I am mostly posting this reply to see if we get the little flames. Small goals, I always say. But I'm one of those people who writes on down something I just did on my To Do list so I can have the satisfaction of crossing it off. Go figure.<P>I did have one serious thought. My best friend died in an accident when I was in college. I was totally unprepared to deal with the grief. But I had some help and got through. I have always believed that the one gift I was given from that experience was learning to deal with grief and understanding how to deal with others' grief. So, I think the connection is that people at MB's have shared common tragedies. We all are dealing with pain, whether we casued it or it was dumped on us by our spouses. Although society doesn't allow much room for grief when we lose someone we love, it cares even less about those of us hurt by infidelity. I think these forums are popular because many people have no one to talk to about their pain. Lots of us are hiding our situations. And whether it can be fixed or not, whether it was self-inflicted or not, everyone needs support.

You want Flames??!! I can probably keep this thread going - on my own - until the cows come home.<P>I don't have anything else to say - other than that I love your sense of humor. Also, I share the same trait - writing things on a list - just so that I can cross them off. On my to-do list is normally:<P>wake up<BR>work out<BR>shower<BR>eat<BR>etc. . .<P>I actually write down wake-up and shower - so that I know that I will have something to cross off everyday! How pitiful is that? Talk about small goals, I'll probably be adding "breath" to my future lists.

I was seriously disappointed about no flames after my last post, but I was trying to demonstrate my maturity, once I realized it had to be 21 posts, by not quickly going back and posting again. I figured I’d let someone else do it and settle with the satisfaction of getting my 4th quarter tax reports mailed on time today. <P>I am glad to meet someone worse than me about TO DO lists. But writing down wake up, shower, eat, isn't a bad idea. After reading your post I just realized I forgot to eat breakfast. <p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited January 31, 2001).]

WE HAVE FLAMES! YIPPEEE!

Quick question for Clouds,<BR>you seem to have a hell of a lot of insight and depth of analysis for someone who had "only an EA" (this my way of seeing it).<BR>Sorry if this reads harsh, I just wanted to be sure, I reread your posts and can't find any reference anywhere to a PA.<BR>Because if you did not have a PA (luckily for you), you do not have to deal with an extra dimension in the suffering of a typical BS: the complex of the cuckold!

Clouds,<P>NOthing to add just wanted to add more so you get more flames in a nice way. <P>like ya'lls to do list, maybe i should try those, i never do the ones i make, but have been sorta of, half heartily tring to do the flyladies list, someone sent me her link on these boards when i was talking about what a lousy housekeeper i am.<P>okay, i know i am rambling i will stop now,

Steve E-<BR>Not harsh. Fair question. This is not easy to explain. The A was intense, mainly emotional, an EA. One of the reasons why I could be involved with an other (M) man for so long and not lose my mind entirely, was that there was no sex. Even in the fog of the affair, I knew that if we had sex, I had to acknowledge it as an A, and it would be over. I won’t do the Monica/Bill thing on you and try to convince me or anyone else what is and isn’t sex. It wasn’t totally without an physical element. We held each other and nearer the end we kissed. The attraction was there. The betrayal in that sense was there. In a very illogical way I was trying remain loyal to my husband. I am in no way trying to excuse or justify my behavior. I am just trying to explain my own irrational behavior then. My H had a hard time believing this. So did I have a PA? You judge. I can’t. After d-day, I realized it didn’t matter, the betrayal, deceit, etc was there. I only had a slightly easier time being able to go back to my H without having slept with another man. This made it a little easier for him too. Maybe why he didn’t leave? I don’t know.<P>Sing-<BR>What's the flylady? You need to have better lists. Only put down the things you know you are going to do. Guarunteed success! <p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited February 01, 2001).]

To Clouds:<BR>Thanks for your honesty.<BR>Even if there was no sexual contact, the intent, betrayal and deceipt were there.<BR>However, luckily for you and your husband,<BR>you escaped the extra complication of full-blown adultery.<BR>My W's affair was an intense EA after love at first sight (one year), my W asked the guy, a landscape gardener, to drop by and leave an estimate for some gardening work.<BR>He would then drop by on his lunchtime break, several times a week (my W was at home), and this was on and off for a year as my W struggled with a guilt complex.<BR>She caved in after a year because she was already hooked on his physique, company and conversation (gardening, cooking, physcial fitness, etc). <BR>Then it got physical, my W came onto the guy, first of all in the kitchen and downstairs bedroom, then at his place, then back at my place, etc. This went on for 9 months.<BR>I was at work when all this was happening.<BR>I am just getting over the period when I would wake up every morning and imagine the two of them in my house, and my wife scuttling away in the car to meet him at his place on his lunch break, with my W all dressed up, perfume, nice underwear, to please another man.<BR>I hope you understand now what you missed.<BR>Thank God you did not go any further, because it would have provoked infernal suffering on your H, and even more suffering on yourself. Because it is a radically different situation from the one you experienced.And one that I would never wish upon your H.<P>And keep in mind, no matter what the atraction is (and there will be others for you, when this has died down), somebody who loves you and cares for you as deeply as your H does, does not deserve to experience the pain I am fighting against every day.<P>I love and care deeply for my W, and will not touch another woman, even though the temptation runs high some days, because I would not want her to experience this. She has been in a very bad state for 2 months now, it has been a very self-destructive thing for her, and I am by her side till she mends.<P>I wish you well with your recovery.<BR>

