I would be interested in hearing others opinions between divorcing and having a discreet affair. It seems to me that a divorce hurts more innocent people, like children. I understand from reading that there is hurt that comes to the faithful spouse upon learning of an affair, but if a person is hurt and their unmet emotional needs are driving them to the affair, it doesn't seem like this would be motivation to not do it. I think I need to hear more on why not to have an affair. Thanks

shurlay - I think you'll hear plenty here on why not to do it. Why not choose door number 3? Fix the marriage. If you're emotional needs are not being met, could it be because you're not meeting the ENs of your spouse? It makes no sense to trade in the car just because it is out of gas. I recommend you just browse around this forum to get all the reasons you need to not have an affair OR to get divorced without first doing everything in your power to fix the marriage.<P>WAT

Go and read the Just Found Out, Other Child and Recovery posts. Follow people's stories. Spend time digesting them. That's where you can see the "why not" of having a "discreet affair".<P>Then, read the Plan A section.<P> <P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

I'll be even more blunt. You're fooling yourself. A "discreet" affair will be found out eventually. My W thought she was being discreet, and she was very careful to cover her tracks, but I figured it out really quickly. <P>When the affair is discovered, the betrayed spouse feels pain that you can't even imagine. For good examples, go to the "Just Found Out" board and see how some of those people are feeling. It is like a knife in your heart, slowly turning and turning over and over again. Do you want your spouse to feel such pain?<P>Not only will it cause your spouse pain, but it will cause YOU pain that you haven't anticipated. Confusion, guilt, shame, and other feelings that some of the wayward spouses here can tell you about. My W has spent many sleepless nights thinking about what she's doing.<P>If I were offered the choice of divorce without an affair, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, my W had an affair that has led to a divorce. The affair has ruined a large part of my life, and I've had to throw out all the pictures, keepsakes, and anything else that would remind me of my soon to be ex-wife. It is just too painful to deal with.<P>Is this what you want to put your spouse through? If not, try to save your marriage. If after counseling, you both agree that you need to divorce, then do it in the simplest, quickest way possible, and try to keep it civil. <P>Yes, divorce hurts innocent people, like children. But affairs not only hurt innocent people, but they ruin the lives of everyone around the affair. The OP's spouse (if there is one) and family are hurt. Your spouse's family is hurt, and your children learn a very bad lesson: That it is okay to lie and cheat if you aren't happy, and that marriage vows are bull***t. Do you want your kids to learn that lesson from you?<P>Give your spouse the chance to meet your emotional needs. If you meant any of the words you said at the altar, you owe it to your spouse to at least give it an honest effort.<P>

Let me take your statements one at a time.<P>RE: "Opinion between divorcing and having a discreet affair"<P>These are not equal options! A divorce ends a marriage, it is about giving up on "forever". An affair (discreet or not) is poison for everyone touched by it. In one of your other posts you said "A sin is a sin". Not all sins are equal. Killing someone is not equal to coveting thy neighbour's boat, for example. Divorce is not equal to an A. If the issue is unhappiness in marriage, then there are hundreds/thousands of ways to deal with it. An affair does not deal with the unhappiness in a marriage, it makes everything worse beyond imagination. A divorce brings the unhappiness of a marriage to an end.<P>While the feelings of the BS seem to be uncompelling, according to your post, let me say this anyway - Most BS would much, much, much rather hear "I want a divorce" than "I had an affair" (or worse, discover it on their own).<P>Re: "divorce hurts more innocent people, like children"<P>Don't kid yourself! Affairs hurt children. WS do not treat any member of their family well; this includes their children. The self-centeredness of an A puts the WS in a place where nothing else matters, no one else's needs are nearly as important as the WS' not even the children's. It goes further than being inconsiderate to one's children and not making them a priority, it is about the inevitable withdrawal of the WS from the core of the family; it is about the example one sets for acceptable behavior ("they will never find out" is not an answer), it is about the WS coming to resent his/her own children for constraining his/her freedom, it is about the commitment that a parent makes to a child to keep them safe and raise them well. Even before actual disclosure, children feel the distance of the WS. Ask the people on this site how many have children who started having trouble with school, got sick, acted out, withdrew from the parent(s), had nightmares, got depressed, (the list goes on) sometimes even before the BS knew there was an A.<P>Re: there is hurt that comes to the faithful spouse upon learning of an affair.<P>This does not begin to describe what the BS feels! Any attempt to minimize the damage it does to the BS, to the marriage, to the family, is merely justificatory. There is no way to minimize the despair an A causes.<P>There is also devastation to the WS, when he/she hits rock bottom and has lost everything truly important in life for absolutely nothing.<P>Re: it doesn't seem like this would be motivation to not do it.<P>It should be. But, just for fun, let's add some other motivations - the WS usually betrays his/her own values and morals and becomes a person he/she would never have respected; the WS adds problems/anxiety of a double life to the unhappiness already being felt; the WS will eventually feel very guilty (unless he/she is a complete sociopath), and this will destroy him/her from the inside; an A does not address the root problems in the marriage, only adds (exponentially) to them; there is no such thing as 100% safe sex; Affairs destroy people (not just marriages, but the human beings in them and reliant on them). There are many, many, more reasons, which I will let others write about.<P>If you are seriously thinking about an affair as an alternative to a divorce, please think again, and again, and again. Find a way to reach out to your spouse; find a way to be heard. Do not make this mistake. You will regret it forever, maybe not immediately, but the regret will come and it will stay with you always.<BR>

