Hi, I just wanted to let you know that I read your post (in response to Harddaynight).<P>Anyway, I just wanted to let you know, and well, I guess to encourage you to keep posting. I was really a mess for a while - dealing with the aftermath of the A. I went through so many emotions, I cried so many times over what had happened, that I really didn't know what to do.<P>So, like you, I just lurked around this site for a couple of months, reading, learning. And, I finally broke down and started posting, and it has been the most therapuetic thing I could have ever done. Slowly, but surely, I am starting to re-gain at least a smidgen of self-respect back. I no longer think of myself as pond scum (a small tadpole, maybe, but not scum).<P>You know the funny part - when I came out of lurk-dom, I couldn't think of a name for myself - so I just rearranged my initials. Then, after I looked at it for a while, I thought, gee, if I just added a u after the k, I would be SKUM. And that's how I really felt for a long time. But it does help to post - it not only helps others to see the other side of infidelity (not to justify it, but maybe to understand the dynamics a little bit). And, it also helps you. <P>Many times, I would come here and post some words of encouragement or opinions, whatever. It not only reaffirmed my own feelings for my H - but it kind of helped me to "walk the talk."<P>So, please, continue to post. I know alot of WS get discouraged, but really, we're all just here to learn and to help heal. And, I for one, would like to know your story (I'm nosey that way ). And why you picked the name clouds - it's so much better than mine!!

SKM-<BR>Thanks for the response and the encouragement. Part of my delay in posting was picking a user name. I didn't want a name that would concievably make me recognizable. I didn't want one that sounded too optimistic or pesimistic. I liked ones like "Just Learning." But couldn't think of any. At the risk of sounding silly: I thought of Cloudy (a small step beyond foggy?) and that was taken. So I chose Clouds because the Thunderstorms have passed, the fog has lifted, but there are still plenty of clouds around. Hope you didn't gag. <P>Here's my long story. As I said, I’m new, but not really. I have been lurking at MB for months. I hsitated to post becasue I didn’t want to “talk” until I felt I could honestly tell my story. I also wanted to make sure that I was being honest with my H. I wanted to wait until I felt comfortable in having him read my posts before I started. I took me weeks to talk to him about lurking at these forums. He was ok with that. So I will take another step forward and tell my story to you, although I am irrationally paranoid about people in my real life knowing who I am here. So I will be honest, but cryptic to ensure that I can’t be recognized. <P>I am a WS, married over 10 years, 2 children. My H travels. I got myself into a very isolated lifestyle with my husband away a lot. I had no concept of my own emotional needs (never thought much about this). For a lot of reasons, I started feeling unhappy, empty, discontent, even though I had a wonderful lifestyle, good marriage, great kids, successful career. In retrospect, I had EN that weren’t being met, mostly for affection and conversation. I kept telling everyone including my H and myself that there was nothing wrong and I could handle this situation. I was used to feeling capable and tough. I felt it was my responsibility to my H to be strong and support him while he worked at a very hard job.<P>I met the OM and we developed a friendship, that over time became an EA, almost PA. We were “caught;” d-day was just under a year ago. I totally fell apart upon discovery. At first I denied that it was an affair (no sex). I could not deny the emotions, or the deceit, however. My H never threatened to leave. He sort of instinctively implemented a Plan A. I had counseling for a short time to get past the initial trauma of admitting my responsibility, to help me understand how a supposedly ethical person could do something so immoral, to deal with the shame of betraying my H, OM's wife and to deal with the tremendous pain/guilt of separating from OM. <P>During recovery, I have read a lot. I have thought a lot about forgiveness and guilt and remorse. I have learned a lot about ENs (reading HN/HN and other books). I have found many of the MB concepts helpful, and many of comments from you on these forums helpful. My H and I are working to rebuild. We’re doing pretty well. I am very lucky to have such a supportive, strong and patient spouse.<P>One of the reasons I have not posted here is that I believe there is a lot WSs can learn from the many FS who post here, but I hesitated to butt in with a WS perspective. I haven’t felt like I have much to offer. My experience has been that when I read an interesting post and if I wait a day, someone more eloquent (like you, SKM) replies in nearly the same way I would. But the same loneliness that initiated my downward spiral 2 years ago is still a factor. So I find the “conversations” on the forum very appealing. I don’t have any real time, real life friends that I can talk to about the A, because we never told anyone. So I have felt the attraction of being able to talk with some of you, because of your similar experiences or experiences with your spouses.<P>I also hesitate to post, because it seems like with any relationship, unless a person commits time to read and post regularly, people don’t “get to know you” here, and the experience is less valuable. I am fearful that I may not have the time to do that. I am fearful my emotions evoked from the topics here may not always be productive. I have been wondering lately if I am dwelling on all of these issues and feelings so much that it is hampering my recovery. My husband would like me to try to be less down and withdrawn. He would rather have me talk to him than all of you. He’s probably right. <P>I think I am pretty free of the “fog.” I may still feel some withdrawal. My attachment to OM was very strong. I never wanted to leave my H. I never wanted to hurt my family. Someone on the forum (maybe it was you, SKM?) got it right with the idea that I didn’t do this to hurt him, I did it for me. It doesn't excuse anything, but it helps me understand how I could behave in a way that is so inconsistent with who I am.<P>I expect there are as many kinds of A’s as there are people. I for one, have had a very difficult time simply forgetting about OM. I find myself both skeptical and envious of people who say that after a few months they hate the OP, or have no more feelings. My H would like me to hate him. <P>My H and I both recognize that there was a big emotional hole in me BEFORE the affair. This was a big step for us. Dealing with the A doesn’t solve the initial problem of the emptiness before. My H’s traveling has gotten better, so the loneliness is not as big of a factor. He understands that I need him to be available to me every day, and we talk several times a day when he is away, something we neglected pre-A. His job is very important to him, and he financial security is very important to me. We discussed him quitting, and this wasn’t a real option (I know, anything is an option, but there was not enthusiastic support from either of us for him to quit). <P>We are dealing with me being emotionally distant sometimes. I can’t seem to FEEL what I wish I could. I read MB and other marriage support stuff and truly hope that we can get back those deep emotional attachments. My acts of affection are done with positive feelings, but feel sometimes fake. I feel hollow. I can’t tell if I am wounded, in withdrawal, hopelessly out of love, damaged, depressed or just expecting too much too soon. I feel like I have this gaping hole of longing to be loved and understood, and I have the man here that can, has, and wants to fill that, but I don’t let him. People have written that love is a decision. I made the decision, in fact, I never decided not to love my H (I know, BSs never accept that). How long does it take for the feelings to follow the decision to love? The hope that keeps me going is that we can work through this. When I think that I may never be able to feel enough again, it scares me to the core. <P>

