Hi all,<BR>I am trying like crazy to meet my W's emotional needs, but she won't let me. Her walls are so far up that anytime I try to do something nice she trys to start a fight. It's like she's talking to someone else that is telling her to stay away. We were spending some time together, maybe not getting along the best that we ever had but at least we were together. <P>Now she doesn't want to spend any time at all since the OM left his wife and she went to see her lawyer.<P>How do I continue to try to meet her EN's when she is just pushing me away harder than anytime before? Should I just let her go and hope for the best?<P>Mike<BR>

Mike - this is one question I have struggled with also. The answer is you obviously can't meet many of them, like affection. But you have a very powerful one at your disposal - your kids. Be the best Dad you can be for your kids and for your self assurance, then this EN of your wife's is automatically met. Consult with her about matters pertaining to your kids to demonstrate your actions and to get the opportunity to meet other subtle ENs like honesty and respect, etc.<P>Take care of your house. Demonstrate you can rise to the occasion and do what needs to be done in a mature and competant way. Take care of financial matters and all the other "business" aspects of your family. <P>But as for the more intimate ENs, you're out of the loop, so don't try. Yes, let her go and concentrate on yourself, your kids, and NO LBs!!!<P>WAT

Hey Wat,<BR>Thanks for the reply...How are you doing anyway?<P>I am working to keep things together here. The father thing has never been a problem with me. As a matter of fact, if I wasn't such a good father she said it would have been harder for her to leave! Go figure. <P>I have always been the one to take care of the financial matters in our home. My wife is a financial disaster. So that is not a big deal either. <P>She is looking for a soul mate and it seems that she thinks that she has found him. How do you combat that?<P>As far as no LB's...I may have some problem with that because our ideas on custody of the kids are different. I have proposed one thing and she doesn't like it, but has yet to come up with another plan which is better. So she gets angry about that. But if she is so focussed on divorce...I need to take care of myself and my kids too. It's like I can't win either way...<P>Mike

Good post Mike...and good response Wat!<P>I'm going through the same thing. There's a wall up and I can't get over it. We had a talk last weekend, during which she got mad, saying that I've been asking her to try, to give a little. She said she is trying, but she doesn't have much to give. So she sees me rejecting what little she gives because it seems to her that it's not enough for me. She has a good point. So, I'm trying to do what Wat suggested. Work on me and be the best me I can be. I'm also concentrating on the fact that she hasn't left (sorry Mike, I know you're in a bit deeper than I am at this point). But the same holds true for you Mike. We can't deny that our marriages may end. We work like crazy on 'em, but if they do end, we need to be there for our kids, ourselves, and whatever/whoever is in our future. But keep loving her. You promised you would! You didn't say, "To have and to hold, unless you give up..." No, she's not meeting that commitment right now, but hold on to your commitment as long and as hard as you can. And take care of you.<P>Mike, I don't know if you're the religious type, but consider this. We tend to treat God like cr-p, but he still loves us. Agape love, the decision to love, not based on how we're treated or what we get. It's unconditional. It's simply the decision to love. That's marriage. It has to be. We change, we grow, we learn, we regress. If we don't promise to love our partner from the get-go with this kind of love, our marriages will fail (current of future)! But we can't love that way alone. We can't do it without God. So, if you're open to Him, get Him on your side! You may or may not believe in Him, but that doesn't change the fact that He's there and He loves us. I admit, right now I've had many days when I wonder…I can't seem to find Him anywhere. Why does He let all this happen? But I know I just need to trust Him and work at being the best me I can be. I may not see it right now, but He's going to take care of me, and my W and our girls. He will!<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Mike,<P>You are in this for the long haul...right?<P>I think the thing I keep sensing from your posts is that you expect results right away. It's not going to happen - she's deep in the fog and at the height of her affair. Don't be so impatient - this stuff takes time (as in MONTHS and maybe years)!!<P>You can't meet her needs if she doesn't want to let you. So stop trying - you are love busting if you are trying to force your attention on her and she doesn't want it.<P>Focus on your kids, and focus on you!! By spending your time improving yourself, and learning what faults you have, and fixing those faults...so that when she DOES come around MONTHS from now, you'll be ready to work with her. Your kids need you, take care of them - the bottom has dropped out of their world too. <P>And...if she never does come home, you'll be a better person and a better dad anyway. It's a win-win kind of thing. <P>Hang in there!