Thank you. I guess so far I'm hearing affairs hurt people more. Do I want to hurt my husband, no. Have I hurt him, yes. We both have hurt each other. Have I tried and am I trying, yes for 17 years. He knows my needs but can't meet them and I'm trying to meet his need for respect, which he says is his need. I appreciate hearing both sides. I haven't read everything on here, but what is Dr. Harley's view what if none of your needs is getting met and you are trying to meet your spouses need, how long should you continue or how long can a person realistically go without having these needs met, it seems to me that if we are talking needs than a person almost has no choice but to divorce in order to have those needs met by someone else, is that right or choose to have an affair to ease the pain if only for a short period.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shurlay:<BR><B>it seems to me that if we are talking needs than a person almost has no choice but to divorce in order to have those needs met by someone else, is that right or choose to have an affair to ease the pain if only for a short period.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you are absolutely certain that your H cannot meet your needs, then yes, divorce is the choice to make. There are plenty of people on these boards who are divorced, divorcing, or separated. There's nothing wrong with that...some marriages can't be saved after all, but infidelity is not the solution to anything!<P> After the divorce you need time to heal from that trauma, and then, and only then can you start to look for someone to fulfill your needs. You talk about easing the pain "if only for a short period" well, if you've read the responses to your original post you should know that an affair is NOT a painkiller! <P>

shurlay,<P>You've been trying to meet your husband's needs for the marriage. But you're probably not successful. And clearly your husband hasn't been successful at meeting your needs in a long time, although he once was successful (I'm assuming that you weren't forced to marry). On top of that, you both hurt each other (Lovebusting).<P>What SHOULD YOU do?<P>I'd suggest that you call MarriageBuilder's phone counseling appointment line (888-639-1639) and arrange for an appointment with Steve or Jenn Harley. I counseled with Steve Harley for some time---even though I was "trying" to meet my wife's needs, Steve showed me that I was off-target with the way that I was attempting to meet her needs, and that I was doing way too much damage with "lovebusters". These are behaviors that you can learn to stop, and I would strongly suggest that you work very hard, with one of the Harley's coaching you, to learn new marital behaviors.<P>I'd also encourage you to ask your husband to do it with you. But even if he won't, you should do it yourself. You should work on it for at least 6 months (if your wedding vows mean nothing to you), and 12 months if they do. If you don't, you'll be in the exact same place should you start a new relationship that you expect to last.<P>As for the damage that affairs do, they're devestating to everyone. My wife's affair started off on the internet. It migrated to a real, physical affair. After I discovered it, she couldn't (wouldn't) stop. After months of effort on my part to fix the marriage, I separated from her and my two children (which was very hard on them). She ended up pregnant by the OM.<P>We're reunited, and in a very strong marriage. You probably can't imagine the pain that I went through---it was the worse thing I've ever faced in my life. My children were pretty young, but they suffered as well. I have a beautiful little boy born of the affair---who knows how he'll suffer from this. But you add all that together, and I don't think it comes close to the amount of pain and suffering my wife is dealing with, for having made those horrible choices. There are lots of people here who have similar stories---the outcome is usually universal. Pain, unhappiness, despair. Who wins when you lie---to your spouse, as well as yourself?<P>I'd strongly suggest that you not pursue the path of an affair. A separation, followed by eventual divorce would be much better for all involved. But until you truly attempt an EFFECTIVE effort to try to save your marriage, I would think you'd have to live with it for the rest of your life. As horrible as dealing with my wife's affair was, I had to look at myself in the mirror and say "did I do the best I could??". The answer was no. So I went and did my best. But I needed help---a good coach. Call the MB counseling and get some professional help.<P>

