Maybe this would be better posted on the Recovery board, but my sudden insight really doesn't involve recovery per se. <P>I'd like to know if any of you think I'm on target here with my thinking. I'd really like to know especially what any WS's out there think.<P>Here goes:<P>Honesty has been the biggest problem in my 10 year marriage. I think it is a problem for both of us, but by far is the worst problem with my H, the WS. I've come to understand that his dishonesty with me about his emotions and feelings is our biggest stumbling block. But recently - he's started to open up a bit, and has told me some of what he felt with the OW. Ugh, I can't even begin to describe how awful it felt to hear him talk about her with regret, telling me how she understood him, how he could have spent his life with her had he met her under different circumstances...etc.<P>Talk about crushing my already battered self-esteem. I walked around alternately numb and hysterical all week after hearing those things. I've kept wondering WHY he has come back to me, if she is everything he wanted. I am definitely not hearing from him any reassurances that there is anything about ME that he needs. So I've been reeling with hurt and not knowing what to do about it...I've been struggling not to blame myself for his affair, trying so hard not to feel that it was my inadequacies that forced him into her arms.<P>But suddenly this morning, some of the reading I've been doing about honesty has sunk in. He's admitted that he has always been afraid of me. (Not entirely sure why, but obviously I've been love busting in a way that he has yet to clue me in on) Later in our conversation, he voiced his frustration that when he attempts to be honest that I don't understand him!!<P>But then the pieces started to come together. As a result of his fear, he has lied to me about his emotions and feelings. He's kept them hidden for all of our 14 year relationship (10 of those married). And so I've been putting my energies towards the lies, thinking I was doing my best to love him. And of course, because of his dishonesty, I wasn't meeting his needs, wasn't understanding him, and was making him very unhappy. And even further, I instinctively knew I was failing, and this caused me to feel like a terrible failure, even before his A. My frustration at my lack of connection with him caused me to act out with lots of angry outbursts (Perhaps some of this is why the fear).<P>So when his bottled up emotions needed an outlet, he told someone else. He told another woman the honest truth about his emotions and feelings, allowing her the information she needed to adjust to meet his needs. Hence his feeling that she understood him, and loved him, and that he loved her - and that THIS was what he'd been missing all those years with me.<P>I think I'm getting somewhere with understanding this. And its a relief to *know* that it wasn't because I am a lesser person, that it wasn't because she's smarter, prettier, more fun to be with...<P>The reason is that I was handicapped by his dishonesty in my attempts to love my husband - and she wasn't hindered that way. She had the truth to work with! It wasn't an issue of my worth as a person.<P>Whew, I feel better with that understanding - although I am sure the demons will be back to whisper in my ear again that I am not good enough and thats why he loved someone else.<P>Does this sound like I am getting it?<P>So now my difficulty is that after 14 years of dishonesty, he's trying to tentatively open up to me. And when I don't instantly understand, he clams right back up. Of course I don't understand, I'm trying to unravel 14 years of lies, struggling to discover what is real and what is not - and I don't always recognize when he's opening up with the truth, and when he's hiding again. I need to work with the truth for awhile before I can begin to understand - but its my very lack of understanding that is discouraging him. Ugh. Any advice on how to take this insight into practice?<P>

BrambleRose - I'm not a WS, but I want to tell you that I identify with your situation. For whatever reason, after the birth of our first son 12 1/2 years ago, dishonesty from mt wife, in hindsight, seemed to become the norm, i.e., dishonesty about her feelings towards me and dishonestly by omission by not communicating things that were bothering her. As a result, I was left in the dark to wonder why she had turned cold to me, although she always said she still loved me - if I asked. My angry outbursts when the frustration built is what she called abuse that drove her away. Finally, the weight of her grief for our deceased son plus our huge disconnect enabled her to reach out to a sympathetic ear - her best friends husband.<P>Anyway, I think you're onto something.<P>WAT

I think in my H's case he was afraid to be open because he was afraid of being hurt again like he had been by his first wife and by his father.

