My H, tells me that the guilt is something that he will live with forever? I try not to talk about the A because it hurts him so badly. This is hard for me, as it is with me daily. Any thoughts on this, I am just curious as to how it will compare with the BS and our reactions. Jenni

Off topic question ......<P>...are you a Beatles fan HardDayNight?<P> <P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*

I have read the other post, and I must say that from what I read I am truly disgusted with myself for what I have done. I could never imagine something like that, knowing that *I* was the cause.<P>My guilt feels like everyone around me knows what I have done. I am too ashamed to look at anyone, or even look at myself. It feels like it will go on forever, that I will always have this hole in my heart, knowing that I am the cause of so much pain. When It gets so great, I just sit there and cry. Gut wrenching pain knowing that I have destroyed my family and there life.<P>My h tells me that it will pass, well, I'm not sure it will. Just like the betrayed have their rollercoaster of emotions, so do we. It's like shock, disbelief, wondering how we can ever make it right.<P>Right now, I am going thru a very dark spot. Thinking that suicide is the only way out. But, I know that is wrong. The pain that I caused is too much for to bear, but, doing that would be just as bad, if not worse. Its hard to wake up each morning knowing that you are scum. You wake up and wish it all were a bad dream, or wish that you don't wake up at all. You dread the future, and hate the past. All joy is completly gone. <P>When your spouse is nice to you, you feel guilty, just knowing what you did to them. It is a something you struggle with all the time. <BR>

I'm the BS, and I see no signs of guilt from my still separated wife. I look for signs of it at every meeting, but she's still beligerant and aggressive - and her affair shows signs of dying a natural death. She's either a terrific actress, or it hasn't hit her yet. Of course, I hope for the latter.<P>WAT

PlainJane, Your not alone, I'm in the same spot, the guilt is to much to take most of the time. Giving up is not the answer, I thought about it as well. I told myself life is what you make of it,I made a mess of mine,but now I give my all to make it better than ever,it helps, every time I do something nice for my wife I feel good that I'm trying. It's a long hard climb out of that big hole we are in,but the more you try the closer the top gets, one day we will step out of that hole and the long hard climb will have been worth it!!!<BR>Keep your chin up!<BR>nighthawk...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My H, tells me that the guilt is something that he will live with forever? I try not to talk about the A because it hurts him so badly. This is hard for me, as it is with me daily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure if you mean to infer that his guilt isn't with him daily. I'm certain that it is. But men may not show it the way you think they would if they "truly" felt guilty. It's not that your bringing it up reminds him of something he's forgotten or put behind him. I'm reasonably sure that it eats away at him inside, especially when he witnesses what may be more visible hurt in your face or your mood.<P>If you talk about it, do you only talk about the hurt, the pain? Or is that part of a broader conversation that also includes talk about progress? The latter is a more useful topic, of course, since he can't undo what he did. If secretly you want him to show some suffering, I would think that somehow that is detectable, or perhaps predicatble (based on past conversations), and could undermine the possible good that could come from communicating about more positive, achievable things. Food for thought, I hope.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 28, 2001).]

I'm the BS but I know my H's guilt is at an amazing high. Guilt over my pain and the pain caused to the OW. He's been drinking a lot to dull it and often acts irritable but I know it's because he's not handling the pain well. He never did.

HDN<P>Your H is correct is saying that. I am also the WS and I have lived with the guilt and will continue to live with the guilt for the rest of my life. It no longer consumes me as it did in the beginning, but it sure is still there.<P>There are always constant reminders, just as there are reminders for the BS. Films that contain infidelity for example, always bring that guilt right back to the surface once again.<P>Talking about what happened with my W, about how hurt she was, also brings it back in a big way.<P>You do learn to deal with it, just as the BS learns to deal with the affair. It is not easy, but working as a team it is possible to overcome and continue to rebuild a strong and successful marriage. JMO<P>Lizard

Ivory, It is not that I don't believe my H, I do, it is just a double edged sword, I have never handled guilt well, so I can imagine his. The thing is I find it helpful and reassuring to talk things thru. I am always careful to use I statements and view us a team. I tell him that this is our problem, not his not mine. I just need to talk about things, emotions etc to get my feet back on an even ground, when he gets defensive and balks it just feels like he is minimizing the pain caused by this. No Ivory I don't try to make him feel worse, although I do believe that we all have to face the consequences of our choices, and as I have had to many times in the past, it is not always pleasant. <P><BR>Lizard<BR>Thank you for your input, strange that you say that the triggers are there for you also, I always worry that the triggers for him are things that will trigger memories that are good, although in my rational mind, (on the rare occasion that I have one) I know that he doesn't have any good memories of the A. I too am holding out hope that our marriage will one day be on firmer ground. Jenni

HDN -<P>When I first joined marriagebuilders, there was a topic posted and I'll try to link it here. I posted alot about the "guilty feelings," and maybe it might help - you can read through the whole thing, or jump to page two - where my post is.<P>FYI, for anyone who knows my story, this link contains my very first post on this site - my what a long way I have come!<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000722.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000722.html</A> <P><p>[This message has been edited by SKM (edited January 29, 2001).]

