blindsided,<P>As far as I know, one does not have to believe in any particular set of principles, Harley or otherwise, in order to post here. If I could find a board specifically aimed at BS's of WS suffering from mental illness, I would probably be there. At least most (but not all) people here are pro-marriage. The posts at most divorce support boards tends to be of the "you are better off without him" variety. <P>Mitzi,<P>Good luck with obtaining more steady child support. I guess the difference in housing costs would account for the fact that you are managing, albeit struggling. I read in the paper that in order to afford the average rental here, a parent earning minimum wage would have to work something like 140 hours a week - obviously not very feasible. <P>

Nellie - First,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There were a number of comments in your post that I consider judgemental<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Point taken, accepted and apology offered. I wrote some of that out of emotion at the perceived insult.<P>Next, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but is there objective evidence...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have always thought it was nearly impossible to have "objective" measurement of anything to do with emotions, feelings or behavior. I've seen those things as "subjective".<P>As far as your being cynical, I'm one of the most cynical people around, but I'm less so on this subject. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>just because it worked for you doesn't mean it would work for anyone else<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Did you read the next-to-last paragraph in my post? I basically stated the same thing. All of our situations are unique in one or many ways. Plans A/B, either one or both, may work for someone or not work. In my case, Plan B would have just ended the marriage, I knew that and decided to pitch that idea. Just because I knew it wouldn't work for me doesn't make it true that it won't work for someone else.<P>For every Plan A failure, there is a success(lostva & samantha for examples..ask Lori if she feels "A" made her a better person). There have been Plan B successes as well. There have also been cases where after Plan A, the marriage still ended, but one or both parties felt that Plan A allowed them to end the marriage peacefully and as friends.<P>You may choose not to listen to me again, but I agree that in your situation, the Harley plans or even "Plan B from outer space" wouldn't change things. Sometimes that's the case. That's life.<P>My W exhibited some of the same behaviors as your H. If I had followed your advice, I would be divorced now. Instead, we(W and I) are both happier and have very realistic chances to save this marriage and be a better union than before.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Apparently any opinions that are not in keeping with the party line are not welcome here<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Come on, Nellie...I didn't try to tell you that you were "fooling yourself". I am just refuting your implication that I am fooling myself. You know as well as I, that there is room for all here.<P>--DeWayne--

Nellie,<P>Yes, housing costs have a lot to do with it. But I'm not managing. Bills get let go, utilities get turned off occassionally, the kids could use new shoes, they only get to play sports if someone else pays for it...I just cope. I can't change things right now, so I cope. I spent many sleeplessness nights wondering how I was going to pay for this or that, lost some hair from stress, cried a lot...all the things that I should have. But it didn't get me anywhere. I had to decide to NOT worry so much. I spent so much time worrying that I was unhappy and that was affecting my kids. Now, if it gets paid for, fine. If it doesn't, I'll pay it later. <P>I know you can make your life more than what you think it is now!<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi <P>P.S. Hey DeWayne!! <p>[This message has been edited by Mitzi (edited February 07, 2001).]

I mostly agree with Nellie's comments about Plan A. One of the good things that comes from this experience is we betrayed tend to become highly introspective and think through mistakes we have made. As a rule, my guess is that people frequenting this site probably take TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY for their spouse's infidelity instead of the other way around. I implemented major changes, my husband did literally zero. I waited for him a long time, in major part because I felt bad/guilty for some of the things I had done during the marriage.<P>I don't have conceptual problems with learning from our mistakes and learning how to eliminate lovebusters. That's positive. But I don't think it's constructive AT ALL to be in Plan A for more than a few months. It is not natural or normal behavior to accept ongoing disrespect from one's spouse. In time, it destroys your own self-esteem. I view my excessive time in Plan A as a big mistake since it got in the way of rebuilding a separate life for myself.<P>The Harley's aside, there are really only two major ways to deal with infidelity. There's the "be nice through it" approach, basically Plan A, and also advocated by Smalley and Conway and many of the Christian writers. The other approach it the tough love/ move on with your own life view, which is Plan B, Last Resort in Divorce Busting, and also advocated by Dobson. The only reason Harley is unique is because he advocates doing Plan A first, but even he says to end it at separation or after a few months. Basically, Harley advocates Plan B for enduring affairs (my interpretation) and says wait there two years. Virtually all the authors, Harley included, say that the betrayed's behavior is unlikely to have any effect until the affair is over. As near as I can tell, no one suggests that the betrayed can do much to end an affair nor "win back" their spouse. Their recommendations are based moreso on finding an effective way to live successfully and minimize further damage while waiting out the affair for a future opportunity to work on the marriage.<P>One other point while I'm on my soapbox. I think that Harley and some of the others (like Tally and Pittman), have dramatically overstated the odds of restoring the marriage through these, or any, techniques. Based on personal observation from this site and others, my own experiences, and my real world observations, I think the odds of successful reconciliation two years post affair are at best 50%. I know that hope is an important element to motivate people to stick with a plan, but I also think everyone needs to set a strict timeline for moving on that's based on realistic outcomes.<P>I'm not a believer that mental illness plays much of a role here, although there are always some cases. To me, it's more likely these waywards are acting upon entrenched patterns of behavior that probably existed during the marriages, but may not have been so apparent under a different set of circumstances. For example, my husband is almost unbelievably indecisive now. I didn't notice this in the marriage because I made almost all the decisions and he gave me tacit agreement (although I now know he didn't always agree, he kept that to himself even when directly asked). On his own, the indecisiveness is clear to everyone. I don't think it's a sign of depression, but rather part of who he is.<P>At this stage, I am an advocate of the MB philosophy, but not the aggressive interpretation of it in regard to Plan A. I think far too many of us have let this aspect run too long, which is not really what the Harley's advocate.