Bramblerose,<BR>I think you're on a good track. He still chose to do the wrong thing in confiding in someone else, but I think it does help to go back & fix the things that aided that decision.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

I felt much the same way you did when my H told me his feelings for the OW. I broke down right in front of him. Which of course put up a wall between us.<P>For me it's been a matter of putting things into perspective. I don't think that OW has anything I don't, instead I think she retained things that I after 10 years have neglected. Namely, letting my husband be himself without fear of recrimination from me.He could open up to her and become close to her without her standing in judgement.<P>Now, I don't think that's the only thing that led to the A. A lot of it has to do with dependency on my part and his tendency to hide his emotions from those he considers close. He talked but not about the important things.<P>It's an effort at times to hear things he has to say and not jump on him. But I have to. If I give him a safe, comfortable place to air out and vent. If I make him feel protected and that his feelings are okay and he won't be "punished" for them then those loving feelings between us can return.<P>I'm finding it less hard to do because I love my H and I want him to feel as ifI'll never hurt him. By giving him a non-judgemental sanctuary I feel things will get better. My need for revenge has abated and honestly I don't have the heart to hurt him.

BR-I'm in the same situation you are, when we began having problems & he would attempt to tell me his feelings-they were feelings that threatened me-I would just try to tell him how wrong those feelings were, instead of just listening.<P>Since I've realized this I've had to listen to him talk to me about OW (yick!!). . .I just have to listen. Believe me I want to scream when he talks about her, I still want to tell him all of my "superior insights", but I've learned I can't change him, or his thoughts/feelings. He's going to learn about them on his own. So I just listen, just be his friend. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do.<P>You're on the right track, and it's a very important realization you've come to about yourself. Good luck.

Bramblerose -<P>I think you're gettingit - the best thing that a WS can to is to be honest with you about their feelings. As a former WS, it is very difficult to tell your S that you may have been in love with someone else. It is definitely NOT that they were a better catch (just the opposite) - but they were giving us something that we needed - but as a WS we didn't know that we needed - until it was too late - or even until we had come out of the fog.<P>To me, now I know what I was missing - and it wasn't all my H's fault - not at all, but I was afraid to communicate with him - to be honest with him about my feelings. The affair really woke us up.<P>I think it is a very good sign that your H is being this open to you - yes, I know it hurts, but if you can bear with the pain for a little while, I really think you two will get through this. It's like putting anitspectic on a wond - it hurts like he-- at first - all this honesty and sharing - but I think it's the only way in which you can heal from the wound of infidelity. I think in the end it will draw you two closer and that's what you want.<P>It does take a while for the OP's love bam deposits to empty out of the bank - but They do, trust me. And hang in there. If you ever have any questions - from my perspective - just post or you can email me at SKM_MB@hotmail.com.<P>I think you and your H will get through this, but my thoughts and prayers are with you.

At the risk of being the skunk at the garden party, what are all of you thinking?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ugh, I can't even begin to describe how awful it felt to hear him talk about her with regret, telling me how she understood him, how he could have spent his life with her had he met her under different circumstances...etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This sounds like the usual "soulmate" BS that we all get from the WS. I used the same lines 15 years ago, when I was the WS.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As a result of his fear, he has lied to me about his emotions and feelings. He's kept them hidden for all of our 14 year relationship (10 of those married).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is his responsibility to confront his fears and deal with you as an adult. Nothing that either of you did gives you the right to invest emotional energy in others. The emotional energy is for your spouse.<P>Look, I know we are all hurting because of the situations we are all going through. However, the bottom line to WS's in my truth (because we all have our own) is, grow up. Yeah, you may have a down time right now, yes this other person "understands" you so much better, yes you can "be yourself" with them. But for how long? You could do all of that when you started with the one you have now betrayed. What happens when you get a few years down the road and you repeat the pattern with this one? Are you going to destroy another family?<P>It's called being responsible for your actions. It's called being responsible for your feelings. It's called being an adult. Try it sometime.<P>Now it is possible that rants like this are what caused my wife to leave. I don't know, that's just my opinion.<P>

Perhaps. But for me the love I have for my H makes it possible for me to forgive and actually want to try and help him through this.<BR> The A has not turned out to be a bed of roses for him either and every day he has to suffer the guilt of what he did to me and to the OW and to himself. He's coming to realize the gravity of the situation and the reprecussions for everyone that was involved.<BR> The vows I took I meant, it doesn't matter if he broke them. For better or worse. Well, this is the worst and I vowed to stand by him through it.<BR> I don't know if we'll make it or not but while he is still my H I will stand by those vows I made and be strong for both of us. I love him too much to hate him or enjoy watching him hurt, even if during the A he forgot about my feelings.

