Hey all,<P>Thruout the past year and 4 months, I've constantly asked the big "why" question, with varying degrees of desperation. Why, after more than 25 years as a Christian, following God (not perfectly of course), never really leaving that track, did He allow this to happen to me? I still don't have an answer.<P>Many people I've spoken with, seem to think that God *did* this to me for a bigger purpose/reason..to test me, or something like that. Others think that sh*t just happens, and it's our reaction to it that God finds more important.<P>I tend to believe the second....I think crap just happens and God is more interested in our response to it, than to changing the actual crap that is happening (althought I believe He CAN change the crap). However, I don't fully believe this as God has asked us to "ask and it shall be given to you" when it comes to our prayers. I've asked.....but it wasn't given to me (reconcilliation with H). Why?<P>Well, I got a book from the library yesterday that I've read the first three chapters of: "When God Doesn't Make Sense" by Dr. James Dobson. I've heard of this book before, but never really *needed* it until now. So far it's been helpful.<P>I just wanted to share this with others who may be still asking why. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs. O,<BR>I have a couple things I think on this subject:<BR>1) God does allow us to be sifted like wheat--Job, Peter...in keeping faith we are blessed, not immediately, not even in the way we might want to be, but in the best way for us.<P>2) God allows us free choice...which means that your H's choice to sin affects you...and your kids, neighbors, church, friends...maybe no one else knows, maybe everyone else knows. It's like the bartender serving a drunk, that decision (and the decision of the drunk to drink it & drive) can lead to a drunken driving accident that kills someone whose loved ones will ask "why?", unseen consequences of a simple action, and not that God doesn't care, He does...but he doesn't depend on our timetable or plans. He will give to us the good, as we love Christ.<P>3) God wants to be first in our lives...our spouses/jobs/money/children/we ourselves aren't our God. A friend of mine has repeated said to me, "Lor, get off the throne and get out of God's way."<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Here is piece of logic:<BR>Would you agree that the difference between us and God is greater than the difference between us and , say, a bear? <BR>Imagine a bear in a trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to liberate him. He tries to win the bear's confidence, but he can't do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of drugs. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn't realize that this is being done out of compassion.<BR>Then in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him further into the trap to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at that point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches the incorrect conclusion because he's not a human being.<BR>Now, how can anyone be certain that's not an analogy between us and God? I believe God does the same to us sometimes, and we can't comprehend why he does it any more than the bear can understand the motivations of the hunter. As the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God." <BR>I realized before I found out about my H affair that- we can pray- but everyone has free will. I always pray to help us make the right decisions in life- he may help, but he couldn't make the decision for my H- he had that free will from God.<BR>Also, God is our father- looking at things from that perspective. What kind of parents gives everything to their child- not a very good one--The child needs to learn things on their own- work for things- and become a strong and healthy adult. How many spoiled children have you come across. How many good adults have you come across that worked their but off to get where they are. I am in this marriage- I asked for God to help me make the right decision- I have to make them- let me know what he wants- he can't make the decision for me- I asked that he take away some of our pain- give us some peace- give us strength to proceed with the decision to save and strengthen and heal our marriage.<BR>Do not ask for a reconciliation- your H free will is in the way for God to grant you that. Ask for the strength to fight for your husband...entirely different.<BR>I wish you the best- I hope you find what you seek with God- He knows you are seeking- he will reach into your heart now. Know God first and the rest will follow.

I can already see some of the good that has come out of this situation for me. I truely believe God is making me grow, or at least making me use this situation to grow. I've learned:<P>That I need God in my life, I had fallen away from him for a few years and now I'm back.<P>That real love is not about how you make me feel, real love is about loving the person for who they are, no matter what. It's not selfish.<P>Many, many things about myself that need to be fixed. That I will never be done growing and to never get to "comfy" with myself.<P>How much I really do care about him, my prayers used to say, God, you know I want him back, please if it's your choice bring him back. . .now they say God, please help him with what he's struggling with, help clear his mind from all his worries and make his choices clear to him (still followed with a small, but you know I want him to be with me!).<P>I've learned many, many things, I even find myself thanking God, not for the situation, but for the good things I already see. . .just wish I could see the end though, that's the hardest part.<P>------------------<BR>"Sometimes it takes a painful experience to make us change our ways." Proverbs 20:30

Mrs. O,<P>So what answers does the book offer?<P>I agree with Lor...<P>Even more than my h's betrayal, I have asked since I was little why God allowed me to be abused for ten years starting when I was 3.<P>It seems that since God can do ANYTHING, he could have prevented it (although the abuser also had free will as well as those who enabled it). And yet, if God is orchestrating every aspect of our lives, we sure don't see it...It seems that we are left more to pray for wisdom and strength to control the part we can - ourselves - and trust Him to bring good out of the rest.<P>And yes...about setting up other gods before Him. I knew I was doing that with my h, many times I thought it was wrong that he was my "everything". That god came crashing down!<P>

