing to me how the devil attacks our familys. Because of all of this our walk with the Lord is stronger than it has ever been. My wife and I have helped others in simular situations ect. It is amazing how God works through the valleys of life.<P>October 31, 1999<P>Romans 12: 3-21<P>Dear Pastor, Deacons and other affected parties;<P>Over the past 5-6 months Lori and I have been in the process of dealing with a sin involving myself and another couple attending our church. Lori and I have sought counseling from the pastor and completed steps of restoration between ourselves and with God. We were advised by the pastor to have complete separation and to make sure the door was closed, leaving no cracks for this emotional affair to resume. Since the other couple was advised the same we never imagined the other couple would choose tho start regular attendance at Westside and certainly did not forsee them wanting to join but that is the dilemma we find ourselves facing today.<P>The other couple does not see the need or responsibility to be accountable for their part in this matter, instead choosing to take the role of victim. Knowing personally all the circumstances, we know this is not an accurate portrayal of the situation.<P>As a member for over 20 years and having weathered many of the storms that Satan has hurled at Westside, it saddens us to have to part in this way but since we feel we cannot co-exist with the other couple at Westside and continue to serve God to the best of our ability, it is with heavy hearts we therefore resign our responsibilities (Awana leaders-Jr high and 2-3 year olds, WOW board member, Youth leaders). However, we would like to retain our church membership and will continue to prayerfully and financially support this ministry until we find another church body with whom we wish to unite and at that time will transfer our membership.<P>We have come to the above conclusion based on the following:<P>1. After seriously taking the pastor's advisement regarding total separation, and were attempting to respond obediently, the other couple increased attendance and also allowed outside contact between their son and ours. After voicing our concerns regarding the difference in the actions displayed and the advisement given, we were told to "hang in there for a while". After it was brought to our attention their plan was to seek membership and after reading a book by Willard Harley entitled "How to Survive an Affair", which confirmed and emphasized the need for complete separation as advised, we have come to realizeif we are to follow this guideline the action taken will have to be ours.<P>2. The blindness of responsibility of the other couple involved in this situation.<P>3. The previous actions of the other couple causes us to wonder that if steps were taken toward them on behalf of us as members, it might result in a hinderance of their spiritual growth as well as cause undue stress and division among other members and the pastoral staff.<P>4. We feel forcing the other couple to look elsewhere for a church home would possibly entreat them to make statements and have actions that might be harmful to the church as a whole.<P>5. We feel confident that we can go elsewhere, fit in and make transition (although difficult and not anxiously anticipated) and continue to serve God in ministries elsewhere.<P>6. We feel we can go quietly without malice or retribution.<P>7. Our goal is to do whatever is best for our family, our physical family as well as our church family. We feel that however painful, this is a way to perhaps prevent further division among members, allow the other couple as well as ourselves to a chance to grow spiritually and prevent further pain for our entire family. We pray that someday we can look back and see that the result of this action had a positive and eternal affect on someone.<P>8. We hope parting on good terms will allow us to consider ourselves a friend to WBC and keep the door open so that someday we might possibly return to unite again with this body that we have come to faithfully love and serve.<P>Sincerely,<P><BR>

D&W, were you and the other couple involved in wife swapping? Please don't take this as sarcasm, but that is what your letter sounds like when you talk about the couples involved in sin rather than 2 people involved in sin. wow.....

Prech:<P>1st, read Job.<P>2nd, Seriously consider one of the fundamental truths of Christianity. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"<P>Now imagine YOUR best friend fondling and mauling YOUR nude wife. Have him look up at you from their bed and ask "Can't we still be friends?"<P>You need to move along and give your friend some peace.<P>Here's the letter of forgiveness I wrote to my W's OM and his response. Notice that his arrogance is gone. Is yours?<P>Xxxxx,<P>I sitting here this morning attempting to write a letter offering my<BR>forgiveness. I don't really know how to do this. I asked God last night for<BR>guidance in this many, many times. All I received was the feeling of a warm<BR>blanket being wrapped around my heart. From our conversations, I get the<BR>feeling that you do not hear me or care to hear me. The burden of your<BR>dishonesty and arrogance must be very great. The damage is done. You have my<BR>forgiveness and can go from here to whatever peace you can find as I must go<BR>forward to look for a peace I doubt is there. It is God's grace that in my<BR>doubts, I am usually wrong.<P>Xxxxxxxx<P>Yes the burden of my dishonesty and arrogance, as well as the pain caused by<BR>the damage I've done is very great. I am very sorry. It must be very<BR>difficult to forgive me. I do want very much for you and all of us to get<BR>to peace now, and I suppose that the peace we have will be through God's<BR>grace. Thank you.<P>