Clouds,<P>Here is the link to flylady<P>This is the link to the website with the routines. <A HREF="http://www.flyladymentors.eboard.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.flyladymentors.eboard.com</A> <P>guess i could make a list for mornings, it would look something like this<P>get up<BR>get YS uniform<BR>wake sons<BR>fix sons breakfast<BR>feed fat cat who is doing her straving kitty routine<BR>yell at sons to hurry<BR>yell at OS to get back out of bed<BR>open gate<BR>Tell YS to have a nice day, love him<BR>yell at OS to hurry the bus is coming<BR>yell at OS the bus is here<BR>yell at OS that he missed the bus AGAIN <BR>call taxi<BR>wait on hold 5 to 10 minutes if not raining, if raining just give up<BR>tell OS I WILL NOT PAY FOR taxi<BR>watch for taxi<BR>Yell at OS that taxi is here, have a nice day, love him<BR>close & lock gates<P>let's see that is the 1st hr of my day

Sing-<BR>Yikes. Now that site has lists. Man-o-man I've got to get out more. I didn't know there were such places. I've never spent a lot of time running around the internet. This is the first bulletin board-type place I've ever seen. I do research for work sometimes on the net, but not just looking at sites for recreation. I know it is all out there, but I haven't felt too compelled to look.<P>Steve E-<BR>Notice how I answer the fun post first?<P>You wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hope you understand now what you missed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<BR>I sort of do understand what I missed. This is why I can relate to most WSs even if their experiences were different. What I did was terrible, and it was a betrayal, and broke my vows to my H. That is no different than anyone else. In my A, I chose to draw a line at a full-blown physical relationship. At the time, I wanted to believe this made it not an A. I see otherwise now, and I feel like it is splitting hairs to say, yeah, it was only an EA. In my mind I was capable of betrayal, and I may have stuck to my own messed up “standards,” but I am no better or worse than your wife. Since I got caught when I did, and there was no full blown sex, it made it easier for my H and I to recover, I think. But it did not lessen for him the pain of betrayal you feel. I managed not to lie to his face too much, because he was unaware and asked few questions. But I lied by omission routinely. And the other reason I got away with it for so long was that my H trusted me, and I knew it, which hurts us terribly. <BR>You wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And keep in mind, no matter what the attraction is (and there will be others for you, when this has died down), somebody who loves you and cares for you as deeply as your H does, does not deserve to experience the pain I am fighting against every day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<BR> <BR>I know this is true. It is partly why I came to MB, and finally after months started to post. I am in a long process of self-examination. How could I do this to him? What is the weakness in me that allowed me to act against my own principals? How will I prevent this from happening again? How can I help us to heal? How do I live with the guilt? How do I become the role model for my children that I wish to be? So I am here at MB, reading other stories. Absorbing the pain of BSs as part of an effort to understand my A, my marriage and try to recover. If I can help someone else to get through this by posting here, and sharing ideas, that is good, too. <P>Your wife sounds like she is still in crisis. I fell apart afterwards, too. Confronting what I had done and trying to sort out the bad person and the shame, while trying to deal with becoming accountable for a bad mistake is very, very hard. Trying to imagine getting up each day knowing the guilt will never go away. My husband, like you, was hurt and angry. But he stood right by my the whole time. Just like you are. That is the pure definition of devotion. Even when I couldn’t understand how I had become such a terrible person, he was there to tell me he loved me, and knew I truly wasn’t a terrible person. He forgave me long before I began to forgive myself. For better or worse. There is nothing worse. You are doing the hardest thing that may ever be expected of you. You had every reason to get up, quit, leave. You didn’t. I imagine this was both for her and for your boys. I admire you and all BSs who can do that. Be strong for her and believe in her and as she recovers, she will love you and return the devotion. <P>Once again, I didn’t mean this to be this long. BTW, is your W in counseling? <P><BR>

Clouds,<P>Pardon me for barging in....<P>I have been reading your posts. Very, VERY helpful! As a BS I often don't fully understand where my husband is coming from but it is so reassuring to hear it from his perspective via another WS. <P>I posted a question for you on the board and was hoping you'd see it and answer me. You made the comment that people that don't post often don't get many responses because it's harder for the board to get to know us. That seems to be true. <P> I'm not one that is long on words! I don't know how all of you stay so focused for so long and can be so articulate. I always seem to be in a hurry when I'm online. Please take a few minutes to read my post and respond...I would greatly appreciate it!<P>Brighterdays

Brighterdays-<BR>I replied. As for the long posts, work has been slow for me for a few days. So, although I am usually rushed, I've had more time. Shorter posts are actually better. It gets hard to read the long ones.

