I finally talked to my wife tonight. Asked about the skates. Of course, got the excuse that she took both because she didn't know which ones were hers. (same size). I know that is bulls*** though. So I went into evidence presentation mode.<P>Started out quite calm, but she soon got on the offensive and started saying things like "you have no clue", "these accusations are why I'm not coming back to you", "I won't ask you to babysit anymore" (she gives me the kids one day early all the time and goes with OM....that is called babysitting).<P>No surprise here at all....I didn't expect much else. Just ended up being a big LB, but at least I gave her some food for thought. I called it an affair, and I think I hadn't used that word before. She said "I DID NOT have an affair."<P>Since I did reveal some private things, she tried to say that I must have gotten it from one of her girlfriends, and probably snooped in her email to see an email from this friend. She said that there is no one else that could have said any of these things, and that they are all just jokes. She said she was going to call the girlfriend and straighten her out, and tell her not to tell me things!<P>Anyway, she also said to "GET ME OFF THAT MORTGAGE". It is like I stepped onto the same ride as WAT.<P>Now I need to see what happens, and plan the next steps. Right now, I feel like Plan B, but after an LB isn't the best time. However, I'm fed up right now with this bizarre woman. She did not call the kids Saturday night, Sunday night, or Monday night. I dont' understand that.<P>The interesting news is that she admitted to her boss (my friend that I drink beer with) that she was seeing this OM, but that they are not really dating now because of his parents. She actually thinks that me and her boss don't talk about any of this.<P>She also told him I must have a girlfriend.<P>So, nothing very eventful for me. Any comments or thoughts appreciated.<P>I need to figure out what to do. Plan A, Plan B, more evidence, throw in the towel, become mischievous with emails and evidence (that is my first choice right now)....what do I do? Guess I should see what happens.<P>She said to me "I have done nothing wrong, I owe you no explanation, and I have a clear conscience"....does she believe this stuff?

Did she at least promise to bring your skates back?<P>I find it so hard to believe that she is still denying the A. I would guess that as along as she denies she did nothing wrong.<P>but I can't believe that she said it is none of your business, excuse me you are still married, right? <P>I think I would tell her you are tired of her telling people you have a girlfriend, that you will not become involed in a realitonship as long as you are legally married. Think Plan B is getting closer for you. Don't know if could resit playing around with the email.<P>When my WH lies to me & I know it, I like to ask so inoccnet questions about things & watch him squrim his way out. For ex when he was in London with OW, I know they did somethings, I would say too bad you didn't get out, did you do this, see a play, of course he always said no. Or like when he came back last Wed, it was at the time flights from the states arrive here, but he says he came from Middle East, but I found the luggage tag in the bathroom trash, he threw away (hardly ever does)later but asked him why he was so jet lagged if he was just coming from the Middle east.<P>Good Luck, hang in there,

Aw, Rick, I'm sorry to hear that things are still going pretty much the same for you. How can she look at herself in the mirror? Not only because of the lies she's telling to you, but all the girlfriend lies she's telling everyone about you.<P>It sounds like it's getting pretty hard for you to continue w/Plan A. I know you've talked to Steve before, when was the last time?<P>Sorry, not much advise, but I'm thinking about you.<BR>

For the record, Rick and I talk off line, and the similarity between our spouses is uncanny. Mine also cringes at the sound of the word "affair" and has masqueraded the whole thing as various other situations. Our differences are that I think mine has possibly moved on to another OM, whereas Rick's seems still deep in the original fog. Mine doesn't borrow skates, but at one point earlier, she did similar stuff. They both are in big denial mode and I don't see either one coming to the humility point we've recently read from so many former WSs.<P>But we're only (?) 7 - 8 months in. Plan B may be looming for me as well.<P>Sorry to bust in on Rick's post, but we've been in parallel mode for so long, it seems like any insights could be common.<P>Dave (WAT)

WAT & Rick, yeah, I see the similiarites between your stories. I feel terrible for you both, but have got tons of respect for you. You both get nothing back from your W's and you still hang in there. . .it's good you have each other.<P>No advise to give, just that I'm thinking of you both.

