I know that Harley refers to some affairs having to run their course. Let it die a natural death.<P>Question - My husband told me at discovery that she would push for him to leave his family to be with her. When she did that he would distance himself from her or break it off. They always got back together.<P>My husband had major surgery in October '98. She begged him to leave us so she could take care of him but he didn't. While he was home recovering she started another affair with another married man. When my husband began to feel better at the end of the year they began contact again. To what extent I don't know as she is supposedly still seeing the other married man.<P>How long is this course going to take? Is it starting over and over and going to take longer to die because it had so many breaks in between or what? Any ideas.

I found out about the affair one month after it started. He was absolutely obsessed with her. After 6 months, it seems like the obsession ended or the guilt became overwhelming. He broke off the relationship, but didn't commit to the marriage. We've been in limbo ever since. But the attraction is still very strong, and he works with her so he sees her every day. He also insists he never had sex with her. <P>Sometimes I think this would have resolved itself sooner if he had just gone all the way. Had sex, moved in with her, whatever. Instead he's been walking a line with one foot in the affair and one in the marriage. I feel like this could go on forever. Only if he really leaves me for good (files for divorce) and enters that relationship fully will he eventually realize its not perfect, either. I can't compete with a fantasy and that's what it is right now. Reality has no chance to sink in.

My H began the affair in Oct, moved out in Feb., moved in with her and her three kids/teenagers at the beginning of June or before, and the fantasy hasn't ended yet.

H & OW's affair started 8/98. I found out about it 11/98 and he moved in with a friend then. H moved into his own apt 1/99 and the affair seemed to end 2/99 and we tried reconciling 3/99. By 4/99, I found out OW was back in the picture and I went into Plan B 5/99. H filed for divorce 6/99. As far as I know now, OW is living with H and it is still going on. I wish I knew when this thing would run its course too. It just doesn't seem like it's going to end.

I've wondered about this more times than I care to state and I always ask for reassurance from Steve Harley. According to Harley and other sources, very few affairs last more than two years post discovery.<P>In other readings, you might want to explore discussions of the "romantic" phase of relationships, that period of high sexual energy when everyone is in giving mode. Also, less than two years normally.<P>The interesting thing that's stressed in all sources - it takes communication and significant effort to keep the heat going in relationships for long periods of time. Typically, betrayers have shown a proclivity to run under pressure, not work things out. Since they didn't bother to learn these skills with us, it's unlikely they'll suddenly materialize with someone else. They're more likely to run again.<P>Now, as to whether we're up to waiting two years, that's another question. I never thought that I would. But with one year all ready under my belt, it does seem within the realm of the feasible. I think if a divorce was granted during that time, I would not continue to work towards reconciliation.

I get the feeling there is an issue here nobody wants to talk about... myself included.<P>If people believe there is a certain someone out there for each of us... then we have to accept the possibility that WE might not be that certain someone for our partner.<P>We might be a close match and things are fine... even wonderful... but what happens when Mr/Mrs Oh-My-God-Your-Right comes along?<P>If you are the one who finds this person then you weigh up between staying with someone who is "ok" and following your dreams and following your heart and having the best relationship of your life for ever and ever.<P>If you are the "partner" of the person who finds this person then you are sitting there wondering/hoping it will run its course and they will come back. If your partner happens to be _your_ Mr/Mrs Right then you are going to be hurt for life.<P>I guess the bottom line is that sometimes it _doesn't_ run its course... sometimes it was _meant_ to last more than your relationship was. Of course we can never know who our perfect match is even when we have found them.... but it seems nobody on here believes that some affairs are really true relationships that unfortunately happened to start in the middle of your own.<P>I was married once and found my Mrs Wonderful in the middle of it, the marriage ended and not long after I realised my Mrs Wonderful wasn't that wonderful after all... but I *DID* realise that my wife wasn't Mrs Wonderful either and she was married not long after our divorce. So looking back on it the "affair" was a good thing because it allowed both of us to get on with the lives we were supposed to lead and not waste time on each other in an average relationship.<P>I am much happy now without her and she is much happy now as well.....<P>I think its about time we stopped looking at all affairs as being bad and started realising (perhaps only in hindsight) that on rare occasions an affair can be the very unfortunate (and very selfish) indicator that you were just not meant to be together.

Lostsoul:<P>I'll bite. I don't believe in the concept of "that perfect someone that comes along". From my view, it's that kind of mysticism and romanticism about relationships that causes problems in the first place.<P>Successful, loving marriages are about hard work. The involve commitment, communication, and sincere effort to understand and meet each others needs, over extended periods of time. If both parties are willing to do that, they will become each other's true partner.<P>I will agree with one subpoint, however. There are some marriages that are better off ending. But I will never accept that the way to end them is for one partner to have an affair and run off. If they should end, they should end with honesty, consideration, and honor, and only after both parties have made a sincere effort to work things out.