You know, when my h had his last affair, I told him it would have been kinder for him to have killed me than for him to have done that. I meant it, I still feel that way. I would rather be dead than to be hurt that way again.<P>If you have an affair everyone in your family will suffer, and who can promise you that your spouse will forgive this ? Many of us do, but there are some who can/will not. I have known people who have divorced their WS without a second chance over cheating, and I have known people who tried to take their own lives over it, Some failed, but sadly not all. <P>Being divorced would hurt, but being cheated on made me question my worth as a wife, a woman, a mother and a human being.<P>------------------<BR>Deb<P>Hepatitis C, Please educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In</A> memory of a very dear friend <A HREF="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp" TARGET=_blank>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp</A>

Thanks K for the advice. It is also great to hear that your story had a good ending and that your marriage is better. It is great to hear the good testimonies. I feel like I have tried everthing I know to do. I'm so depressed. We have had troubles from day one. I don't ever think I really loved him, I think I married to get out of a bad home situation at 18, I do believe he loves me. I'm so discouraged, I have been praying for 9 years and nothing really changes. I've been depressed for 9 years too. We are going to try couseling again at the end of February. I honestly believe that unless Wayne really commits to the Lord and our marriage it can't work. I think he can only do so much. I wish he would have a burden to pray together or pray for me. I don't have a biblical reason for divorce, so that is not an option. I feel so trapped and unhappy. I really don't know what else to do. I would gladly talk to Dr. Harley, but I cannot afford the hourly fee. If your a praying man, please pray for me. Thanks

shurlay <BR>Just my two cents worth, you speak of God,(I am not a overly religious person but was educated well in youth on religion. One option to an unhappy marriage is not an affair. That is like pouring gasoline onto a raging fire and expecting it to go out. I know that our advice may fall on deaf ears when you are trying to rationalize your situation, believe us. Save yourself some pain, and your spouse, it is not ever discreet nor ever worth it. Never does it fix the problem, not once in a while, Never.. One good thing about this board is that it takes away the thoughts of "but my situation is different" All Affairs hurt. Period. I have been on both ends of the stick and know that there is no good that comes from it. I used an exit affair to end a marriage that I percieved as beyond repair, I ended up marrying the OM now I am on the BS list and even though we are repairing our marriage it would have been much easier not to have to. As for my first marriage I know now that it probably wasn't beyond repair. That is why they say Hind sight is 20/20.. I wish you luck in making the right decision. That pain killer for a short time is not worth it. In the end it makes the pain a hundred times worse. Jenni<P>

shurlay,<P>You've gotten some realistic and sane advice from the people here. You asked what Dr. Harley would say, and I guarantee you he would NEVER say "have a discreet affair"! He would say "fix the marriage!"<P>You say that your husband cannot meet your needs - why is that? Do you really know what they are?<P>What did you admire about your husband when you met him? I would bet that you had some feelings for him then - something about him that interested you. Think about the reasons why you married HIM (not about the reasons you married anyone)...<P>If you have children together, how would you be able to face them if you had an affair? You would know every time you told them that lying was bad that you were two-faced. You would feel horrible guilt while attempting to raise your children the way you would want them to be raised.<P>If you feel that you can never be happy with your husband, and if you have truly exhausted every option there is, then divorce him. Your children will be far better off with an honest mother who loves them and who respected herself and their father enough to divorce rather than live a lie. Having an affair is disrespectful to your husband, your children and yourself - not to mention whoever you might choose as an affair partner, and his wife and his children...<P>And, I know this is going to sound silly, but if you are feeling depressed, get outside, exercise, be active, do things with people... if it seems like that isn't working to make you feel better, then get some professional help - your family doctor may be able to provide some assistance, a prescription or perhaps some counseling. Or a female member of your church such as a lay minister ... <P>Don't have an affair. You will forever scar yourself, your family and will have to live with the knowledge and guilt of what you have done forever.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