WAT, Rick -<P>Okay, guys. You're gonna freak when you read this one (you'll probably think that I'm one of those guys who pops in here - like engineer-bob and wonder why you are putting up with all this crap). But, why ARE you putting up with this crap? Do you still love your wives, do you still want to be married to them?<P>If yes, then you have to stop giving the WS fuel for their divorce fire. If you're going to Plan A, Plan A. If you're going to move to Plan B, move to Plan B. I think things have gotten crazy for you guys - and I don't mean to sound rude or mean - because you are sending out mixed messages. In other posts, I've seen where you are trying Hybrid Plan A/Plan B - and then you flip flop from Plan A to LBs - and then wonder if Plan B is an option - and I kind of think that is a mistake, to jump around like that -I think whatever you decide to do, you need to be consistent. For me, and this is just my opinion - you'd have to go one way or the other.<P>I don't know. I like you guys and I know you are trying desperately to do the right thing - so please don't think that I am coming down you on - that's not it at all. But, if you're telling your wife - hey, I'm here for you, let's work it out; and then the next minute your LBing all over the place - what does it solve? Don't look at the WS behavior, because it is irrational, it's expected - so, try to look at your own behavior - why are you doing this?<P>I know everyone comes here to vent and that's fine, but the thing that sticks in my mind is (1) your wives definitely haven't come out of the fog; (2) they are treating you and their kids - not with love and affection, but really, with hostility; (3) and I wonder why are you still trying?<P>Maybe it's me trying to play devil's advocate, maybe you guys are at a crossroads, I don't know. But, the hostility and anger that I sense in your posts - recent posts - just makes me wonder why you are really doing this? Is is that you really and truly love your wife and want her to be a part of your life forever? Or is it that you don't want to let go of your marriage?<P>Don't blast me. I just ask this question- not for you to get your testerone flowing - because if you can answer it, then it seems like you just need to focus on the direction in which you want to head.<P>And I know you talk to Steve - or other Harleys (how many are there, anyway?), and I am no expert by any means, but I think I can see why your (well, no I really can't understand them either), but you might just want to check your motives for staying in these marriages. Why are you doing it, tell me again? Explain it to me again.

SKM - fair questions and I rely on you and others to challenge our actions (or inactions). I do recognize the difference between wanting to stay married because I love my wife and wanting to stay married just to stay married. I have thought about this alot and I can say without hesitation that I still love my wife and I see great potential for a relationship between us and a good family life with our son. Period.<P>I think there was a lot of confusion about the hybrid A/B. The B part was really just giving them space instead of forcing Plan A stuff when it was possibly unwelcome. So I think we've really both been Plan A'ing all along.<P>Yes, there have been LBs. Infrequent, but sometimes big ones. At the moment, I am firmly rooted in Plan A, but sure, I brainstorm about the wisdom of doing Plan B if things remain stagnant and I feel like I'm losing my love for her. Right now, things are stagnant from my perspective. My wife has no interest in working on our marriage and politely declines all invitations to spend time together with our son. But I think my Plan A is a good one. I've corrected the things she's complained about me and she acknowledges the improvements - she just thinks they're temporary. She told Steve last December that she does not think she can regain the love feelings for me. She is stubborn and will need some real insight or external push to even consider that she might be wrong.<P>Conspicuously absent are any signs of guilt or soul searching recently described by many former WSs on this forum. She has either suppressed the guilt successfully, or is still in the fog and can't see it. She does not do the crazy things anymore like Rick's wife, but is not totally forthcoming about her life away from us. OM may be out of the picture, but there could be a new OM, or no OM, or just a little lost lamb that has too much pride to confront herself and others over what she has done. Once in a while, she moves a bit closer, maybe to test me, but is acting as if she's just waiting for Aug. 20 when she can file for divorce.<P>The only change I have forthcoming is to try to reach out to her more affirmatively and remind her of my love and my support; to try to make me and my house a safe place. This is the direction I want to head. I learned a lot from my big LB a couple of weeks ago and there will be no more. I have lots of patience and time and love. All I need is whatever magic it takes to have her take a long look at me and our son, remember the way we struggled together for our deceased son, and see the tremendous potential we have to complete the ordeal together.<P>Dave

When you mentioned "jokes". Everything I found that indicated to me my H was having an affair or anything ow said about marrying him, having kids with him...He rationalized some how that it was just jokes...I don't know if this is their rationalizing that they aren't having an affair.<BR>He even thought they were jokes when her and her parents talked about finding me a man so she could be with my H. Now that he is out of the fog, he understands they weren't jokes and that it was all demented- her and her family...He even said most of their affair( lying and seeing her) they mostly talked about work stuff ...and e-mailed jokes all the time....Somethings odd about these jokes-My H didn't admit anything until I saw an e-mail---and didn't tell the truth until I called her to find out what their relationship was...So, the denial continues until they know for sure you have concrete knowledge...Its hard to fix a problem if their in denial that there is a problem--denial that they are in an affair...Its not an affair -we're good friends- they look up to me like a father, brother....<BR>it goes on....<BR>don't know if this helps,<BR>Good luck !

WAT -<P>Thank you for your thoughtful response - it was a beautiful re- ffirmation. I was kind of hoping to generate a response like that from you.

I understand your frustration - at least if it were out in the open you THINK you'd know better where you stood? Or you could start working towards recovery? Or what?<P>But... You can plan A your wife and plan A and plan A - and still more plan A - and that is the best thing you can do for the situation at this point. You wouldn't be snooping - or trying to get the truth out in the open - or so indecisive about plan A vs plan b - unless you really wanted to have your marriage on the road to recovery.<P>Sometimes, a denial is because the WS doesn't want to truly end the marriage - they are in the fog - they are confused - but they know they don't want to burn the bridge behind them. Not burning the bridge behind her is to your favor - she's not given up 100% - there is a crack open there, so open it wider with a good solid plan A.<P>Don't fight over the small stuff, like whether you call it visitation/custody or she calls it baby sitting, those are lovebusters.<P>TNT<P>