Distressed - Thanks for the impassionate, thoughtful response. I have to agree with your point of people doing Plan A too long. It happens a lot.<P>One reason that some BS's get so cynical and negative is that they mis-read the purposes of the various plans by various counselors. The problem is that, as you said, no one can stop their spouse's affair, nor can they "win back" their spouse.<P>Over a year ago, DuncanMac gave me some advice that put everything into perspective. As far as the "truth" was concerned, he said it didn't matter a whit whether or not something was real or true, the important thing is what the spouse's "perception" is. This was advice that really helped me to get off my high-horse of trying to show her that "X was not the case" as Nellie described above.<P>I think you are right about the possibly "high" success rates quoted. Some of the professionals quote numbers and then qualify them, admitting that real, solid numbers are almost impossible to come by.<P>Another point is that if you try to use this board to make estimates, one must remember that the "success" story people tend to quietly disappear. Many times, it's the disgruntled, or those who didn't properly prepare themselves for the negative outcome who tend to stick around.<P>People are so different that there is no "one" fix for marital infidelity. In many cases there is a pattern, but there are several "patterns". It's just like treating a physiological disease. Every disorder is not treated with penicillin. The cure has to fit the disease.<P>Anyway, great post....<P>--DeWayne--

I was thinking about the 2 year WS turnaround, and my H was within weeks of that. But waiting 2 years is really tough. I think in some ways, Plan A & B just give the BS some objectives to work with while the affair runs its course. I know that I inwardly set a timer for my H to truly come back--18 months from our first separation. He didn't make it in time...but wanted the marriage shortly *after* that, when I had begun the divorce proceedings. <P>I still don't quite know what to make of that, except that now, a year later, I know he was sincere and I'm glad I gave us another chance.<P>At times I think my time in Plan A did improve me, it made me more aware of my own behaviors and that I had developed some that weren't compatible with being a good wife.<P>I think ultimately what is important is that it takes time to heal from betrayal and we need to heal whether we are in our marriage or not. Plan A/B keeps the option of the marriage open, but also allows--usually--some healing or at least introspection to begin.<P>At the end of 2 years, many of the betrayed spouses are ready for our lives to move on--with or without WS. I truly think I would have been ok without my H, one of the reasons that made it a tough choice to try again. But at that point, I had changed as much as I'm likely to, he had to make his own changes...it never would have worked if *he* had stayed as he was during his fog/limbo/fence-sitting. And in my H's case the sure signals were that he began going to the counselor on his own, began taking his anti-deps, stayed out of bars, and really spent intentional good time with our kids.<P>Nellie & Distressed, your H's didn't or haven't (I'm such an optimist) come to that point. You've done what you can, if you don't have regrets or if there is nothing left to try...there comes a time to move on. <P>Sometimes in the rockiness of recovery, I forget what a blessing it is to have received the outcome (my marriage) I wished for so long.