SKM-<BR>Hi, I’m new to post here, although I have been lurking for several months. Thanks for putting in the link to your first post. I could write most of that myself right now. I can see from reading many of your recent posts how far you have come. Yours was the first post I’ve read that matched so clearly my reluctance to post. I still don’t want anyone to know about the bad thing I did, even strangers in cyberspace. I just wanted to let YOU know how much your patience, wisdom and perspective have helped me in the last few months. You said in your early post that you wished you could wish you could succeed in the “redeemed social condition” part of Emerson’s<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived; This is to have succeeded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, IMHO, you have succeeded in a some way here at MB. I know your thoughts have helped me, and I haven’t even had the nerve to post and tell my story!<P>HDN-<BR>I have been reading about guilt, shame, and forgiveness. I am just learning (sorry, JL, for using your namesake). It helps me to understand that shame, which many of us WS feel upon discovery, is very destructive. Shame is feeling you are inadequate, inferior, lacking, not good enough, "ashamed of myself." .... shame is when we feel disappointed about something inside us, our basic nature. Shame is an inner torment: feeling cowardice, stupid, unloved, worthless, "a bad person." <BR>(I copied this from another web site, sorry I can’t quote who wrote it.)<P>Guilt is not as destructive. We WSs need to feel guilt, because it is our conscience telling us what is right/wrong. Guilt is hard/painful sometimes, but is also a point of departure for starting to live better. Like any addict, until you admit you have done wrong, see your addiction and the consequences, you can’t start to improve. <P>Guilt is hard to live with. Shame is incapacitating. And I guess my understanding is that guilt is knowing that you did a terrible thing. Shame is feeling like you are a terrible person. Early in reading MB posts that thought from one “old-timer” hit me like a lightning bolt. <P>HDN - I guess I would agree that your H will always live with the guilt. Even as you recover it will be a scar he will have, but needs to have. He can never feel “good” about what he did, but the guilt is only an acknowledgment that he did wrong and knows it. What he needs to work on, is forgiving himself so that he does not have to feel shame. I am no expert, but I sure have some recent experience with guilt!<p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited January 29, 2001).]

SKM<BR>I linked to the post, actually I read both pages, it helped shed some light on what my H might be feeling, Part of me is so afraid that he might not know the magnitude of my pain, or realize how much this hurts still. Part of me is still just so afraid that I will feel this again. I know it is important not to dwell on the hurt, My hat is off to your H, that is what I want to be like, I succeed sometimes, then a trigger will come up and it seems the more I try to hide the fact, the worse the "look" gets. My H see's it and I know by the look on his face that he realizes that I have drifted. My question is how on earth do I become the "full time" I love you regardless kind of person. I could sure take lessons from your H. Your post said that he was that way before the A. That is the way I was, I want to be that way again. Jenni

Clouds<BR>I am so grateful for this forum, it has helped me thru a many sleepless nights, On my good days I realize that I don't want my H to suffer the rest of his life, I feel guilty because my pain is causing him pain. I want so badly to be nothing but happy and loving, then my emotions run amuck and I know he knows it. I do want him to know that his behavior was destructive not only to me but to him. To our life, our dreams. I just don't want him to live miserably, sometimes I think that I want him to be happy and I am hindering that. God I do hate this rollercoaster ride of emotions. I do thank you and SkM and the rest for posting. Jenni