hi shurlay,<BR>this is aamymail, and i think i inspired you to make this topic. I still havent had sex with my hubby, and all he does is pity me. I can understand that he is not happy, but how can he not be in the mood at least twice a month. It sounds like you are not in love with your hubby, do you show him that, does he feel that you try, but cant? that is how i feel with my hubby. he tries, but i can see how fake he is. I know everyone will not like this, but i can understand when you say, that is it better to have discreet affair. When do you decide, or how, if my hubby all he does is reject me and show me that he doesnt give a damn about me. I try plan A for about a week and he still doesnt give me any sex and then i do major lovebusting and accuse him of getting sex elsewhere, then i start another week with plan a, and the cycle goes on. Where do you draw the line. If my hubby doesnt care for me to meet his emotional needs, and even when i do, he doesnt meet my physical ones, then why should i try further. I dont think its worth it if he will just pity me. I cant divorce, because of our baby, i dont belive in leaving my baby without a father, but i do believe i need some kind of attention, even if just for a short time. I dont know, but i am very discouraged. As for your hubby, if i were him, i would prefer to hear the truth that you dont love him, if that is the case. I have told my hubby to leave if he doesnt love me, but he says he cant because of the baby. i am so discouraged. please someone help us.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shurlay:<BR><B> I don't have a biblical reason for divorce, so that is not an option. </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm a WS myself, so I really have no right to throw stones. But I'm wondering whether you think you have a biblical reason for adultery?<P>Affairs happen when emotions override common sense. You feel trapped, you're frustrated, you don't know what to do. So you do something REALLY STUPID. <P>You know it's stupid, it's the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life (even worse than marrying the wrong man in the first place), but right this minute it makes you feel good. <P>You remember the old line, "Of course I'll respect you in the morning"? It won't matter whether OP does or not, you won't respect yourself. <P>Pretty much everybody on this site will try to talk you out of this idea. But all the logic in the world won't change your mind if you're already on the merry-go-round. How involved are you?

I have been honest with my husband, I'm not in love with him. I know that hurt him, but I believe in honesty. I don't have any in love feelings for him. I married him because he loved me and to get out of a bad home situation, I was only 18. He really does love me, but the feelings aren't mutual. I just saw the movie The wedding planner, in the movie this man did love her, but she didn't love him she loved someone else, she almost married the one that loved her. Well thats what I did and I have regretted it, two kids later it is too late. Honestly I don't think he would ever leave me, I wish I had the same feelings, how do you fall in love with your spouse? I'm not attracted to him, he really isn't attracted to me either, he says I'm beautiful, but physically we hardly ever have sex, which is very, very frustrating. I get men hitting on me all the time, it is very hard to resist. My husband is kind to me in other ways, but my greatest needs are admiration, affection and recreational companionship which he is unable to meet. I am depressed, have been for 9 years when intimacy or sex decreased dramatically at the birth of our son, for me that has been very depressing, before we used to have our problems but sex was still good, when the sexual intimacy became almost nill that really affected my self esteem. I am exercising and taking care of myself for myself. It does seem to help. At least if I look good and other men desire me I know it is not because I'm not sexy enough.

shurlay:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>my greatest needs are admiration, affection and recreational companionship which he is unable to meet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why is he unable to meet them. Unless he's a quadraplegic deaf mute, he really shouldn't be "unable" to meet them (and even if he was, it'd just be a bit more challenging).<P>If you can't afford the counseling here at MarriageBuilders, ask if the marriage counselor you're planning on seeing would help you through the program. You ought to go to the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>bookstore</A> here and order a copy of Give and Take, Lovebusters, His Needs/Her Needs, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love (a workbook).<P>If you follow the workbook, you will be able to productively work on your situation. You'll start by each identifying the other's lovebusters, and then sitting down and using the POJA to work on a plan to eliminate them. Once that's under control (a month or so), you'll then identify your most important emotional needs, and sit down together to make a plan to start to learn behaviors necessary to meet these for each other. If you spend the time together doing this, you will build love for each other.<P>I'm all for praying---but praying without action is just talk. God is giving you the tools you need to save your marriage, but it's up to you to put them to use. And don't use silly (bad) romantic movies as the sole template for your marriage---they're not real. Fantasy-based illusions aren't necessarily where you want to be getting your information from. <P>The effort to repair a marriage should be consistant, not the way aamymail is trying (good for a week and then punishing---that's a terrific way to drive a spouse away). Expect this to take 6 months. But if your husband is on-board, and the two of you are doing this program together, honestly, and spending the required time working on your marriage---you'll see terrific results in three months. If you go the route of an affair, you'll just be throwing a huge layer of complications onto it which will increase your time for fixing the marriage to the 2-3 year point, if it can even be recovered.<P>Don't go that way.<BR>