Hi BR,<BR>I am in this for the long haul...it is just so freakin frustrating to be a person that likes to see results and not see any. <P>I just get so discouraged. When she told me the OM wasn't going to leave his wife...there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Now I find out that she is probably sleeping with this guy and that he left his wife. And...my W is probably going to file for divorce.<P>All of that in 3 days...so I guess I'm a little down. It's hard to look down the road when you keep running into road blocks if ya know what I mean.<P>But having people like you to keep me focussed on the goal helps a lot. I just wish the future didn't look so bleak. I know it will take time, and I see all the positive outcomes from people who have been patient.<P>Then I read posts in the divorce forum and it gets depressing to see all these people that have been hurt like the rest of us and been patient, with no positive ooutcome.<BR>It sucks. <P>I am here for a while though because the alternative is to give up, and I'm not ready for that yet. I have a lot to learn about not LB ing, but I'm trying and trying to meet the EN's that I can. It isn't easy!<P>~Mike~

We're all in the same boat when it comes to trying to meet ENs. Very little opportunity to do so, because they shut us out. Part of the problem is that they obviously didn't like some aspects of the marriage, and they think that change is not possible (of course the fact that they did 180s isn't factored into the equation). One thing Steve has said is to focus on demonstrating change as opposed to meeting ENs.<P>And that can be as simple as alluding to the fact that you have learned so much about marriage and what makes it work. Steve's thoughts we're to throw that concept into a conversation every so often, and say it with wonderment in your voice, as though you've seen the light and are so amazed at what you didn't know before, but do now. Mentioning things you didn't do right before but know so much about now is good.<P>Of course, I'm just going by what Steve Harley says, and haven't put much of this into practice. But to me it makes sense, because when they are thinking with more sane minds, it should get them thinking about what they might be missing if they move on. After all, what they feel for these OPs now won't remain forever....they'll come back down to earth...and the OPs won't have the knowledge that we have from MB.<P>If she won't allow affection, you do whatever you can that isn't affection. Just demonstrate good qualities and improvements.<P>I've read your posts and you've had a rough week, but it will calm down. These unsettled phases always do.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Hey Rick and OOOO,<BR>Some ride! I'd rather be scuba diving down in the Cayman Islands!<P>You are right...I have lost her, and from everything she says, she's not coming back. But I know that things can change. It's just a matter of time I hope.<P>The problem is that this thing between them has been going on for some time now. I think that they have been friends for 3 years and I'm pretty sure that things have been escalating for over a year. So if this has been going on that long, they both must be pretty entrenched. How do you combat that?<P>Do these people that we once knew ever start thinking again with sane minds. In retrospect I don't know if my W ever thought about anything she did. It was always a fly by the seat of your pants thing. She never thought about actions and consequences. And obviously this affair is just another example of how she doesn't think! My gut reaction is that the OM will smarten iup long before she ever does.<P>I have thought about contacting his wife and seeing if she knows the whole truth about all of this. Also to let her know about this site. If I had known earlier in our upheaval, I might not have done some of the things that I did.<P>Thanks to all for your help...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>the probability of someone watching you...is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions

Hi,<P>I am trying to meet the EN of my W also. She has barriers up and has made it clear my A's may be too much to overcome. <P>It has only been about six weeks so I know everything is fresh. She has made it quite clear in the past couple days we need to be prepared if we split, but now she is staying for kids and told me to see if there is anything left in her heart for me.<P>I have been trying to be the best Dad I can and doing things around the house without being too pushy. I guess I will just try and maybe by some miracle she will take me back and be in love with me again.<P>Everyone tells me keep trying, so that is wht I am going to do.<P>Good Luck!