Clouds,<P>I read your post with great interest. I am sure that SKM can help you as can others here. So please do post, ask questions, provide your insight. I think you will find that the more you try to speak, teach, reach out to others here, the more you will understand about yourself.<P>I do have one comment, OK! maybe several comments to make. <P>The first is that it takes time. The second while I understand that SKM asked specifically about you, I wonder about how much you help your H and reach out to him. Now I am not asking this in a condemning manner.<P>It is my thesis and that of other people as well, that people fall "in-love" when the reach out to other people. Look at your case your OM reached out to you by letting you talk about yourself and your feelings and you did the same to him. The result a deep emotional connnection. <P>It seems to me that part of meeting peoples needs is exactly the same process. It doesn't necessarily make the spouse fall in love, but it helps you keep your love or develop your love for your spouse so that you can get through the affects of the affair.<P>In your case it is clear that your H loves you. It seems from what you have said he reached out to you, so as not to lose you. The result his love was maintained inspite of what you did to him. I am suggesting that you spend a bit more time reaching out to your H. Listen to him and talk with him about deep issues. See if you can get him to talk about his pain (Yes, I know it will hurt you), but if you do these things over time you will see that you gradually fall "in love" with him. <P>This worked with the OM and it will work with your H. You can develop a love for him, not so much by what he does, although that is important, but by what you do.<P>Does this make any sense to you? Hope so.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL<BR>Sorry don't mean to be crashing this post, but oh my God, sometimes things just hit home. I have not reached out to my H since D-Day, if anything I have let it be known that I can take care of myself. (Pride thing happening I think). You have just turned on a light for me, as I used to follow a saying<BR>If you wrap your arms around you tightly, nothing bad can get in, Also nothing good can get in either, but if you outstretch your arms you can embrace all good trying to reach you. I had forgotten in all of the turmoil. Thanks for reminding me. I don't know if I said that right but hope it came out ok. Jenni