To everyone that responded:<P>Thanks!! I'm glad to see that I am making progress with my own thought processes about what has happened to my marriage.<P>SKM: I may take you up on your offer, in fact I *know* that I probably will, especially during my really down in the dumps days. I want you to know that reading your posts usually gives me hope that one day my H will reach a similar spot. He's not even out of the fog yet, and it's hard to be patient. Thank you for being here on these boards.<P>Grandpabri: You aren't a skunk! <P>I think you misunderstood my post to the extent that you seem to think that I was trying to excuse my husband's A. Not in the least was that my intention. But also realize that my H and I are (supposedly) in recovery. Time will tell, but for right now, he has cut contact, he is in talks with Steve Harley and he is going through the motions even if his commitment, remorse and taking responsibility is not at the levels that I want it.<P>My biggest struggle is trying to be a safe person for him to open up to now. In the past, I was NOT a safe person, and so he mistakenly opened up to someone else. He has actually admitted to me that this is the case and that he was wrong.<P>My insight here was really an understanding that his affair was not because I was somehow less than the OW as a person. It was the fact that (regardless of the cause or responsiblity) that he handed HER a roadmap to his heart and needs. Me, on the other hand, he had given lies.<P>Of course he fell for her. She had accurate information on how to fill his needs. I didn't. <P>I feel reassured that if we are able to get to a point where I am given this accurate information, that I will be able to fill those needs even better than the OW because I know him better, and love him more truly.<P>I'm just relieved that its not about me being a less valuable, desirable person on a fundamental level.

I am a WS, and I think you have an important insight. After almost a year of recovery, my H & I are learning that part of the reason I got so far away from him was due to my inablility to understand and express my emotional needs to him. I allowed myself to shut him out emotionally (over several years) because I assumed he didn't understand. It didn't take a huge number of disrespctful judgements from the man whose respect was most important to me, to make me stop trying to tell him how I felt. I made the mistake of trying to hide from him my feelings I thought of as "weaknesses." And then I got more distant when I labeled his inability to understand (because I didn't tell him, duh), as not caring. <P>I would imagine that your H's trust in you that you can accept his deep feelings is shaky right now. Walls were built. So what helps me is that my H tries very hard not to use disrespectful judgements and tries to understand how I feel, even when it hurts him or he simply doesn't agree. This opens up doors for our communication that really helps. It will take a lot of strength on your part to listen when you don't always like what you are hearing. And I don't mean that these feelings are only about the OW or the A. I mean about many other topics you share. <P>Grandpabri's comments don't really adress the fact that the communication problems you need to work on existed before the A. None of this is excusing the affair. I see it as trying to address the underliying issues from the huge disadvantage of being in the aftermath of an A. Ideally, we could have acknowledged these problems before any of this ever happened. That's history, though.<p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited January 29, 2001).]

Dear Clouds:<P>You are so right - I am trying to address the underlying issue of communication, which I believe is really the culprit in all of this mess.<P>I am the Queen of Disrespectful Judgements. Further conversations with my husband this weekend has uncovered a number of things that I do that make it hard for him to talk to me.<P>I need to sit on my hands, and put a cork in my mouth when he starts to talk. I have to learn to sit quietly and listen without judging, arguing, and pressuring.<P>And you are also right - its not just with the affair topic, its in everything we talk about. At the very least, I'll be a better person for learning to correct my part in this mess.<P><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited January 29, 2001).]

Bramblerose, you will have to compete with me for Queen of Disrespectful Judgments. I still have a problem with this at times. My h & I are 2+ years into a good recovery. <P>He never lapsed into another communication with ow once they were "caught." However, during his ea and during the first months of recovery, MANY of the "truths" that he came up with turned out not to be true at all, but more of his skewed thinking concocted to justify his affair or to enable him to live with himself after discovery and after facing the unreality of their relationship in counseling.<P>Your h's "truths" may really hurt now, but do not be discouraged. A year from now he may not believe he said some of those things. My h has no recollection at all of many of the things he said during our many relationship talks.<P>Try to keep his observations in perspective. The confusion does not end as soon as the affair stops. A lot of what he tells you about his feelings for ow may seem real to him now, but give it time. <P>Meanwhile, continue the struggle to be supportive, to improve yourself as his wife, and to act respectful even when he is defensive and even illogical. <P>I as just trying to say don't trust his judgment too quickly. Some of the things that he thinks he sees clearly are still part of the fog.