perch<BR>I would imagine that the simple fact that your wife doesn't want to talk to you about the ow is a pretty good sign that being in the same church with her is a very negative trigger. <P>Let me tell you from my perspective how she probably feels....<BR>At first we stayed in the church to prove the skeptics wrong. We didn't want to be run out either. It was pride that kept us there as much as anything. The night my husband finally said it was time to leave the church came about 6 months into our healing. We were doing quite well all things considered, except for both of us struggling with creating an attitude of worship when we were there. This particular Sunday night I really hadn't wanted to attend services but decided to go to support our youth pastor who was preaching. We sat in our customary pew...third from the front on the left (we are good Baptists after all ). The ow was present and sat in the pew in front of us. We had already had our face to face meeting and our emailing had pretty much ended. I was sitting in the pew as the sermon was being given and found my mind on the ow. The thought came to mind..."I am sitting in church with the woman who had sex with my husband!"...and I began to cry. My husband asked what was wrong and I told him I would tell him later. After church as we sat in the car I related what had happened. His immediate response was "It's time to leave" and I knew he was right. It was as if a 100 pound weight had been lifted off my chest. Within 24 hours I realized that the thoughts and negative feelings weren't from Satan trying to keep us from worshipping, they were allowed by God to get us to move to a church where we could worship, minister and be ministered to.<P>As you consider the best path...consider this. Church members are human and subject to human frailties. Even if you and your wife are able to mend your relationship with the other couple, will your fellow church members always view you with suspicion...waiting for one of you to fall again. Will your wife or the ow's husband feel stared at and uncomfortable? Even though some of the people in our new church home know about the affair (because we shared with them) neither of us feels stigmatized or uncomfortable. God has given us a new start where we can use the valuable lessons we've learned but not be drug down by the past and the negative attitudes of some people. You see, we weren't ministered to very well in the other church. I was told it was all my fault and we were pretty much left to find healing on our own. That had the positive effect of turning us totally to God, but we needed some love from our church family as well.<P>You may miss your friend, but in the end it will probably be best not to continue the friendship. That is a consequence of your sin that must be borne. At first I thought I might be able to accept the ow as a friend again, but as time went on I realized I didn't want her as a friend. She had thrown my friendship in my face, betrayed me and tried to destroy my marriage. I could never trust her again. I realized that forgiving her didn't mean I had to accept her in my life or even trust her. <P>For what it's worth, I don't know of any couple who has overcome an affair within the church who has stayed in that church. I tend to believe that God wants the restored marriage to be used somewhere else. Be sensitive to Him and especially to your wife.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Wesse,<P>It wasnt swaping at all. The two of us just got too close (me and OW, my wifes best friend) It was no more than an EA but we were planning on leaving our familys and live the "fantasy",<P>D and W<P>Ps Just so you know you are getting very good advise from HG. She helped us more than you all will ever know. Many many simularities in our stories.

HG, D+W, <P>I amazed to situations so close to my own. Its seems the more time that goes by I can see what you all are talking about. Even you "A2TIMER", I can feel the anger in your messages but you may be right. I guess I've just been sitting back and soaking in everything after this highly emotional meeting , trying to listen to God and his will. I question why a I'm so torn to reconsile with the OW's husband-- I guess I trying to make everything better, right my wrongs you may say. I know there are consequences to sin--maybe I'm attempting to control what the consequences are..??>> Yhe wife has been talking alittle about the OW lately-- they too were good friends at one time-- Maybe the time has come to move on?>>..