JL-<P>You wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am suggesting that you spend a bit more time reaching out to your H. Listen to him and talk with him about deep issues. See if you can get him to talk about his pain (Yes, I know it will hurt you), but if you do these things over time you will see that you gradually fall "in love" with him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, it hit home. I don't know how well I've done this. Deep emotional conversations, in our past, are not my H's favorite. But things have changed, and I may be reacting to old patterns by assuming he'd rather not talk about his feelings. Early on, there was so much anger in him, that triggering any of that scared me. His usual way to deal with negative feelings is to suppress or ignore them. But you are right. I at least should be reaching out more to let him know that I care about how he feels and appreciate him, even if he prefers not to talk about his pain.<P>So thank you for your input, and your kind way of wording it. It sure makes me think.

Clouds,<P>If you try this and I hope you do, don't expect miracles right away. Most people would not really like to open up. But consider this, he had anger and had to surpress it. You had guilt and you have surpressed it. When the healing starts the BS really does surpress many things just to keep the recovery going. <P>However, so does the WS. Because of the pain they will cause their spouse.<P>So if you ask him to speak to about how he is doing. Ask him and then just sit and wait for an answer. Don't ask another question. If you have not reached out to him in awhile, he will struggle to focus and form an answer. So wait and realize this will be hard for him to get to.<P>As for reaching him and the place where the pain is, there are a variety of ways and I am no expert. You can start by stating something you feel and then ask if he feels the same thing or somethings similar. <P>However, ask a question in such a way that the simple answer is a yes or no. Do you feel are right? Yes/No. Are you still hurt? Yes/No. That is why sometimes you need to prime the pump and talk about other things.<P>For example, how do you think Mrs. Jesse Jackson feels about Jesse? Now this will call for some analysis. What do you think she should do and why? You are getting a bit closer. Do you think she will get over the pain of it all?<P>Do you see where I am going Clouds. You need to reach out to him. Not just about the affair but about life in general.<P><BR>I am sure you and your H are getting along reasonable well if you have been in recovery for as long as you have. But sometimes just a touch, a slightly different curtesy, will cause interesting reactions. <P>Here is the most interesting thing Clouds. If you reach out to your H and can get him to open just a little and if you then try to help him, you will see him reacting to you in far different ways. I suspect that you will like his reaction once this all starts. You will see a man you can love and that you want to love.<P>So give it a try and see what you can learn.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited January 29, 2001).]

Clouds,<P>My H and I discovered that one of the reasons we "lost each other", is that we failed to communicate persistently when something bothered us, or we felt hurt, or lonely, or whatever it was. We automatically assumed that this was the way marriage was supposed to be.<P>Part of my problem, is that I learned from my mother's behaviour, that when something upsets you, you just shut your mouth and deal with it internally, withdraw emotionally. Whatever you do, don't rock the boat by objecting or voicing your concerns to loudly or insistently.<P>It is a big struggle for me to break this behaviour. I don't blame my mother, but this is what I learned from her and I thought that was how I was supposed to be in order to be a good wife. Huge mistake.<P>My H (the WS) is very good at encouraging me not to hold anything back any more. He is patient when I try to formulate what I'm thinking or feeling into words. This is a new skill I'm learning, and it is not easy for me because I'm still highly emotional and tend to weep. (only 3 mos. since D-day).<P>My H is learning to ask frequently how I am, and to really listen to what I'm saying for as long as I need to talk. We have never been more close in our relationship than we are right now.<P>This has been essential for the progress we have made and for us both to heal, altho he is healing at a much faster rate than I am. I think that is normal, given our particular circumstances: he did not experience withdrawal for the OW but a considerable amount of self- loathing for a while. Now he looks back on it as a mistake he never wants to repeat.<P>I know how difficult it can be to reach out when you are used to dealing with emotions and feelings internally, but please reach to him--you need each other to survive this and your marriage can be so much that it was not before, so much richer, so real. Yes, it will be slow, and painful, but despite the pain and sometimes deep sadness I experience daily, I can see that it is going to be so worth it because my H and I BOTH want very much to be each other's greatest happiness, greatest caretaker, greatest EVERYTHING!<P>I wish you and your H success in recovery.