From the book... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A: Avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html" TARGET=_blank>angry outbursts</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgments</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3404_selfish.html" TARGET=_blank>selfish demands</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3403_annoy.html" TARGET=_blank>annoying behavior</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3405_dishonesty.html" TARGET=_blank>dishonesty</A> (i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!) at all costs. (page 75 of SAA)...and at the same time, <B>if</B> your spouse would let the you, you should try to meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> (page 77 of SAA) that is...<BR><OL TYPE=1><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html" TARGET=_blank>Affection</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3310_sex.html" TARGET=_blank>Sexual Fulfillment</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html" TARGET=_blank>Conversation</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3320_rec.html" TARGET=_blank>Recreational Companionship</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3325_hon.html" TARGET=_blank>Honesty and Openness</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3330_att.html" TARGET=_blank>An Attractive Spouse</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3335_fin.html" TARGET=_blank>Financial Support</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.html" TARGET=_blank>Domestic Support</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html" TARGET=_blank>Family Commitment</A><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_ad.html" TARGET=_blank>Admiration</A></OL><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and in that big quote...<BR>...the key word for you (as it was for me) is <B>if</B>...<BR>...<B>if</B> you W lets you...<P>Keep working on yourself... <P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Thanks to all who have replied,<P>I continue to be amazed at the mentality of the two WS's who can only see 2 feet in front of their noses. The deceit and the hurt that they have caused in the last 3 months continues to expand.<P>When the word selfish comes to mind I have two faces that I can attach to that word. <P>The OM wife called me last night and she is devastated. How can these two people look at themselves in the mirror and feel good about themselves? What about the children that are involved...5 total.<P>I continue to Plan A...sometimes not very good on the LB's but trying. I pointed the OM wife in the direction of this web site so that she can have some good info on what is going on. I hope she can get the same good advice that I have been getting.<P>These two bozos are so deep in the fog it isn't funny. Whether they will come out in time to save one or both of these marriages is hard to tell. <P>I wondered what would happen on Friday and low and behold something did. This tale is far from being over I guess...stay tunes for the next chapter...I'm sure it will have many more twists and turns before it is over!<P>Mike

Hi Everyone,<BR>I saw my wife this afternoon for the first time in 4 days. The hand that gripped my heart squeezed so hard that it hurt. She looked more beautiful than ever. I miss her with every part of my being.<P>I told her that she looked great and she said you do too. I also told her that I liked the way she was wearing her hair...she smiled. First time in a long time I saw aa smile.<P>I had dropped my daughter off at a birthday party and she was there. My son and I went to a friends house to wait and hang out. My wife hasn't seen the kids in 3 days and she said that she misses them. She wasnted to know if she could come over and hang out with the kids for a while tonight. I said I didn't know when we would be home. <P>She looked very sad. I said that we had an "indoor camping" trip planned for the night. THe kids and I are going to sleep in sleeping bags in front of the fireplace! She said it sounded like fun and then got sad again. <P>I think that she might have had aa little taste of what she is going to miss by living someplace else. She needs to feel the consequences of her decision. She has had it her own way since moving out! Now she is having some time to think. I hope that the woman I married begins to think about her family and the woman that has taken over her body lets the other one come through. <P>The woman I married would not be trying to break up two families. I don't really like her too much...I want the old one back.<P>Mike

Just wanted to say you are doing a good job. Great move on the "indoor camping" trip. I might have to borrow that one.<P>Keep coming up with ideas, and hang in there.

Hey Rick,<BR>I moved the coffee table out of the way and pitched my tent in the family room. The kids are sleeping in the tent. THey love it. We cooked hotdogs over the fire in the fireplace and than made smoas. THey are asleep right now. I plan to crawl in and go to sleep right off too. This has been a good day as far as the kids and I. I hope they relay all of the good things to their mother andI hope it makes her think about all the good times she is missing!<P>As you are well aware of...every little bit helps! WHen you are at war...use all of the resourses that you have!<P>Mike

Sounds like a good night. I just wanted to say one thing. Try not to get discouraged when you do great things and then there isn't a change in your wife. I'm sure you know that already, but the fantasy is so bizarre and addictive, that you have to be prepared. You can do all the nice things in the world, and it can still take lots of time for the affair to die a natural death. I'm living it right now.<P>So, don't want to interrupt a good time, but I know I've done lots of things that I figured would be eye openers for my wife, and nothing has really changed, but I have hope that it will at some point. So keep doing things, but be prepared for anything.<P>Your kids are lucky to have you as their dad. Someone has to remain sane for them, so keep it up. Imagine the fun they are having tonight. How nice for them!