Heartpain,<P>I am glad that Plan A worked for you. I know it has worked for others, but, like Distressed, I think the success rate is vastly overstated. It seems to me that for every Plan A success, there are at least 10 times that many failures - and that doesn't count all those people who don't bother with Plan A and go right to Plan D upon discovery. Would you feel any differently about Plan A if not only had it not worked, not even to the extent of being able to divorce "peacefully," but if after two years in those rare but essential discussions about kids' issues, etc., your spouse continued to tell you how stupid you were, that you didn't have your kids' interests at heart, etc., etc.? (Only by email, BTW - he is much more circumspect in person). <P>I realize that perception is everything, but it is difficult when the "A is not the case" that I was referring to was not a matter of opinion, but rather of demonstrable fact. <P>Mitzi,<P>I guess "managing" was the wrong word. I have managed to cope before when finances were difficult, but this time things just keep getting worse and worse.<P>Distressed,<P>I think you are entirely correct about the success rate being overstated. <P>Indecisiveness is, I have read, a common symptom of depression, though. I do think my H is clinically depressed, and possibly suffering from BPD. <P>Sweetpea,<P>I should clarify that my H is paying the court-mandated amount of child support - it is just far less than he would have to pay if he were working at a job in his field, or even probably at a job not in his field.<P>Moving closer to family is not really an option, since, except for my kids, I have almost no family except my sister, and she doesn't live in this country. <P>It is interesting that one of my H's complaints after he moved out was that I "never let him do what he wanted." For years, nearly every time I sought his opinion he would say, "I don't know what we should do." His first wife left him supposedly because he was not assertive enough. Apparently he does seek women who will make decisions for him. Interestingly, someone told me the other day that I was too willing to go along with what he wanted, and that may have been true - on those rare occasions that he did make a decision, I tended to go along with it. <P>It is difficult or impossible to call him at the OW's house. The one time I called to speak to him, she hung up on me.

Hi Lor:<P>Great to hear from you. I lurk occasionally and I’m glad to hear you’re doing well.<P>I had an interesting conversation with someone last night (actually one of my dates) on a related topic. He said to me that what I had done obviously didn’t work so it wasn’t the right approach. I thought about this a bit. Unfortunately, you can’t try something else in parallel to see if the results would be different, so how can you know whether something else would work better?<P>In the end, I think most betrayed decide how to handle ongoing marital infidelity based on a combination of a few factors: 1) how good we perceived the marriage to be before the infidelity (i.e. is there anything worth saving), 2) whether there are children involved, 3) our need to feel some degree of control over our lives, 4) our view of whether our spouse’s behavior appears completely out of character (aka the fog), 5) our view of our own contribution to the situation (guilt about our behaviors during the marriage), 6) values about commitment and forgiveness, and very importantly, 7) fears about the alternatives (financial implications, the work of being a single parent, dating again, being alone for life, being attractive enough, etc. ). It is my opinion that the primary driver in the betrayed’s decision making has an emotional basis. MOST react immediately in anger and choose to end the marriages. SOME get a grip of their own behaviors once the shock has settled and try to follow plans like Harley’s and others for up to a year’s time. But very FEW continue to actively work the situation after more than a year of ongoing, unrepented infidelity. Some of those work out (Lor’s case, for example), but most do not. In the end, I don’t think much logic is ordinarily used to approach the task, but rather how we feel about the situation as an aggregate.<P>Ultimately, we do what we feel comfortable doing. Very few of us are capable of implementing and sticking with a plan that conflicts with how we feel about the situation. My conclusion from this – I don’t think it’s an accident that most of the people dealing with long-term infidelity for a year or more are still doing some variation of Plan A. Those that were able to implement Plan B usually move on and become comfortable with the idea of divorce because Plan B forces confrontation with fears about the alternatives to the marriage. Once that fear turns around into seeing the new opportunities, the path towards divorce accelerates.<P>I really do love the Harleys because they provide hope and a plan during the darkest days of this trauma. I remember walking around the grocery store in tears, barely able to function at work, and hiding myself away from friends. I didn’t know what to do about anything – should I let my husband take furniture from the house, should I be nice, should I be mean, who should I tell, should we do family things, nothing was clear. I couldn’t concentrate on a movie, or read anything besides relationship books, or enjoy things. At that stage, their help is invaluable. But as time marches on, it’s too easy to get caught up in the righteousness of all of it, to say “if I can manage myself to wait out the affair” for years on end and to get lost in the unwavering goal of saving the marriage, really at all cost. At some point, you have to ask “is it worth it” and “what am I getting in return”. People that are capable of doing Plan A during infidelity for long durations are extraordinary, selfless individuals that are capable of having excellent relationships. They’re committed, loving, and focused people. These traits become obvious to mature people they meet in the dating scene. As I’m experiencing now, THERE ARE GOOD ALTERNATIVES.<P>Can you tell it’s slow at work today : ).<BR>