Jenni -<P>Your question was how do you become that "I love you regardless" kind of person all the time. And, unfortunately, I don't think I have an answer for that. I do know that things will get better - you've just been hurt really badly, and I thank God that I do not have to experience the kind of pain that BSs feel.<P>But, don't worry about your H not understanding the kind of pain that you are going through. I'm sure that I've posted this before, but for me, it's not that my pain is any worse than my H's - it's just different. I mean, think about all the pain and hurt that you have endured. How would you like to be the person who caused all that pain and hurt? The hardest part with living with what I have done, is trying to comprehend how I could be so mean and so cruel to the one person who truly loved me?<P>My H is an amazing person. He has his faults like everyone esle, but really, if I were in his position, I don't know what I would have done. I hope that we could work through it, but I can't imagine the hardship of trying to trust someone again.<P>I think that's why it's probably very important for you to talk to your H about the way that you BOTH feel. My H didn't wear his heart on his sleeve, so I constantly had to ask him how HE was doing. And, I would always try to share my feelings with him. I mean, I didn't share every waking thought with him, but when something had been on my mind for a couple of days and it was affecting my moods, then I would talk to him about it.<P>I think, if your H is anything like me, you don't have to worry about him feeling his own kind of pain. I was absolutely miserable for a long time, and am now just getting to the point where I can live with myself. I would definitely try to talk to your H about the way you feel and see if you all can come up with an action plan together.<BR>Maybe there is something he can do to ease your pain - give you more reassurances, etc. . . And, maybe there's something you can do to help him.<P>But, believe me, if he expresses his remorse only half as much as I do, I think he is aware of how this has affected you, your family and your future. But the problem is, you can take away what happened in the past, but you can make changes today that will make your future together even brighter.<P>In a book I read called Strengthening Your Grip by Charles Swindoll, the author says that life is 10 percent of what happens to you and 90 percent how you respond to it. You have the power to choose your own attitude (and I know it's hard right now, but in time, I think it will come). No matter what anyone does to you, the attitude choice is yours to make. "Bitterness or forgiveness. To give up or to go on, Hatred or Hope. Determination to endure or the paralysis of self-pity." The author goes on to say that we spend more of our time concentrating and fretting over the things that can't be changed - than we do giving attention to the things that we can change.<P>Now, I know this is easier said than done, but give yourself a break. You are entitled to feel angry and hurt. But, when you are ready to move forward, try talking it through with your H. Like you said, you don't want to miserable forever, you want to go back to the happy, go-lucky, no care in the world kind of person that you were. Well, you're still that same person - you've just been hurt. You can get past this.<P>Sometimes, and I know I shouldn't be giving advice on this one, but sometimes, just like I need to get past my own self-pity - so does my H. Yes, this happened, it's horrible, but how are you going to let it affect you? I was tempted and gave in. On more than one occasion, my faith has been tested, and I have come up short. Don't lose faith, don't lose hope. If you are Christian, pray about this, rely on God to help you fight this battle.<P>When I was at my lowest point, after the affair, and after I had tried to do some other things out of desperation, I simply prayed to God to fight this battle for me - for I was too weak. I turned everything over to Him, and He is the one who saved me from despair. It really was my own little miracle. So, I know a lot of people say pray about this and pray about that. And there was a time when I doubted the power of prayer - but no more. I mean it was bad. But there is always hope. And things will get better - but there's no rush to do so. Take your time - I think healing is a process, grieving over the lost image of your marriage - it takes times - so cut yourself some slack. OK?<P>You are such a good person. You are trying to live through this - just try not to concentrate on the things you cannot change and focus on the things you can. And hang in there. Just like my faith was tested, yours is probably being tested, too. You can endure this - I know you have the strength to do so, or you would have not even come to this site for advice. Just take care of yourself.<BR>

Anyone who has been here the past few weeks knows my story. I am (was) the WS. My W did nothing to move me into my behavior. I wanted the best of both worlds. I was with three women while we dated(13 years ago), not engaged, and slept with all three. This hurt my W with a hurt so bad I think it may have been worse that the two one night affairs I had when I was married.(one eight eight years ago, one four months ago, She knew nothing of this until I dumped everything on her 12/26/00) I at first thought the one night affairs were not so bad because they did not involve intercourse. Now I see that the actual acts do not mean that much, but the act as a whole is the problem.<P>I have maintained that I love my wife, and never stopped loving her. She has told me that is not the kind of love she wanted. I can now look her in the eye and tell her that there will never be another. How do I know this? Well, I posted a response on what it felt like to be betrayed. I received 38 responses. It made me cry to see what I did to my W, and I didn't have to actually feel it, she did. I would not wish that kind of pain on my worst enemy, and I did it to the one I love the most.<P>How does the guilt feel? Well, I confessed to her, so I didn't get caught or anything and was not confronted or threatened by anyone, I did it on my own. Why?, because the constant pain in my stomach, chest, arms, inablility to sleep, eat, and do much of anything else made me, and because it was the right thing to do. Nobody knew about this, but I could not look my W in the eyes after awhile. Sure, I thought it would go away but it did not. I strung her along three months before I broke down crying, sobbing, begging for forgiveness. I was so weak I could not stand, and had to hold onto a dresser when I told her. Maybe it made it tougher, but she came directly to me, hugged me and said she forgave me. I was expecting kind of the opposite. <P>Now, we are (I hope) going to try and work everything out. We know it will take time and I will love her through it, even if she does not love me right now.<P>Does the guilt continue? For me it has. I still have some of the same physical feelings. I have lost my appetite, will to work out, and do just about anything else. Some of the same things a BS feels. The only difference is, I inflicted all this pain on myself. I have to bear what I did. I do not ask for sympathy or anyone to comfort me. I have to turn my life around, and hopefully get a chance for my W to love me again.<P>Some other things the guilty feel. I cry inside and sometimes outside everytime I go into church because I am embarassed in front of God, I can't visit my parents because I can't look them in the eye, I can't call all my friends (what would they say if they knew?), I can't look at a photo of my mother and father-in-law which hangs in our home. <BR>All I think of is my W with another man. I think of every detail, not just the actual state of being. I think this over and over and over and over again. So, some people feel guilt over many things they have done. Even though my W forgives me, because I am a human being, she still does not know if she can ever love me again. When I heard the words "I don't love you anymore" I was floored, but then look what I did. <P>I believe, somewhere in my heart that this will work, albeit a slim chance, I must hold onto that thought.