Clouds -<P>Thank you for sharing your story. I know it took a lot of thought and courage to post it here. I think your post was one of the most eloquent that I have ever read on this site (but maybe that's because I see so many similarities with my situation).<P>I think you have gotten some really wonderful advice on communication and opening up. The only thing I wanted to address was your last paragraph.<P> [I read MB and other marriage support stuff and truly hope that we can get back those deep emotional attachments. My acts of affection are done with positive feelings, but feel sometimes fake. I feel hollow. I can’t tell if I am wounded, in withdrawal, hopelessly out of love, damaged, depressed or just expecting too much too soon.]<P>Personally, I know exactly how you feel. For a long time, I just kind of "felt" my way through this recovery stuff. With a lot of people on this site, I have been able to see things in a different light. At first, I was your typical WS, all I thought about was my feelings, my needs, when was I going to feel better, when would those feelings return, why am I not feeling "in love" with my H? And, I don't know what happened, when it happened or why, but I finally realized that waiting for those feelings to return - well, it just wasn't happening. I was expecting my H to be Mr. Perfect (as always, it seems), and I thought if he did the right thing, said the right words - presto, bango, those magical, mystical feelings of love would just return in the sanp of a finger. My H was doing all of the right things, but the feelings just weren't coming and I didn't know why. Like you, I didn't know if I was hollow, depressed, wounded, "hopelessly out of love," or just expecting too much too soon. <P>What I realized is that it was a little bit of all of those things. When things really started t turn around for me, I kind of decided to take a "leap of faith." Instead of expecting my H to meet my needs and have those in-love feelings return (that just wasn't happening) - I decided to meet his needs, do things that made him happy, feel loved, etc. And, it was a very eye-opening turn of events. By focusing on my H and his needs, and trying to make him happy - I was actually making myself happy. Reap what you sow - well, I figured I had sowed enough turmoil, if I could just sow some love, than maybe I could reap some. And it worked.<P>This sounds great, but it took some time to implement. At first, I felt like I was "faking it." That while I loved my H, I just felt like I was going through the motions for a long time. Then, it was like one day I woke up and things were just different. Just like I hadn't paid attention to the demise of our marriage (that led to the affair), I also didn't noticed when things became better.<P>I don't want to turn this into a long post (oops, I guess it's too late). But, you really sound like you're on the right track. For me, the biggest thing was that when I decided to fully commit to my marriage - to try and rebuild, to try and get those feelings back - I thought I had this huge magic wand and things would instantly be back to "normal" overnight. I expected way too much too soon (from my H and myself).<P>So, just give it some time, take your leap of faith. Sometimes, when yo do things to help someone else, make them feel good - you actually start to feel better about yourself and your relationship in the process. Someone once said "fake it 'til you make it." And I know that sounds harsh, but at first, it did feel like I was faking it - but I eventually made it.<P>You also said:<P>[I feel like I have this gaping hole of longing to be loved and understood, and I have the man here that can, has, and wants to fill that, but I don’t let him. People have written that love is a decision. I made the decision, in fact, I never decided not to love my H (I know, BSs never accept that). How long does it take for the feelings to follow the decision to love? The hope that keeps me going is that we can work through this. When I think that I may never be able to feel enough again, it scares me to the core.}<P>If you have hope, then you can have everything. You just need a little time, alot of patience, and the willingness to endure. Your feelings right now, are EXACTLY what I felt. At best, I thought my H and I would remain married - but just be like platonic friends - that I would never have those intense feelings of love. But, now I know differently. We still have a long way to go, but our marriage will last a lifetime - so I'm in no rush to fix things over night.<P>If you can, try not to put things into "well, I should feel this by this date" and "in six months I hope to feel that" terms. Every person, every marriage, every situation is different. My H and I have only been in recovery for 10 months. When I first started down this recovery road, I said that I would "give it a year." In my mind, I told myself that I would re-evaluate things after one year of trying to recapture those feelings - and if after one year I just didn't feel it, well, then my H and I would need to make some big decisions. But, I can honestly tell you that after 2 months, things were better - I was still kind of shaky up until a few months ago - but after only 10 months I KNOW that things are better than they were. And if I can feel this way after only 10 months - think about the possibilities.<P>Like me, I think you are willing to try, and that speaks volumes - not only for your character, but for the love that you DO have for your H. Once your marriage starts to heal, once you start communicating - I mean really communicating - you'll discover that you can have a better marriage than you had before, and that you can be more in-love with your H than you ever dreamed possible.<P>You're headed in the right direction, but you and your H have to be willing to go through this together. And, about posting on this site - for a long time, I didn't want to be "found out" because I was ashamed of what I had done (none of my friends/family know about the EA/PA), but now, I really appreciate the marriage that I have, and slowly I am beginning to feel better about myself. I am in now way proud to be here - nor am I proud that I "pulled myself up by my bootstraps," but I am happy and content that I was able to go through what I did - that my H was able to go through what he did - and we survived. And, along the way, I think I have actually become a better person.<P>And, believe me, if I can do it, any WS can do it - just have faith. And, keep posting! You really have a nice way of expressing yourself very clearly and consisely. I think a lot of people would benefit from your perspective. You're right, you don't want to spend too much time on this site, and you don't have to respond to every thread, but when you see something that sparks a thought - post it. I think you have a lot to offer this site (plus, I need some help - you can probably express "our side" better than I can ).<P>This is a very long post - caffeine must be kicking in. Just try not to worry, and I know that's easier said than done. People used to tell me (and I think it was Just Learning) that I was expecting too much too soon. So, just take one day at a time - rejoice in every day that you get another chance to try to rebuild your marriage and to love your H.<P>