Hey Scizzo,<P>Well, I haven't had a chance to read much more in the past few days....but hopefully, I'll be able to fit some reading time into my weekend. My goal is to build a small, rock wall this weekend, so if it rains or if I can't get too motivated, the book will definately come out!!<P>So far it talks about the kinds of traumas people have happen to them, gives lots of examples, etc. and states that sometimes we just have to accept that God has a bigger picture that we can't see. There is also a chapter on the betrayal barrier, which is that when something horrible does happen to us, we can set up a barrier between us and God, and never fully trust Him again either. <P>You're right, He could have prevented what happened to you. Why didn't He.....we will probably never know. But as I keep reading, I'm starting to see that we will probably NEVER understand and that not everything bad is "sent" from God to test us. It draws parallels between us and Job, Joseph, Mary/Martha/Lazarus, etc. and all the people in Hebrews who it mentions NEVER saw their promises come true. WHY....esp. when the promises were from God?? Or why does it seem like God doesn't hear us? <P>Anyway, I'm still reading and if this interests you, look in your local library to see if they have it or can order it. <P>By the way, I'm not of the mindset that God can't override free will. I don't believe He does very often, but there are scriptures that allude to Him "changing people's hearts" or "hardening people's hearts" so I have to believe that He has the power to do this. I still don't know why He doesn't more often and I probably never will, but I think He can.<P>Anyway, it's like I Corinthians 13 says...."Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Dear Mrs.O:<P>Thank you for starting this thread. It ties in with things in my life this past week.<P>Our S is studying Exodus in religion class. He and I talked about the Israelites complaining about God not taking care of their needs for water and food. About not answering their prayers. We talked about God not answering our prayers. About having faith anyway, and about why He allows things to happen to innocents, why guilty people get away without punishment, why our cousin Freddy died when we made a St. Jude Novena. <P>We have had really good conversations. He finally said "Maybe God really did answer our prayers about Freddy. He died suddenly, he didn't stay sick, and he didn't suffer." <P>I think after school today with our S and his friend, we will stop in at the library and I'll look for that book.<P>My friend gave me two books written by Eli Wiesel - "Night" and "Somewhere A Master". I can't discuss "Night" with our son. It is too true and monstrous. The faith of a child in God is destroyed and burnt to ashes in his heart, for all eternity, when he lives through the horror of the Holocaust.<P>Our S is extremely emotional. He has rage toward people who harm others, commit mass murder, there is nothing lukewarm or indifferent about his reaction. But he really doesn't need to know the full extent of the atrocities man is capable of right now at his age.<P>The stories about the Hasidic rabbis, however, are coming into our dialogues. In particular, he asked me why God doesn't talk to people anymore like he used to talk to the Prophets. <P>That was dealt with a couple of times in "Somewhere". The essence is, that the question IS the answer. We just have to sit still and listen. God isn't talking to us the same way he did 4,000 years ago.<P>I'm so grateful that things happen as they do. That a friend was looking for his books by Eli Wiesel, that he gave me his extra copies, that these hundreds' year old stories about Hasidic rabbis touched on what troubles us today.<P>And then you write a post on this topic! And so many of us are thinking about the same thing. It's wonderful, isn't it. <P>Aloha,<P><BR>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited February 02, 2001).]

Great thread. Thanks, I needed this today.<P>I think the "our action/reaction" piece is big. I had a friend in high school who was a strong Christian, having problems, but not <I>doing</I> anything about it. She just kept saying, "God will take care of it." I admired her faith, but thought her to be a bit misguided. My question was, if you see a boulder tumbling down in your direction, would you stand there and wait for God to save you. My answer was NO! He gave me legs and a brain...I'd run like hell!!!!<P>So, I don't know why this bolder is headed toward me (why my marriage is falling apart) but I know I need to use my brain to fix the reasons my wife doesn't want to try anymore. Maybe she'll see the change, and it will give her hope. Maybe she won't see it, and someone else will get to benefit from my work, and her pain. The fact is, her pain has driven me to work hard on me. She doesn't see it, but I'm a better husband today than I was 2 months ago. I'm a better father. I'm a better person. Is this why God has allowed our pain? Maybe. We'll never know for sure. But it kinda makes sense. I've been an assh-le for too many years. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in myself. Over all I still believe that I'm a good guy. But some of the decisions I've made (selfish decisions) have been <B>WRONG</B>. Just the fact that I know that is huge! I've learned. I've grown. I'll fail again, but I'll learn more from it next time. And this, I believe, is God's plan.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."