My wife called me today, and said Monday morning she'll have separation papers, and that on November 1st she'll file for divorce. She said she asked the lawyer about the issue of me accusing her of having an affair, and "he said it is ridiculous". She said she wants to do things with the kids together, but that these episodes ruin it. She said I snoop and she doesn't trust me. I don't think I'll really see separation papers anytime soon, but I could be wrong.<P>Then the bombshell. Last night I said something about what goes around comes around. Well, this morning she says "don't worry, I'm getting mine now". I asked what that means. She says she has a spot on her shoulder, and is worried that it could be skin cancer. Supposed to have it checked next week. She played me a bit by saying that I don't care about her, and "don't worry, I'm getting mine just like you wanted". What do I do? I simply said that I care deeply and that everything I have been doing the past several months is part of my quest to save my marriage. I said to think positive about this.<P>She again said that nothing happened in May, nothing in June, and nothing in July, because these were the months I mentioned. I said "so it was August"....then she said, well not till November. Yet later, denial again that there is anything. November is a convenient thing because she wants it to be after she moved out. She keeps saying it is too bad I have to make this stuff up.<P>What a rollercoaster. I don't know what to think. Now I've got to worry about her spot.<P>I told her a one hour conversation with another man in May was wrong, after she repeated that she didn't do anything wrong, and didn't have an affair. She didn't have a comeback for that. She said that if she ever meets someone, of course she would tell me right away. I said "well, you proved that isn't true", and the whole cycle starts again.<P>This has become confusing for me, and I don't know what to do. Emphatic denial, now the spot revelation. Of course I want that to be nothing, and I am worried.<P>I'm just really rambling all over the place, because everything is different today.

Of the things to worry about, I would make that skin spot the least of them. Most of those turn out to be fairly unimportant. You may recall recent news that Bill Clinton had one on his back. It was cancerous, yes, but was easily removed and the tissue around it showed no sign of spread, as is often the case with those skin cancers. I would predict that her doctors will not be too concerned about it.

Rick - big denials seem to be the norm when you get close to the truths. It's just like d-day all over again for the ones who are so deep in the fog. I write more later.<P>Dave

Rick,<P>I read this and I keep wondering. Do you like this stuff. The denials and all the games she is playing? You must. You can stop this nonsense and get the relationship on an honest footing. It would help both of you.<P>But you won't. Then you complain that she denies anything happened. <P>Is this making sense to you? I sure doesn't to me. Since you know she is lying quit arguing with her about it. Don't even bring it up. Or end the stupid debate and put this relationship into the realm were there is a chance for survival.<P>You are allowing her to create and warp the fantasy anyway she wants. Trust me on this, when she gets done spinning her stories, you will pay big time.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Rick37,<P> Stick to your guns... I think confusion is one of their key defenses.. I actually listened in on some of my Ws's phone conversations and confronted her immediately upon hanging up. She told me I'm losing my mind and dreaming up the things I was hearing. The denial can be unbelievable. I too actually go to the point where I wondered if maybe I WAS crazy... But I'm not and neither are you... You're living in a world filled with confusion.. Keep your thinking straight. They are the ones who are CRAZY! As for the health problem my WS did the same to me... She had an xray on her liver while she was out and they found scarring... She thought she might have Scirosis from all the drinking she does... I told her that I as usual am always there in times of trouble and if she needed someone to lean on I would be there... I don't know if this was necessarily right or wrong but I'm a good hearted person and just because she couldn't be didn't mean I was going to be any different. I know she mentioned when she wanted to come back home that she realized I was one person she could always count on. That if she was sick I would be there for her and the family... Perhaps that's what she's looking for... I don't think you can ruin anything by showing her you have a heart... Just my thoughts..Crick