Thanks JL and Sad Heart, I appreciate your thoughts. We are doing ok, we are passed the worst of the constant pain and torment. We are slowly healing. There are walls built up for both of us, and learning to reach out in a meaningful way will not be an easy thing. I hesitate to reach out partly because I am terribly afraid of being rejected. I wrongly internalized years of him not wanting to talk about things as rejection by him. I simply decided that I couldn’t connect with him in any deep emotional way, that he didn’t have the capacity or the will to understand or care. I believe I was wrong, and he is actively trying to work on our communication and marriage. He is not used to opening up, and most of his emotions in recent months have been so painful, that he may regard my prodding as torture. He has felt some competition with my relationship with OM and my ability to open up to OM but not easily to him. I hear JL’s suggestion to reach out to him and I freeze inside, because I don’t know how to do this. I appreciate the specific ideas that both of you (JL and Sad Heart) have made, because it gives me ideas of what I might actually be able to do. This is not at all hopeless. But it is certainly part of the roller coaster. We’re making progress, but it is a halting process. And sometimes, we both just need a break from it. It wears us out. <P>SKM- I just noticed you posted again. I'll read yours later, some days I actually have to work!

Wow, thanks for your post SKM. I of course, have been snooping on you for months, so I know we share many similar experiences and views. The time-frames of our recovery aren’t even that different. I think my recovery may be a little slower, but I try not to be competitive!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Once your marriage starts to heal, once you start communicating - I mean really communicating - you'll discover that you can have a better marriage than you had before, and that you can be more in-love with your H than you ever dreamed possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what gives me hope and keeps me working hard. I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t believe this was possible. I think this is where MB really helps.<P>I also see this as an opportunity to become a better person (like you I didn’t want to be found out because it was so very hard to admit what I had done). Now, knowing I am capable of being a liar and betrayer, I have a new humility, and I have a lot I can do to become a wiser, better person and an appropriate role model for my children. <P>One of my problems in communications is that I tend toward denial (obviously, if I was able to have an A). I often have had the problem in the past when I didn’t know what was wrong with me. This sounds incredibly stupid, but I was simply ignorant of a lot of typical human emotions an behaviors. I felt like all that “junk” and self-help stuff on Oprah was for other people. I was too busy for all of that. Unless someone else put a name on it and said it out loud, “you must be lonely,” I didn’t get it. And I’d know it was true when the arrow when straight through me, or the tears just came out. Two suppressors/and or deniers do not good communications make. <P>The most bizarre part of discovery for me was that day when my husband confronted me, the clearest thought I had was, “Well, at least I have his attention.” My home-cooked theory on all of this was that my emotional needs changed substantially when I became a mother and evolved as those young children didn’t need me as much as before. It may be my own version of a MLC, when I had the marriage, children, career, house, lifestyle I had worked for. I was fulfilled and challenged in working hard (with my partner) for these goals. When I suddenly realized I had gotten there, I didn’t know where I was. The old “What now?” syndrome. I am not religious, I know you are. So you and I might have an interesting discussion on the meaning of life .<P>Mixed in here were issues about being taken for granted. Before my A, I came to realize my H and children would take as much as I would give. I stopped doing anything for myself, and simply worried about everyone else. (Example, I had no hobbies, few friendships, no time, didn’t exercise, etc.) With my H’s travel, I was essentially a single mom with a full-time job. In my own twisted perception, no one noticed or cared. No doubt I did, and do, derive a huge amount of pleasure by having happy, busy children and facilitating their activities.