Hi,<P>I have not posted in a few days. It has been tough for me the last two days. I will remind everyone I am the WS, and have been committed to trying to win back the love of my W.<P>I went for a third session with a counselor yesterday and it went good. It has been positive talking with him and he is showing me some ways to change and helping me right now when I really need it. I told him yesterday I was hoping my W would go to a counselor, but as of yet she hasn't, even though in time she says she will.<P>Thursday afternoon I called her at work and asked if she was up to going out to eat with the kids, and she said "sure." We still live together and sleep in same bed, so this going out to eat isn't a huge deal, but is always nice. She was getting one daughter ready to go by giving her a shower and I was playing on the computer with the other daughter. We were both upstaris in the loft area which is by one of the bathrooms. We were having a decent conversation about our days. She then told me she went to a counselor on Monday and that she felt good. I immediately saw her face seem to show some happiness. Then the bomb fell. She told me the counselor told her she is staying right now for the wrong reasons. (My W has said she is willing to try because she owes it to the kids, but if it was her alone she would be gone) Now, we have had conversation about this in the past and I felt fortuante that she is willing to try for whatever reason. She then told me "You need to change for yourself and for the kids." I told her I am going to change for her to, and she said "I may not want that." Maybe just hearing her say this, even though I know she has not made up her mind as to what she is going to do, hurt just because it was actually said. She saw that I was immediately upset and said "You knew that, I don't know what I want yet." Well, I was crushed and went to spend some alone time and I have to say I was really sad.<P>There was also conversation to the effect that she told me I should start planning on what I am going to do if this does not work out. She has told me she has some plans as to how she is going to handle it, and I should to. Maybe just hearing these words and actually having discussion about it hurts, even though we have both thought about it.<P>Before we went to bed last night I asked her, "If you are not staying for the kids, what are you staying for?" (I want her to stay so this was not said nasty or sarcastically) She said, "I still owe it to them to give it a try and see if I have any love left for you in my heart." I again told her that I am changing and she has seen some of that already even though it is early. I told her that today it seemed like reality set in that something I don't want to happen, may happen. She then said again "I don't know how I am going to feel so we will have to wait." <P>We have agreed to spend an afternoon together next week with no kids. It is a small step, but the first one since I told her about everything six weeks ago. Still no kissing or touching, but I told her if I have to wait a long time to hold her hand again, it will be worth the wait, and I will wait.<P>Everyday I tell her I love her and only her. She does not say it back, but I am going to continue to tell her unless she tells me not to. Everyday she is here I count it as a good day, and hope and pray that there is a spot in her heart that has my name on it yet.<P>I Hope everyone has a great weekend and good luck to everyone going through these times.

Just wanted to know that you are doing well. It still hasn't been that long for your wife, I know 6 wks seems like a long time but it is just a short time in the long road to recovery. I can't relate to your wife because as the BS, I was doing everything I could to hold my family together, my WH was torn/is still torn between his family & the OW. Your W may not know it or think it but she is very lucky that you are willing to try. I admire your efforts. Keep hanging in there.

opdam, you may already know this, but in case your feelings about yourself have obscured some reality (guilt can do that): Your wife's counselor is one of those counselor's who is DANGEROUS TO A MARRIAGE!!! I have seen too many people encouraged to leave a marriage and it sounds as if your wife's counselor has already made up her mind that yours is not worth saving.<P>Also, I beg to differ with the counselor. Perhaps this person would like to read some of the long term studies that show that divorce DOES permanently scar children ... even ADULT children. So, "for the children" is a perfectly valid reason to stay - and a compelling reason to continue TRYING.<P>Give her some time - your wife, that is, and continue in the way you are going. Even if she doesn't ASK you to be accountable to her for your whereabouts, etc., Tell her anyway. Even if you have to write it down for her. Be good to her and try NOT to talk about the relationship with her now. Acknowledge that she has a right to be uncertain at the moment, and simply SHOW her by your actions that you WANT the marriage.<P>The best chance you have at success is to be the best YOU that you can be. Good luck, and keep coming here and talking to us.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Teri,<P>Thanks for the information. I don't know what to make of the session my wife had with the counselor. I guess I am just happy she went to see someone. <P>I will keep trying to do what I am doing and that is all I can do right now. She assured me that she is going to make up her own mind on whatever decision she makes, and is looking alot to God right now. So, we have both said in the past that maybe God is working through our children. I hope that is right. <P>Have a great day.