Rick:<P>Hang in there. As Ivory said earlier, it's most likely that the spot is nothing. Still, you have my sympathies. I know it isn't easy to have someone you love go through a health problem. You've been strong throughout this, and I know that you'll get through it no matter what happens.<P>I did have a question, which was sort of prompted by SKM's post to one of your other threads. Do you think that maybe it's time to lay all your cards on the table? You've indicated that, due to some advanced snooping, you know pretty much everything that's gone on between your W and the OM. I've assumed that it's been a physical relationship as well as an emotional one, and that you could, if you wanted, prove that.<P>So why don't you? You seem in your past few posts to be struggling to make your W admit that she's been cheating on you, but as long as you don't offer any tangible proof of how you know, she has no reason to (other than to be a good and upright person, but obviously she's in "the fog" right now and that's not possible). All you end up doing is having these frustrating conversations where you try and beat out of her what you know to be true, and she gets angry about it. It doesn't seem that that approach does anybody much good?<P>If, of course, you only suspect, but don't KNOW, from your snooping what's gone on, that's another thing entirely, and you might want to keep quiet that you've been snooping. And I guess even if you have concrete proof, showing her might be considered a "low blow" by some on the board, But I don't think it's any more a low blow than is trying repeatedly to force her to admit to something that she doesn't want to admit.<P>She's moved out, she's looking ahead to a divorce, and she's starting to tell other people that there's another man in her life. While I wouldn't give up on Plan A yet, I do think that the time has come, and in fact has passed, for you both to be dealing with each other on the basis of full information and disclosure. You've done some stuff you're not proud of, and that she wouldn't like if she knew (the snooping). But obviously, so has she.<P>This is obviously your call, but to be honest I've never really understood why you were so cagy with how you knew what you knew. Maybe the information-gathering process was dishonorable, but that's done with. You could agree not to ever snoop on her again, if you thought that would soften the blow a bit. But, IMHO, you should let her know the full extent of your knowledge.<P>A thousand pardons if I'm covering ground that's become moot. I havent' followed the posts these past few weeks for personal reasons. Anyway, take care, keep your chin up, etc.!

JL,<P>I only have a second, but wondered what you are getting at when you say I'll pay big time. Also, are you proposing that I just lay on the table the fact that I used snoop software? I've partially held off on that because I don't know the legalities of doing that.<P>Thanks to everyone else for your replies.

Rick -<P>You know what, I think it's time that you do consult a lawyer on this. I think you have the proof, and you need to "lay your cards on the table" as Taxman suggested - even if the proof you got was through less than honorable methods. I mean you snooping through her email - whatever - you're married. What's the difference between that and hiring a private detective to take pictures of your wife? Proof is proof. check with the legality of it, but one thing really concerns me about your situation - the fact that she is telling everyone that YOU have a girlfriend.<P>You do have children and you do want to protect them, but I think your wife hopes that her "story-telling" about a possible girlfriend will ultimately undermine you. Evidence, I would get it all together, make copies of emails, talk to friends, talk to families - whatever, get it all lined up. It just scares me that she is spinning stories about your love life - maybe trying to make you the scapegoat in all of this.<P>Tread lightly, but I think you should lay it all on the table.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> but one thing really concerns me about your situation - the fact that she is telling everyone that YOU have a girlfriend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me too... big, huge flags go off on this one.<P>I agree completely with everything Taxman said. In addition, I would let her know in no uncertain terms that if these rumors about your non-existent girlfriend don’t stop (and furthermore, that she doesn’t go back and correct these lies to her friends/boss immediately), that copies of everything will immediately be sent not only to the OM, but also his parents (since that seems to be his big sticking point). Things between them may be cooling now, but even if they are, she’s pining away for him in the middle of withdrawal.<P>You CAN do this without it being (too much of) a Lovebuster. Tell her both before and after that you are still willing to work on the marriage, but the lies just need to stop, and you have no other choice. I really think you blew it in the last skate confrontation in not doing it right then, but then again, I wasn’t there. But from my vantage, it’s time to kick this thing up to the next level, or you’ll wind up having her play you just like she’s doing now, thinking all the while she’s pulling one over on you.<P>Don’t sit there and plan; don’t trickle out a little bit for the reaction. Slam her with it all. She’ll deny it anyway, just like I did. You’ll be 99.99% sure that what you say is true (just like my W was), yet you’ll pin all your hopes and future on that 0.01% possibility you’re wrong (just like my W did)... when we both know it’s 0%. <P>I said it before, and it is so true... don’t let fear dictate your actions, or you’ll be in exactly the same place next week, next month, and next year, with her calling ALL the shots. You’ve got more information and weapons at your disposal than most of the BS’s here do, but without using it, you might as well have nothing.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Like others it bothers me that your W is going around telling people that you have a girlfriend. This really scares me, could she be setting you up to take the fall, be very careful.<P>Talk to your lawyer & Steve but it maybe time to lay all your cards on the table if she does not stop this behavior. The evil me really likes the idea of you letting OM's parents know everything but that maybe a huge LB, not sure if you won't to do any more of that now.<P>Not that I have ever been good at any of this, it is so much easier to tell someone else what to do, but I think you need to decide what you want to do stay with Plan A, Plan B or get everything out in the open. I know what it is to have so many lies you want to confront the WS with, I have a year's worth, but they don't matter if my WH would ever really commit to work on our marriage. However, if/when the time comes I will use these lies & the prove that I can get to back them up to get what I want out of any agreement that we might have to work out. <P>Take some time, think about what you want & most important enjoy those wonderful children.<P><BR>