(Imagine that I could risk all of that to have an affair! This I have such a hard time dealing with). So I sought something for me and in the process I found OM, with common interests, problems, etc. Bad timing. So, I also have to acknowledge that part of my resistance to doing what you suggest, SKM, (although I DO see it as good advice) in terms of meeting my H’s needs in order to make myself happy, is that I have a fear that he/they are a bottomless pit. I know I owe it to him for his devotion to me through my betrayal to give to him as much as I can now to meet his needs. This does not entirely remove my fear that I can fall back into the trap of defining my life as Wife, Mom and not me. I feel like I could fall back into the bottomless pit. HOLD THE ATTACK! I realize that these are incredibly important roles. I want to be a good one (best possible!) of both of those things. I guess my goal would not be a Wife but a Life-time Partner. And to do this I have to invest by giving as much as I can to my H right now, and learn as I go along to clearly ask for what I need. (But for me, this is not easy or natural). I realize I have been terribly selfish, and probably still sound selfish to others. These are honest feelings that I am sorting out. If I wasn’t selfish, I wouldn’t be here at MB right now. Good news is at least I can see it now. <P>I don’t know about posting here. I get defensive sometimes at the righteous attitude of the BS and since I am an OW, I have a hard time with the OP-bashing. Intellectually I can understand their anger and pain is justified. But I have learned to stay away from those posts. They don’t help me and nothing I could say would help them. I think, though, there are other questions to WSs that really interest me. <P>I also realize that shorter posts are a good idea. If we’re not careful, they’ll have to start a new forum just for long-winded WSs.<BR>

Ha, long-winded WSs - I think we'd need our own web site!<P>While there are some similarities between us, there are also some unique differences that should be embraced, and that is why I think your perspective would help people here - not just the BSs, but us WSs as well. <P>I do not have children (yet), I was only married about 3 years prior to the affair, and I think while some aspects of our situations are similar - you definitely add a unique perspective.<P>And, it probably sounded very foolish for me to say "hey, meet your H's needs and you'll feel better," when you've probably been trying to do that throughout your marriage. <P>Personally, I don't see how you had TIME for an A - it sounds like you have a lot going on. I have a profound respect for parents - I can barely take care of myself, much less a family. I think your experience HAS been different - in that you did give of yourself for your family, and probably neglected your own needs within your marriage. (Heck, I didn't even know I had needs until I came to this site - until after the affair.)<P>When I read some of the posts - some of the venting posts about OP/WS - I, too, can get discouraged. But, unlike alot of the OP or WS that are talked about on this site - you are really trying to understand what has happened, and you are taking responsibility for your actions. And, I think that makes you different from some OP/WS. You're trying - and you at least recognize the pain that infidelity can cause.<P>Now, I'm at point where I am constantly putting myself in the BSs shoes and trying to understand the pain that they are going through. When they lash out at the OP or the WS, well, I think it's done out of frustration, and people come here to vent so they don't "vent" at their WS. I understand that - and sometimes, I do get kind of sad.<P>So, I agree some of the posts will make you uncomfortable. But, that's when I think, maybe, our perspective can help - that not all WS/OP are ugly, good-for-nothing, immoral slobs - but that we're relatively normal people who may have made a mistake. In my case, it was a horrible, horrible mistake. I come here, despite some of the harsh posts, because I hope that somewhere down the line I can help someone to be a little bit more compassionate, and a little less judgemental.<P>Like you, this experience has greatly humbled me - not only before God, but before my fellow human beings. In the past, I would have been quick with the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky jokes, but now I feel entirely different about the whole situation. I think it has made me a kinder, less judgmental, more compassionate, more forgiving person. Even though some things might be said about what I did, and people may interpret the kind of person they think I am - I know in my heart, that I am definitely a better person now than I was a year ago.<P>So, don't post on the threads that make you uncomfortable - heck you don't have to do anything - but I just know that I would appreciate any advice you may want to throw at me.<P>Anyway, take care, but don't get discouraged. Post to what you feel like posting to. I like the cattle calls for WS opinions, too, because they're safe. But in time, you may realize that you do have more to offer. <P>And, this meaning of life thing - well, I think that, too, would make for an interesting conversation. I am definitely not closed-minded - and I like to know where people are coming from, what their beliefs are - we may not agree, but I think we could learn something from each other. Take care.