Right now if asked why she is staying in the marriage, she doesn't want to say for you. She is hurt and uncertain she will come up with other reasons. Does it matter why she is there? Staying together for the kids can become staying together for each other. Be happy she is staying there, she could move or ask you to move. Show her you can be trusted to not hurt her ever again. Maybe if you do this you will feel better too.

It does sound like that counselor is not PRO-Marriage. But we can not be sure from that one sentence....maybe she was getting at a larger point. I would suspect your wife positioned herself as one trying to decide whether or not to stay in the marriage, rather than someone trying to work through the trauma of betrayal. <P>I also think it is fine to stay for the kids, as long as your goal is to have a functional loving relationship.<P>We are over two years in recovery and I love my H more (and believe me, I always loved my H) and have a better marriage than before the affair.<P>And on that night I discovered it, I can honestly say I would have not tried if it had not been for our kids. As much as I loved him, I really feel I could have ended it. Love had nothing to do with it. <P>Of course I did work hard at rebuilding. Maybe my most difficult task was to rebuild respect. Although I never told him I had lost respect for him, the things he DID that helped was be 100% accountable with his time without me asking, stayed out of bars or any social situation without me and seemed truly remorseful.<P>If you and your wife are both looking to God, why don't you find a Christian counselor?

Who is anyone to second guess a counseling session for which none of you were present? Is this Marriage Builders or Judgement Panel?

Dear New,<P>Good name. Stick around awhile and see how many people are divorced because of counselors who give spouses on either side of this infidelity stuff some horrible advice. Dr. Harley is one of a few very effective marriage counselors who speaks out about counselors who destroy marriages.<P>I stick with my initial opinion: Any counselor, regardless of the positioning that opdam's wife may have taken (unless she lied outrageously and told the counselor she was being abused), who says that a person staying for the children is staying for the wrong reasons is NOT pro marriage. Staying for ANY reason at all in a NON-abusive marriage is a step in the right direction as long as the other spouse wants the marriage and is willing to work as well.<P>I've been here going on three years and have seen many come and go - and one thing I've noted is that there are many counselors out there who actively give advice to break up a marriage that has more than a small chance of making it. The majority of marriage counselors have had little to no training in marriage and family counseling - and it is a field that requires more than an MSW or a psychology or a psychiatry degree to perform well in, and to do right by the clients in.<P>This IS Marriage Builders - which is why, when I see a post that contains a line like the one that opdam quoted from his wife's counselor, bells go off in my head. Staying for the children is not at all a bad thing to do. It is NEVER "the wrong thing" to do (unless, as I mentioned above, there is abuse involved).<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Of course no one can judge a session they were not part of.<P>I can tell you from reading here a long time, that some counselors seem to consider their clients individual happiness over what is best for a family unit.<P>Of course an individual has a right to determine their course in life, but when their are children involved, it is my personal opinion, that their welfare should be respected.<P>And I believe I would have kicked my H straight to the curb, after 16 years of what I considered a very good marriage, if I did not kids. And he didn't even have a full blown affair.<P>I was that hurt and that angry and quite honestly I didn't think I could ever think he was a man of honor and integrity again in my lifetime.<P>And two years later, I am glad it was just my kids that stopped me.<P>Recovery was hard. To be honest, it would have been easier to die than to live through the pain and the grief of losing the man and the marriage I thought I had.<P>But after the whole story finally unfolded and there were no more lies, nothing more to hide, which took about 8 weeks, I saw my H step up and make some changes. He has not faltered yet, 2 years later. I believe he is a better man and we have a better marriage.<P>I still grieve for the loss, but I think I have gained more and I am certain he has.<P>I never went to a counselor and no one in my real life knew. I armed myself with books, prayed and prayed and just got through each day one at a time. We live in a small town and there was no easy way to get to a counselor, otherwise I may have gone. <P>So maybe it is unfair to question this counselor's motives, but I so remember those painful early days, and I am so glad no questioned my determination to make it work for the kids. It may have weakened my resolve and I would not have what I have now.