Lost Soul,<BR>Why did you bother getting married if you weren't sure you weren't with Mrs Right. When did you start looking elsewhere, after the first fight, first weight gain ?<BR>I feel that this is the problem with a,ot of marriages that end up in early divorce. People are in such a hurry to get married. Marriage should be a life long commitment, not a resting place until something better comes along.

Distressed, agree with you. I do not believe that there is one "only" person with whom you'll be happy ever after. and only that person among everyone else in the world is the right person for us. That doesn't make sense at all, unless you're writing a romance novel . And that no matter who we choose, if we don't work hard to maintain that relationship, sooner or later we might encounter problems.Also agree with you that unfortunately, some marriages are better of terminated but those cases - in my opinion - are specific to certain situations. Like someone - and unfortunately I know some - that got married for the wrong reasons ( get out of home - yes it still happens...- think it's time, on the rebound of other relationship etc), or a marriage where physicall abuse occurs. Things like that.<BR>Most people know me in here, and some know my story.Without the benefit of Dr. harley's ideas - didn't know about this board then - I reached the conclusion that it seemed better to let the affair run its course while working ( discretly on the inside ) to try to turn the tables to my side. It worked for me. But this was in my case. I knew my H , new what is reactions to my actions would be, and the results of those actions. The important thing is to rely on waht we know about our spouses. I did that and acted in the best way to achieve my goals.<BR>On the whole, as I said before. I feel that I would live better with the person that ended the affair by himself ( alhtough sometimes it takes longer ) than with the one that ended it because I demanded it, or made it impossible for it to continue. The reason being, first the spouse might just say that it ended to get me off his back, but still continue it, and also because I don't want to hear one day in the future:I ended it because you forced me to it, or left me no alternative, but it wasn't what I wanted to do, and I'm still not happy with our marriage"<BR>Dr. harvey's 2 years for the relationship to end by itself, seems to make sense mostly because as distressed says, if our spouses didn't learn the skills to work on a marriage with us, they won't have them with the op either, and the same problems that happened with us, will repeat themselves.Sooner than what happened with us.<P>Hoping, I do believe that my H's affair would have ended sooner if there weren't that many breaks in between. The problem was, he would decide to break, stay away for a while, start withdrawl and then when things start getting tough, he would go back to the affair. So everything would go back again. The only good thing that happened was that everytime it happened, there was less time until he tried to break it off again, a longer period until he started it again, untill it didn't happen anymore. It helped that she lovebusted everytime it happened <BR>In my case it took about 4/6 months to be completely over ( he says 4, I say around 5 close to 6, but it doesn't matter anymore ). The fact is he did end it by himself and recommitted to the marriage by his own choice ( although I worked for it on the side ). By the way, although with different hours and ( since August) different locations as well, they're still working for the same company.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Who ever said that an affair was a good way to end a marriage?<P>What I said was that unfortunately a lasting relationship occurs in the middle of an existing one... it is the worst thing to happen but it can.<P>I agree totally with your point that marriage is something you have to work hard at... but you need to have TWO people believing that... and considering the number of people who divorce it tells me that people are NOT finding those who have the same philosophy as they do. If they did there would be more people working on it and less giving up and having affairs.<P>On the other hand though, nobody ever knows if the person they have chosen is the right one, or even if they are compatible... of course you can be "pretty" sure but never definate... how many people out there said "I _never_ thought my partner would do that"?<P>I dont think anybody "chooses" when to look elsewhere, its something that happens inside. Things go wrong, they break down, you try to repair them and at some stage that repairing seems harder to do than starting again. For people who have the mind set "we can work it out" they keep repairing, for those who don't they have an affair.<P>I am not saying either is right or wrong, but what I am saying is that regardless of what happens sometimes we are just not MEANT to be together.<P>If I had told my partner that our marriage was going to fail because we were not suited she would never have stopped loving me... but by her thinking me a bad and horrible person who went and had an affair she had a reason to let me go.<P>Either way would have hurt her... and it was MY mistake alone for getting married in the first palce... but if given a choice again whether to make her feel so hurt that she just wasn't the person for me instead of leaving her feeling at least more of a person by being able to blame me for being a betrayer... I would make the same choice again and again.

Steve told me today that they didn’t just come up with the six month time for most affairs to die by guessing. But that doesn’t mean every affair will end in 6-24 months. Some may never end.<P>Just because the affair ends does not mean the spouse is going to recommit to the marriage though. This is where the MB principles come into play. If you learn them and use them, then the spouse may decide to recommit, but it is not a guarantee. However if you learn all the principles it will enable future relationships to be much more fulfilling.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 10, 1999).]