I am so glad to read these responses. I have given thought to having an A. For a lot of reasons, to get revenge, to let him know how it feels, to feel loved again, cherished, yes I know these feelings would not last. After reading these post, I am so glad that I do not have that guilt to carry, I do carry guilt even today for leaving my first husband for this one, even though our marriage was bad, I know now that it wasn't that bad. I can't actually say I cheated on my first husband because I had moved out but in all essence I suppose I did. That in itself is enough to hang my head over. I could not even imagine living with my H and having to lie to cover my tracks. After reading the post, I don't think I have to worry about my H not feeling my pain, he has enough to feel I am sure, he sounds like the rest of the ws's on the board. Thank you all so very much, for tonight I think I might enjoy my Husbands company, at least for now the bitterness has subsided somewhat. SkM you are right I do make the choice to worry and fret over things that I can not change, that are done. I am working on that one.<P>opdam<BR>I wish you the best. I have thought many many many times that I do not love my H anymore, Or that his kind of love is not the kind that I want in my life. And yet it is going on 7 months and I am still here trying to hold on to our marriage. Everyone says time heals. Let us pray that it does. Good Luck. Jenni

I got through the guilt and shame w/ this <BR>Scripture..<P>There is therefore now no condemnation for<BR>those who are in Christ Jesus--Romans 8:1<P>Shame is planted in the soil of guilt, nourished by memories and watered by secrecy!<P>Shame tells us were bad-<BR>Guilt is the feeling that you did something<BR>wrong...<P>Even though we did something wrong by having the affair..it doesn't mean that your a bad person..a sinner yes..but someone whom God can forgive..<P>Something I have learned in my healing process of a past of sexual abuse, (those<BR>feelings are common among survivors) when do you stop condemning yourself and allow yourself to accept God's forgiveness??<BR>This is an exerpt from the book Beauty For Ashes -Recieving Emotional Healing..By<BR>Joyce Meyer...<P>"I remember standing in a prayer line where I overheard a woman next to me telling the pastor who was ministering to her how much<BR>she hated and despised herself. The pastor became very firm with her and in a strong manner rebuked her, saying, "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? You have NO right to hate yourself.<BR>God has paid a very high price for youo and your freedom. He loved you so much that He<BR>sent His ONLY SON to die for you...to suffer<BR>in your place. You have NO right to hate or reject yourself. Your part is to receive what<BR>Jesus died to give you!"<P>There is also a section that talks about forgiveness and cancelling out all the hurts<BR>that someone has done to you and that you have done to them write them all down and write cancel across them..and turn them over to Jesus because only HE can make up for the past hurts that someone has done to you..or that you have done to others...<P>another thing she talks about is how we beat<BR>ourselves up over things..even after we have asked God's forgiveness, we continually take back the guilt and shame..and beat ourselves up over it again and again..when do we just leave it with Jesus..and stop trying to pay the price for our sin?? When we can't pay that price..only He can...<P>Just something to think about...I refuse to live condemned and feeling guilty for something I asked God to forgive me for..<P>

ThornedRose -<P>Your post was very well-written and very insigthful. It has taken me almost a year to realize everything that you wrote. Ironically, I had been trying to give people advice on forgiveness - yet, I still had trouble forgiving myself. I knew that God and my H had forgiven me, but it was like I doubted God's love for me - therefore, I wasn't able to forgive myself for a long time.<P>Now, I realize, and I've mentioned it before, the statement by Max Lucado that says "Christians are not perfect, just forgiven." That in no way justifies what I did, but it does remind me of the price that was paid for my forgiveness, and if God can forgive me, I should be able to forgive myself.

It took me a long time to get to that point too..and I still struggle but, it's getting easier..sometimes.. :}