Shurlay,<P>It sounds to me like you already know the answer. Given the limited choices you consider suitable, I would say divorce. You'll find it much easier to maintain a civil relationship with your ex and have a higher probability of future reconciliation if you go that route. <P>If the pain that a "discreet" affair will cause your spouse is not enough to stop you from going down that path, then think about your own dignity. You wrote of always being truthful. A discreet affair will stop that moral position right in its tracks. How will you feel about yourself then? What will you be telling yourself about your own self-worth? Once you've shattered a few of those core values you might have held as the moral foundation that makes you who you are, the rest of them can go easily, quickly and without your knowledge. Really, think about it, How do you want to feel about yourself in 10 years?<P>Here's something else I think you should consider as you make your decision. It seems to me that most Females that reach the question you have posed already have a person in mind that is meeting some of your needs, or are purely out for revenge. (OK ladies flame away) Men on the other hand only need a place and willing participant. Do you think that you might already have started an emotional affair? Sounds that way to me. Who is in your mind when you think about this subject? Have you had the proverbial "my husband doesn't love me anymore" chat with them yet? Or has that person told you about the horrible way that their significant other treats them? Yes it's all been scripted on this site. Last I heard OOOO or Cjack was in possession of the "official" script. We are all betrayed husbands and kept good notes.<P>So if those are still your only choices, save your dignity and grace. Do the right thing for your own well being. <P>Cheers,<BR>Hi Infidelity<BR>

Hi Infidelity, from what I've seen in the over two years I've been reading and participating on this forum, you are actually pretty accurate. I think this is probably a variation on the "Walk Away Wife Syndrome."<P>Problem with us women sometimes is that we think we are communicating our needs to our husbands when in reality we are expecting them to read our minds. And, folks, the vast majority of us CANNOT READ MINDS! Being intuitive as we women tend to be, we sometimes believe that A) everyone is as intuitive as we are, and B) we know more than we think we do about how others around us are feeling.<P>If you talk to your spouse about what your needs are, and he or she cannot repeat them back to you in his or her own words, then maybe you haven't really gotten through. Find another way to explain what you mean. Keep communicating.<P>shurlay, don't watch movies. They are garbage and have nothing to do with real life. Don't read romance novels, because NOBODY'S marriage is like that all the time. Read books that teach you how to have a good relationship with your spouse. Books like the ones suggested here. Books like "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman and "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis... or any one of a number of realistic pro-marriage books available at your local bookstore or from web-based bookstores.<P>Find the money and find the time. Your marriage, your life, your children's lives are worth that and more.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I don't have a biblical reason for adultery, but I do have a scripture that has applied to me. 1 Corinthians 7:5 says, "Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourself to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. My husband has been depriving me and it hasn't been consentual and I have been tempted. Satan has definatley come in. I do feel if my husband had heeded this scripture, I would not be tempted.

I have read his needs her needs and love languages, actually I have read a lot of books on marriage, but it takes two. I just am tired of being the one to try, he knows my needs and I know his. He could meet my needs but doesn't. I am trying to meet his needs. It is very hard when you don't have love feelings for the person. I do like romantic comedy movies. I do feel kind of sad though after watching them because I wish I was in love with someone. We really have done a lot, marriage encounters, retreats, seminars. But nothing really changes for the long term, so I am very discouraged about trying more books. Maybe I do have unrealistic expectations. My only option is to endure the next 9 years until my kids are grown and then divorce or separate. Do I hope that things will change? No. The best I can do is try to have a life within my marriage and surround myself with friends and others to love me. Basically live a single married life with a roomate of a husband. I am willing to try couseling again, but I don't expect things to change. I know I sound negative but thats just how it has been for 17 years.