There are certainly are differences in our situations. This board helps a lot of people, but I think one trap many can fall into is trying to make generalizations about situations - and people - who are very different. My feeling is that MB is a good place to look for ideas or support, but we have to sort through and see what truly applies to us and what we can use. <P>Until I went to counseling, I never had anyone ask me anything about my emotional needs. I didn’t know there was such a thing. I really didn’t think too much about it in detail until I read SAA last summer, then HN/HN this fall. I hated SAA because it made me accept that my relationship with the OM was clearly an A. Some of it makes so much sense to me now, in retrospect. For the most part, I don’t have a very hard time meeting my H’s EN’s. SF has been a challenge for us since we’ve had kids, but this hasn’t been a crisis. The scary thing for me is to realize that during my EA, my H was perfectly happy with our marriage. I was doing a great job of domestic support, admiration of his hard work and his good job as a father. I was adding to financial security, and to the limited degree that we had time together, we did ok with SF and recreational companionship. He thought everything was fine. I was happy too, because I had OM for companionship/affection/conversation. And I used my H’s lack of detection of my EA and his contentment in our marriage as evidence that I wasn’t hurting him, therefore the EA was ok. Very sad, but a case in point that Harley’s theory works in a lot of ways.<P>My H has asked me several times what would have happened if we hadn’t gotten caught. I really don’t know, and I cringe to think about it. I don’t know if we would have caved an had a full PA, and then I might have had to confess like you did. I don’t know. More likely we would have gone on as is for a long time. My behavior at that time is so difficult for me to analyze and accept, I’m not sure I could predict what I might have done. The other thing I can see was that it was sad and wrong, but it was working for me at the time. And as Dr. Phil says, it is hard to change something that works. It made withdrawal long and tough on my H, because I had a hard time getting over OM. <P>The other element I haven’t dealt with, which you don’t have, is guilt and remorse about OM’s wife and family. The subject of another whole diatribe.<P>So I expect I’ll stick around for a while and post a little. <P>I’m still working on the meaning of life, too. Right now the meaning is that I need to finish work and figure out what’s for dinner. How boring.<P>

Dear Clouds~~~~~<P>I have a book to recommend ..... AND (best part) , it's NOT an "affair" book! Whoopie!!!!! <P>The book was originally copyrighted in 1955 .... but it still holds up. Written by Anne Morrow Lindbergh the book is:<P>~~~"GIFTS FROM THE SEA"~~~<P>It is about a womans' search for HER center. I saw how busy your life is, and how hectic you must feel ...... giving giving giving to your family.<P>There are spiritually uplifting ways to realize yourself..... as a separate being.... not someones mother, wife, lover, sister, daughter ..... who YOU are alone, unencombered by all the relationships we enjoy.<P>It's a quick read. I dive into it about once a year to renew my spirit. (No... I am NOT Oprah!)<P>Anyway ...... i thought of this book when I read your post.<P>Take care. Be brave and true ...... keep your life simple.<P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*

Clouds,<P>I haven't read all of what you have written, but did read that sometimes you feel uncomfortable because of what is written by BS. I am BS, I do vent about my WS & what I think of the OP is not printable but & this is a very big BUT you & every other WS that post on here are different. You at least want to work on your marriage, are trying & care. People like ya'll give me hope, not that my marriage will work but that are people who are remorseful, that are sorry, you restore my faith in my fellow humans. I admire, respect your courage & the strength that it takes to walk the walk you have chosen to take. <P>I know what it is like to lose yourself, I never put myself 1st, and my H has traveled international for over 17 yrs. We both didn't meet each other’s needs, we will never agree on who stopped 1st or why. I have often wondered if had been a working mom, instead of stay home part time single mom, if someone else would have tempted me. I don't condemn my H for starting an EA & letting the OP tempt him into PA, what I have hard time with is his continuing it & all the lies he has given me, but that is neither here nor there.<P>Again I want to say don't let any vent by BS about their WS/OP hurt you. The WS who post here are courageous men & women, & all of you are in my prayers. I pray that you find peace, that you & your S can work on a better life together. The road is long & hard but the reward will be grand. Good Luck.<BR>