Hi Rick,<BR>It's so hard to not get discouraged when you see the person that means the most in the world to you and you can't hold them or be close to them. I'm sure that you know what I'm feeling.<P>What is it that makes a sane person want to give up half of the time with their kids, ruin two families and basically estrange themselves from all who care for them. How can a person that has done that look at themself in the mirror and feel good about what they see.<P>God gave us a brain and a conscience so that we could hopefully make the right decisions. Is it that their conscience has been shut off? Is it that they don't have one anymore?<P>Do they ever realize what they have done or is the "Love" factor just so overpowering that they just don't care?<P>Yesterday my WS thought that I was going to go talk to the other man at his house. Her comment was "don't go over there...he has three kids...call him if you want to talk to him" I said why would I go over there. It would make you mad, and I don't want to do that. I also said "hmmmmm...3 kids...maybe YOU should think about that".<P>I guess they just don't get it...and...right now...I wonder if they ever will.<P>I feel terrible for his wife and 3 kids because my wife has had a hand in causing them pain. I feel bad for my 2 kids because the family they knew is no longer there right now, and may never be again, and I feel bad for my relationship with my wife. I love her more than anything, and who knows if that is enough to bring us back together. I also feel bad that she felt that she needed to go out and have an affair, rather than talk to me about our relationship.<P>I hope that someone out there has some success stories to share. THe long road ahead seems endless. I wish that there was some way to see into the future and know what the outcome will be. <P>Mike

Hi all,<BR>I'm debating whether to ask my WS to stay for dinner one night this week. Am I setting myself up for a big divorce argument by doing so. This is all she wants to talk about these days. <P>She does enjoy being with the kids and I would like the chance to fill her in on some of the things that I have learned about myself...if she will listen. I know that she will say that that is nice...it will help your next relationship!<P>THey just want to use everything that we try to do to validate their decision about the affair and leaving. This fog that they are in really is mind boggling. They ddon't care about anything but themselves. Truly the selfish side of the personality comes out.<BR>Mike

Good Morning...<BR>Well another day comes and another bit of heartache with it. My wife came in to the house this morning as usual to get the kids ready for school. She said that she wanted to talk to me as I was leaving for work. We stepped outside so the kids couldn't hear and she wanted to know what we were doing with the kids for the next two months. I said we already discussed that. <P>She said that I don't think that we should spend much time together anymore. I told her I missed her a lot. She said that she was madly in love with someone else, and wasn't in love with me any more. How many times have I heard this over the last 3 months.<P>She said that I am just being honest with you as I have been all along. I said that I would like to believe that, but some things just don't make sense. <P>Anyway the conversation came around to the devastation that both families are going through. I asked her how she felt about that. <BR>She said that she sees nothing wrong with what is going on. They are both in love and that is all that matters. I said how do you feel about his family? She said "do you think I have that much power over him that he can't make his own decisions?"<P>OMG... This is unbelievable...she said that she is doing the right thing by ending our marriage first before she begins anything with him! SHE ALREADY BEGAN SOMETHING WITH HIM!!! Hello!!! Wake up and smell the coffee.<P>Talk about dillusional. I have an appointment with Steve tomorrow...thank god. He at least can put things in perspective. This woman that I love is in self destruct mode...along with destruction of other peoples lives.<P>So the heart ache goes on and I think that I did a good job of not losing my cool...and just asking about her feelings and what she though. She brought it up, but once again the pain that I feel is like I just found out. To hear her say that she is in love with someone else hurts beyond anything that I could have ever imagined.<P>It doesn't look like the fog is going to clear anytime soon. You all will have to put up with my rantings some more!!! <P>Thanks in advance...<P>Mike<P>

I'm glad that you are talking with Steve tomorrow. If you have specific questions, make sure you write them down, because you'll otherwise get caught up in describing things, and listening to Steve, that you'll forget. But, he will help you alot. First call usually more getting on the same page, but he'll put the fantasy into perspective.<P>Your wife is heavily fogged, as most are at the start of the illusion. It is unbelievable as you've found out. Good job not losing your cool. Rant away on here...we all do, and thank goodness we have this outlet of people that understand, otherwise things would be different.<P>The fact that this affair isn't hidden is a good thing. It hurts to know, but it apparently destructs faster in most cases. No guarantees, but we have to play the odds and hope.<P>Your wife may plan on ending the marriage quickly to continue with him and satisfy her alien mind that nothing happened until that time. They manager to consider EA not an A. However, the OM may not be thinking the same thing...who knows. Maybe he isn't as ready to leave the family behine. Lets hope that is true. Just be Plan Aing in any way you can so when that day comes, you'll be in the best spot.<P>I saw you asking if this was familiar, in another post of yours (wanted to refresh on your earlier ones): "You can't change anything by reading a book"! "Everyone is different", "They're not me". I've heard them all, and so have most of us. More classic fog talk.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited February 05, 2001).]