Hi Clouds,<BR>you must be exhausted writing and reading all these posts, so I'll keep this one short.<P>Yes, my W is seeing a psychiatrist once, sometimes twice a week and they are delving very deeply into her past, a lot of childhood issues here. She is in good hands but I do not know a lot of what is being said, I don't push her to know, she just drops me a few crumbs now and then.<BR>I started then stopped, it's too expensive for the two of us at once, she is the priority, I'll look after myself later.<BR>I can talk about this to good friends of mine, no problem here, talking about it on the forum and with my friends is helping a lot.<BR>Most of all, your posts.<BR>But my W is very clammed up for the moment. She prefers to simply avoid talking about it all with me, so I'm playing it her way.<BR>Have a nice weekend.

Steve-<BR>Hopefully seeing the counselor will help. It is different for everyone. I don't think I had any major childhood issues, and when my C started going there I quit. Reading here now, I think I should have picked someone new. I simply didn't like her. I viewed it more like going to an MD, and I thought I just had to go, and liking her wasn't the point. This is foolish, too, but I ran into someone in her parking lot that I recognized, and I never went back. I onlytell you this to say that your W's ability to be rational and strong right now may be non-existent. Her self-esteem was probably low, now it is gone. I can remember this feeling of "I don't even know who I am anymore." Again, I am in no way defending her, only trying to tell you how I felt. Having my husband have confidence in me/us and hope for the future helped. How he did it I'll never know. <P>Make sure you take care of yourself, too. Do you know about depression?

Clouds-<BR>reading in between the lines of your posts, I can feel that you mean well and are trying to help me.<P>The only thing I know about depression is:<BR>1. My W is extremely depressed (she is not under medication), doesn't know who she is any more, deosn't know "anything about anything", in her words; she also has to deal with her sick father and mother (both have cancer). I sometimes think her affair was really an escape from everything in her life. She is living from day to day, and asks me to do the same.<BR>2. I get depressed with all this. It's hard to keep your smile and moral solidity intact some days, ut I'm doing OK if I don't dwell on the past. I'm like your H in this way, I think.

Steve E-<BR>I was interrupted before. I guess if my kids keep bothering me with silly things like breakfast and school, I'll have to sell them after all. <P>I wanted to say something else. I think you are doing the right thing, just being there for now. She probably doesn't want to talk to you. I would hesitate to say this to some BSs because you need sympathy, too. You were hurt by this beyond my comprehension, I am aware. But you seem to feel protective of your W, so I will venture to guess how she might feel. Facing all of this may be unbelievably hard. She probably thought of herself as a basically good person. How could she do something so wrong? Your anguish makes it worse - of couse you can't help this. Even if you do not feel like you are blaming her, she feels the blame and the shame. Sorry to say, as selfish as it sounds, this is about her right now, although it should be about you. She probably got out of the habit of turning to you with emotional issues. And the added tragedy is that (this hurts) her instinct may now be to want to turn to OM. I'm guessing of course. But if this is the case, then when she feels so confused and hurt, she gets hit over the head with her instinct to want to see the person she can't see. IF she has accepted that wanting to turn to him is wrong, then this desire to see him will flood her with guilt/confusion. She can't trust her instincts. It may make her feel bitter/angry/lost. I have no idea where she may be right now. But if she wants to be honest with you and one of the honest feeling she has is that she misses OM, she may not be able to say that to you. Let her tell the counselor. So, you may need to just do what you are doing and just stand by and Plan A while she sorts through some of this. <P>Too much sadness, I know. But I just hope she can pull through. Give her time. There is hope. <P>

Steve E-<BR>I was posting while you were posting. I guess I do wish I could help you. If what I say only hurts and doesn't help, tell me to shut up. I asked about depression, because she is under the care of a proffessional, you are not. It's normal for you to be depressed, but just be aware that you are a candidate for clinical depression, and you need to take care of yourself.

Clouds-<BR>The last thing I would ask you to do is to shut up!<BR>Everything you say is striking a chord and rings true.<BR>I absolutely do not take offense about anything you say, rest assured.<BR>I am simply amazed at the accuracy of your analysis. The OM is still strong in her mind, and I know that she feels guilty about thinking about him, because she told me so.<BR>Neither of us are under meds at the moment.<BR>Please do not stop posting.<BR>But I do not wish to put you under any strain or constraints.<BR>Today she smothered me with affection from morning to evening, precious moments to cherish for those days when she is wallowing in anguish and a million miles away from me in her thoughts.<BR>I wish you peace and happiness,<BR>Steve.