Have you heard of a "Pre-disclosure plan A"?<BR>Some of us oldtimers know what that is.<P>IT DOESN'T MATTER WHEN your wife had an affair, those are blaming living in the past games. They will NOT move you forward!<P>Plan A! NO LOVEBUSTERS! <P>No matter how hard she baits you - don't lovebust! EVER! You must not annoy her, argue the truth, argue the lies, argue the terminology, argue who is more wrong or more right, or do anything to make your wife uncomfortable!!! You must get this down pat right now. I'm serious! IF YOU WANT YOUR MARRIAGE TO WORK.<P>Do you want your marriage to work? I Did not ask ARE YOU SICK OF ALL OF THIS. Those are two different questions. Think about it, think ON THE GOAL ON THE GOAL ON THE GOAL.<P>Think long term!!! Think 1-5 years from now where do you want to be? Don't look back, or down at your feet - look forward! Work toward your goal of having a happy life with your wife!<P>We're out here rooting for you!<BR>TNT

Rick,<P>I think the other posters have given you a good idea what I mean that you may pay bid time. You could lose your children, you could lose friends, and you very likely will lose your W unless she is confronted with what you know.<P>You may not be able to use what you collected in a court of law, I don't know about these things, but you can sure tell your W what you know( show her a copy of the email), how you know it if necessary, and finally you just might mention that having known this for months you still want the marrige to work. <P>It seems to me you are just getting yourself into arguements that hurt your chances of recoverying this marriage, because she doesn't know what you know. If she did many of these arguements would cease and perhaps your Plan A would become more evident to her.<P>THat is what I meant. Sorry for being so cryptic but was/am in a hurry.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I think once you demonstrate through your actions over a period of time to your wife that you will not throw things back in her face, or bring up the mistakes of the past, or make her feel unprotected - then you can explain how important truth is for a really solid relationship.<P>Then she will be more likely to confess. In the mean time, build up your relationship, and prepare her to TRUST YOU with the truth. Don't argue or start unhappy times with your wife - keep your eyes on the goal.<P>My husband has not trusted me with the entire truth yet - but we HAVE moved forward, and I am not looking back. I know our future, and when he is fully convinced of this himself - he won't have a problem with admitting the sins of the past. He is already forgiven.<P>I can tell you this much, if I did not follow a "Pre disclosure plan A" we would not be where we are now. SO - DO NOT LOVEBUST, build your relationship, and slide in once in a while of how you value truth.<P>TNT

I'm just on quick, but am reading everything and appreciate all the viewpoints. I'm personally not worried about the girlfriend thing, because the people that have heard it all know that is it totally untrue, and they all know that I'm trying to save my marriage. They know that she lies like crazy. What she tells her new friends, I don't know, but I can imagine that it isn't flattering. However, one of her friends, who is also her co-worker, has said that she doesn't understand what my wife is doing, but says she lies to justify why she's leaving. This friend said very nice things about me to someone else, so I know that everything my wife tries to create isn't bought into. So, although I may be missing something, the speculation by my wife that I have a girlfriend doesn't really worry me. She's had an affair, and spends nights at OMs house. Should I be worried that something is being said that is totally untrue?<P>I made an appointment with Steve for Thursday afternoon, so I'll discuss all this stuff with him and try to get more focus to what I'm doing. I hope you can understand that I'm new (8 months) at all this infidelity stuff, and sometimes it is hard to weigh all the options and know what the right choice is.

TNT,<P>Is pre-disclosure Plan A just doing Plan A before disclosing what you know? Or something else. Thanks for your thoughts.

Rick,<P>I think you wife is just trying to disarm you with that line from the lawyer about the A being "ridiculous". That's their game. I think that she is just really trying to jerk you around. <BR>Certain people think that if one denies denies denies, that eventually all the others will believe. I think that is her approach with you. You know the truth. You have the proof. You don't need her confimation. Your spinning your wheels when you try to have sane conversations with her regarding her "secret" life. <BR>If you want to work on things in a positive manner, get back to Plan A. If you are ready to make the next step you could go to a Plan B. Don't let yourself be manipulated anymore. You'll drive yourself crazy. I'm living proof of that. <P>take care,<BR>cleo