Hi Lost Soul,<P> I'd like to know a little more about you. Why do you feel lost? Have you found the person you were MEANT to be with? I don't agree with your belief that there is a person you are meant to be with, I think one could have a happy marriage with any number of people if they have the right skills and a desire to work out the problems. Tell us more about you ....LU

This fantasy concept of a lasting relationship coming along during an existing relationship mirrors the "affair soulmate theory".<P>Perhaps a fear of intimacy is masked through the illicit sex. I don't believe a relationship that comes along during an existing relationship that includes marriage can be truly good, fulfilling and fruitful. The relationship will eventually be revealed to be what it is - based on someone else's pain and it's selfish basis will eventually deteriorate it away.<P>What ever happened to commitment, and making your existing relationship be all it can be?

Lost Soul,<BR>Statistics don't bear out your theory. The marital success rate for those who marry the OP is only 3-8%, meaning 93-98% end up divorcing Mr/Ms Wonderful. I don't have the remarriage to same spouse statistics in front of me, but I recall them at being about 17-20% of divorced people remarry former spouse, although I cannot recall seeing divorce stats on re-divorces, but even if at the national average of 50%, fewer of them would be divorced than with the OP.<P>I don't believe there is just the one perfect person, otherwise why would the vows be so specific on the changes that happen throughout our lives--better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness & health, faithfulness and emphasize COMMITTMENT, even when Ms/Mr Perfect comes along?<P>A regular customer walked into my store today. I would LOVE to spend time with this man, he's always smiling, he compliments me every time he comes in, he's attractive, lives in a big house, well-employed, money not a problem, he's charming, but yet never inappropriate or suggestive. Maybe he's even "perfect". But, I have a husband and I'm not going to cross any lines, even though my H now wants a divorce. That's called integrity.

Lor - GOOD FOR YOU!<P><BR>Odviously, A tempting (and seemingly lasting) relationship that comes along during an existing relationship that includes marriage - is going to look as appealing as a $100 bill IF that marriage is not feeling so wonderful. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, ya know. (Yes that was a disrespectful judgement, but perhaps needed. Looks like we are losing sanity here.)<P>Now, what a person SHOULD do, before they fall into that deceitful trap - is RUN don't walk away from that person. AND find out what the heck is wrong with the existing relationship that is in trouble, and work like you never worked. BECAUSE - that existing relationship already holds all the main ingredients for a perfect intimate satisfying and fulfilling marriage. It holds respect, commitment, memories and future. And you can take a piece of ugly clay and mold it into whatever you want.<P>By jumping to another person, you have just negated your potential, and statistics show, as Lor put it - your chance for lasting happiness are low AND will be built based on lies, deceit and other persons pain, and that is NOT respectable, and deplorable even if it were to last.<P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 10, 1999).]

LostSoul,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>leaving her feeling at least more of a person by being able to blame me for being a betrayer...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You think betraying her somehow preserved her self-esteem? There is absolutely nothing more devastating and more damaging to one's self-esteem than having the spouse whom you love and whom you thought loved you leave you for another. NOTHING. If you were dissatisfied with the state of your marriage, you should have talked about it with her, worked to improve it, etc. If you loved her once, something happened to bury it. Love does not just disappear. Unless you ran off and married her in Vegas while drunk 24 hours after you met her, it is highly unlikely that marrying her was a mistake. The mistake was running out and having an affair instead of working on the marriage.

Right on Nellie1. Your quote:<P>There is absolutely nothing more devastating and more damaging to one's self-esteem than having the spouse whom you love and whom you thought loved you leave you for another. NOTHING.<P>Is right on the mark. After disclosure, I honestly thought I was going to die!

On the other hand, there have been times (usually during bad fights) when I actually WISHED the OM WOULD take my wife (please!) Then at least the lying and denials would stop, she'd have to admit her affair, it would be out in the open and my revenge would be that now HE'S got to take her out to dinner and dancing and listen to her sarcastic put-downs of HIM all evening!<P>It wasn't always this way. We had the most romantic courtship imaginable and couldn't keep our hands off of each other. (We called it the "velcro stage" of our relationship - you had to pull us apart the same way, or turn a hose on us!) What happened was that the OM entered the picture. I'm convinced that he's the one really responsible for everything in my relationship with my W having gone so bad and sour. And if things hadn't be SO great to start with, I don't think I'd be so angry now.<P>--Wex

What matters is not whether two people are "Meant" to be together, but whether they "Choose" to be together!!! Love is not based on fate or some magical properties of either partner. It is a CHOICE, a DECISION, and a COMMITTMENT. If they choose to be together, they are meant to be together (I am not talking about abusive relationships where the abusive partner refuses to get help.) I am talking about relationships between sane, emotionally healthy people, with the normal problems, joys and sorrows of everyday life. Indulging in magical thinking about relationships, seeing other people as more perfect than your spouse (when in truth it is only because you don't really know another person but would like to that makes them seem more ideal than your spouse), is the reason why so many marriages fail (again, excluding abusive relationships). It is so easy to project one's own needs and fantasies of perfection upon someone that one does not really know well. What we all need, I think is a healthy dose of reality concerning romantic relationships!!!