Yesterday-<BR>A book not about affairs? Now there's a concept.. <BR>Thanks for recommendation, I'll look it up.<P>Sing-<BR>Thanks to you, too for your supportive words.

Clouds, SKM,<P>I just want to say that your words have touched me very deeply. You both sound a lot like my wife, who also had an affair.<P>There are times when I struggle to know what she is feeling, or was feeling at the time. As a BS it is so hard at times to come to grips with what this all means. Your words help me get a clearer picture.<P>Thank you both. It has meant so much to me!<P>-HurtingDeeply

To SKM and Clouds,<BR>thank you both very much for opening up and sharing your insight and wisdom.<BR>I have decided to print the entirety of this thread and to show it to my W to show her that I now understand what she has been through.<BR>You have helped me to understand the WS point of view. <BR>I'll have to translate it into French as I go along as well (yes, my W is French and we live near Paris), so I've got some work to do.<BR>I feel much better now and am very optimistic about our future since I feel I now have a tool to use to connect to her pain.<BR>We both know that giving our children 100% and leaving nothing for ourselves led partly to this situation. My W has always been a tremendous giver, and we all took from her and took everything for granted, I thought it was her role to give and expected nothing less from her.<BR>My W had an EA then PA with another man, somebody she had doubts about sharing her life with from the very start, but someone who made her feel good and alive at a lonely and vulnerable period in her life.<BR>A lot of this is my fault. It's just a shame she didn't turn to me and find the words to get through to me. <BR>We are already making plans for the future.<BR>Only 2 months after D-day, I think we are going to be OK.<BR>God bless you both,<BR>and everybody still suffering from this madness.<BR>

HurtingDeeply-<BR>I guess it makes me sad that anyone can identify with my story in a way. But if it helps, I guess it is a good thing. Hey- I read in In Recovery that you’ve started to run. Good for YOU! I am an exercise addict, it helps me a lot. My H says I’m obsessed . It is one of the things I have learned that I need to do for myself. I even schedule my work around it. I tell people that I can’t make meetings after 4 pm because I already have an appointment . My H is very supportive of it, because it is a great anti-depressant, and of course it helps make me so beautiful (for just your old middle-aged mom, anyway).<P>Steve E-<BR>First, I’m glad to know you are in France and not actually up at 3 am. I read a book called the Sacrificial Wife (in English, so maybe it won’t help your W). It was a very interesting perspective on the roles many woman try to take on. I certainly didn’t agree with all of it. And more than anything, if I could turn back the clock, I wish I could have had the trust, understanding, insight, strength, whatever, to turn to my H. You said:<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought it was her role to give and expected nothing less from her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I bet she did too. And if she did, I bet also, she felt that she should do it happily and not complain. Which could be one barrier for trying to send up a red flag. One thing that might also strike home to you is that in recent conversations, my H and I realized that <B>neither</B> one of us (before A) recognized my needs (conversation, affection) as REAL needs. We both thought domestic support and financial security and SF were REAL needs. But this is like saying water is important but not food or air. You can’t compare the relative value/importance of needs.<P>Like everyone around here says, if you are willing to work and to forgive your wife, you will get through this. If after only two months you are making plans for the future, YOU WILL BE OK. I wish I could talk to your wife, but I ever got much past Á La Biblioteque (can’t even spell it anymore) in HS. Oh well.

Clouds - I am a BS. I think the best information I have gotten from this site has come from former WSs. Without them, I would be a lot worse off trying to save my marriage than I am today. I encourage you to be an active participant. There are plenty of needs to go around here, and the more heads, the better, of course.<P>WAT

Clouds -<P>Look at these posts! You DEFINITELY have a lot of insight to offer. That's what it's all about. I don't have the answers for you, no more than you have the answers for me, but it is nice to know that there are people around who care and want to help.<P>