perch<BR>It breaks my heart to see Satan attacking Christian marriages so successfully. I'm not familiar with your story and wonder how long the affair was, how involved, when it ended, how long you and your wife have been in recovery? I found that the farther I got from the initial shock, the better able I was to see things rationally and to make good decisions.<P>Since none of us live inside your head we can't know what your unrealized motives may be. One guess I would hazard is that you somehow hope that things can go back to the way they were "pre-affair" in your friendship. Perhaps you unconciously feel that reconciling with this man would make everything okay. My personal experience and belief is that simply can't happen. The rift is there and it is unlikely it can be bridged. Of course, with God all things are possible, so I guess there is always room for a miracle. I guess we won't know God's thoughts on this til we meet Him face to face, but I would hazard a guess that His higher priorities are your personal realtionship with Him, your marriage, your place in His plan, your witness to others and way on down whether you have a friendship with this couple or with the husband alone. I do believe that God calls you to apologize to those involved as well as calling them to forgive you. I just am not sure I believe He expects us to reconcile those broken friendships.<P>Is your wife aware that you post here? What are her feelings if she knows? If she is ever interested in emailing with someone for support, I am willing to pass on my email address to you.<P><BR>D&W<BR>Thank you for your kind words. It is that kind of encouragement that fuels my desire to return here when logic would say "put it behind you and move on". It is also a direct confirmation of the vision that I believe came from God about using this experience to help other people through the crisis. <P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

HGB's posts on this thread are so helpful - as they always are. <P>I am responding because my h & I are a success story of a family who remained in the same church with ow & her family. It has been extremely difficult and definately did make recovery a much slower process. It still hurts every time I see her. My h says that this is because of the way she treats me.<P>However, I do not think that some degree of reconciliation with your friend is impossible: <P>-You need to allow your friend time. <P>-You need to accept full responsibility. I did not like D&W's letter because to me it seemed to include the 2 betrayed spouses as instuments of Satan.<P>-Ow needs to be entirely out of the process. <P>-Please be sure that you are seeking reconciliation only with him with no strings attached to her. <P>-Don't ask or expect your w to reconcile with ow. It may happen, but there should be no added pressure on your w to do this, and you should be fully accepting if she chooses not to ever speak to the ow again. <P>If you can do those things which show your friend that you are truly sorry for the harm you caused and that you have absolutely no designs on his wife, I think that you can truly help him. Just be sure that your motives are pure and unselfish. Clear expression of remorse from the wrongdoer is not necessary for forgiveness, but I certainly think it makes forgiveness an easier as an ongoing commitment.<P>I think that I could get past most of the awkwardness with ow in our case. However, she treats me as if I were responsible for her unhappiness. Recently, more than 2 years after my h's affair, a mutual friend at our church told me that ow makes her feel she has to choose between us. Ow has never apologized to me or in any way expressed any feeling of remorse. I think she feels that everything is my h's fault and that she is a victim. I tried for 2 years to make things better but have now given up. <P>Under the circumstances it is better that few people in our church know. At times it has been hard for me not to retaliate. It has also been hard not being able to talk to our present minister. Early on I did confide in our former minister. I asked that he not tell anyone else and that the church not force her to resign. He did try to talk to her, but with disastrous results. She and friends (most of whom knew nothing of her affair with my h who had resigned as chairman of the church board) launched a campaign against the minister, and he soon lost his job. Throughout the turmoil that ensued, neither he nor I exposed her motive. However, I felt horrible about what happened to him. <P>Needless to say, I have not confided in the present minister. I do not want to see the church torn apart. We considered moving to another church and visited some. However, our youngest child is very tied to our church and did not understand why we were thinking of leaving. We also have a very close church "family" that we did not want to lose. After a few months we returned, and I thing that was right for us. We are now both as active as ever. <P>There is an incredible ripple effect from an<BR>yd affair that occurs within the church. However, at no other time do we need the support of our church family more - even when they do not know of the affair.<P>I would love to do what you have done. I wonder if your timing may be off and that it may be too soon, but only those of you involved can decide that. <P>It is wonderful to see the WS being proactive in trying to help repair the damage. You are so different from the usual ws who genuinely tries to be a loving spouse while at the same time furiously sweeping any reference to the affair under the proverbial rug. It seems that you are now taking the Christian approach. I do hope that you are able to help your friend and your wife heal. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by wesse (edited February 09, 2001).]

update---<P> Well. finally did it. This past Sunday we went to a different church. It was uncoffortable for me but the wife loved it. I figured as much. Still not sure what will happen in the long run but i guess everyone is just going to sit back now and let time do its thing. There has been alot of wonderful advise here and a lot of experience I didn't realize was out there. I have found with time that i am focusing more on my personal relationship with Christ rather then how "I" can fix things etc etc.<P>

perch,<BR>Trust God to lead you somewhere that will minister to both of you. I truly believe He will do that. You are absolutely right in focusing on your personal relationship with Christ rather than what you can do to fix things. Through Him you will see what you need to do each step along the way. You are going to be just fine!<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31