There was a post a long time ago worth looking at...<P>===><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/002712.html" TARGET=_blank>What Planet are my Counselors from?</A>.<P>PS: If you can't see the humor in it (respectfully... it is hard to do sometimes when your so raw and hurt)...<BR>...hold back at looking at my reply at the bottom of page 2.<P> <P>Jim

I am kind of feeling like your wife right now. I have said a million times that I will never end this marriage. Right now I am staying for the sake of my kids and because I love him. My problem is I just don't respect him anymore. Sometimes, on days like today, I feel like "what is the point". Life would be easier emotionally. Not physically or financially, I know. Although I have told my H many times I will not leave, he doesn't seem to believe it. He said today that I was ruining his life and I said that he should pack his bags then and leave. He didn't and wouldn't. Not strong enough to do that. I am a new poster here and don't know if this is the way I should be posting my first thoughts. I am considering attending a MB weekend here locally. Have you all been to one or are you just following his materials? You all seem to know it so well and I've read the basic explanations on the website, but man am I scared. It all seems so hard to accomplish and in your face. <P><p>[This message has been edited by twinzmom (edited February 04, 2001).]

Dear Opdam, Hello, I have never posted anywhere before, but I had the affair. I like you chose to tell my spouse. I told him the tuesday before christmas and my life will be forever changed. Like you I have been trying to make it right. How though can we? Only God can use our hands and hearts to make it right. I had a wonderful cleansing experience yesterday at a churh I was visiting. It is hard to attend my home church without my husband because I don't want to answer ?'s of where he is but for my sake my walk with the Lord must continue(and for my two precious girls 3 and 5)<BR> Something that may help you is to tell;tell your story to close friends if they are your friends and are Christians,and search there own sinful heart they will help you. Even if they don't, God will if you come to Him. Are you a christian has their ever been a time when you asked Him to forgive your sins through Jesus Christ's blood?If not, that must come first before your marriage could ever heal. If you are a christian you must ask God the Father to forgive you. He forgave David for commiting adultry. God is bigger than your sin and bigger than an unforgiving heart. Yesterday at the church I visited I was accepted for me not unaccepted for my past sin. Please read Matthew8:1-4 these words preached through the pastor these few words have changed my life. The lepper knew he needed cleansed (you know that you need cleansed) the lepper came before Jesus and had faith if God was willing He would cleanse Him and guess what that is what Jesus has come to this earth to do to heal the sick you are sick because of your sin we all sin is there a sin that is too big for Jesus to forgive to? to heal? He said to the lepper (an unclean man a sinner an outcast in society) "I am willing ,be clean." Immediately he was cured IMMEDIATELY!!!!!! <BR> If you were like me, you already asked for forgiveness, were cleansed and forgiven, but did not accept that gift.<BR> Ther once was a mom and a 5 who collected tea cups and her 5 yr old son was playing ball in the house and broke her favorite tea cup. The little boy was distrought because he loved his mommy so much and did not want to disappoint her. He told his mommy and his mother said opdam it is okay I forgive you now let me help you pick up the pieces. So together they swept up the shattered pieces and dumped them in the trash. About an hour later, the little boy got into the trash and picked up the broken pieces, took them to his mom and said Mommy, I broke your teacup I am so sorry. And Mommy said Opdam, I already forgave you, now put those shattered pieces of your sin and mistake back in the trash and let's go on. Ask forgiveness from Him and give Him your sin, give Him your marriage, give Him your Life. Only He can pick up the pieces and use your hands and heart to heal. A woman in church yesterday told me, "you will never be able to do it without Him, no way."<BR> I am not saying you will stay together, there are consequences for our sins, but God can change your heart and your wife's heart. I am in the same situation as you and it is hard to go on knowing I caused this and that I may have destroyed my family forever, but I do have the Lord my savior to get me through this and I would not want it any other way. You will be in my prayers. <P>