Nellie - To answer your question, Plan A actually gave me the peace and strength to <I>three</I> times, offer in very good faith, to walk away and give my W her freedom. I felt good about myself and more understanding of her position. In my case, this was very simply W's past history + mutually neglected marriage = affair. There was no abuse, no severe mental illness, etc.<P>In your situation as in many others, the illness overrides any good you try to do. You have hung on much, much longer than I would have in your place. Plan A worked for me because there was mostly "fog".<P>As some others have said, no matter what else, you need to protect yourself and the children. I am always an advocate of that action no matter what plan or non-plan you are in.<P>Coincidently, one of my W's major complaints was "we never do anything or go anywhere and it's your fault". Well, I spent the better part of 10 years suggesting recreation or entertainment and got responses like: "I can't be bothered.....I don't feel like it....I need to do other things...". There was no way for me to fight that perception except to challenge it completely one time and then let it go. Eventually the fog lifted. I'm not saying we are out of the woods, but the chances are much better than they have been anytime over the last 3 years.<P>Anyway, I want to bury the hatchet with you...If you want, I could bury it in H's head... <P>Love and hugs...<P>--DeWayne--

Lor,<P>I do wonder if it was your starting the divorce proceedings that prompted your H's turn around - did Plan A really have much to do with it? Obviously you can never know for sure, since you can't set up a controlled experiment to test this hypothesis.<P>It would be bad enough if Plan A simply had not worked. One of the aspects of this that is really bothering me is that my H has become increasingly hostile to me, increasingly distant from and impatient with the kids, and more and more seeming to live in an alternate reality, as time goes on.

Heartpain,<P>Sounds like a good idea

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>It would be bad enough if Plan A simply had not worked. One of the aspects of this that is really bothering me is that my H has become increasingly hostile to me, increasingly distant from and impatient with the kids, and more and more seeming to live in an alternate reality, as time goes on. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So I guess everything would have been better if you had just been a total b!tch to him the entire time?<P>If you had been able to Òbe niceÓ (Plan A) while he is/was being a jerk, donÕt you think you would have had to learn <B>something</B>?<P>Perhaps he is just Òpushing your buttonsÓ because he knows youÕll react to it.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Nellie,<BR>I too am faced with the same situation that you are; the only difference is that my H<BR>has come home, supposedly to work on the marriage (after 4 months of "needing space,") but: none of my EN's are being addressed because of his "problem"...He can't do this or that because he has a "Problem"...etc.. (The mental illness has been diagnosed and he is in treatment)..I'm feeling like he is using his "problem" as another escape route..just as he used work, EA, etc..I'm wondering myself if this is ever going to end, and what kind of love I'm going to have left when he does "wake up". <P>Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. Keep your chin up!!<BR>Jessica

Chris,<P>I don't understand what you are getting at. I have consistently not risen to his bait. I have responded calmly even when he repeatedly called me stupid. It has occurred to me that he is elevating his level of nastiness in an attempt to get me to respond negatively so that he can use that to justify his actions.<P>Yes, I think I might have been better off to have acted like a b****. Right after he left, after I talked to a counselor, my H asked me about it, and I told him that I was feeling slightly less depressed and more angry. He seemed pleased and relieved to hear that. I think he does want me to be furious with him. I think he might be better able to deal with that. I think he thinks I should be angry with him, that he deserves for me to be angry with him, and I think it might relieve his guilt a bit if I were.<P>The day he announced he wanted a divorce, he promised not to leave without telling me in advance. The next evening, as I was preparing dinner, he called and said he wasn't coming home. He tried to convince the counselor that that phone call constituted advance notice, but she didn't buy it, and I doubt if he believed it himself. He then said that maybe he was just a jerk - a statement that is rather hard to argue with. As this goes on longer and longer, I am becoming more and more convinced that he does want me to treat him as badly as he feels he deserves to be treated. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited February 08, 2001).]

Jessica,<P>Thank you for your support. I think it is characteristic of people suffering from depression to be incapable of even considering the impact of what they do or anyone but themselves.

Hi Nellie,<P>Wow, this is what I am going through. Very similar even down to the verbatim excuses. Like 'I love you but not in-love with you', 'need time to be alone', 'when I am with her I want to be with you and when I am with you I want to be with her...', etc. <P>The constant roller coaster ride of emotions, leaving, asking to come back, giving the anger & guilt to the BS, not being able to make a decision that sticks is all too familar. My H is depressed, he can not make a commitment or concrete decision that 'he' can enforce. His mind and heart are going in 2 different directions. Even my H said he would deliberately try to get me angry so he would have an 'excuse' to leave. <P>When I realized that, then I began to understand what I was dealing with. For some reason I found strength not to give him a reason to be angry with me. You know what?<BR>It upset him (at the beginning) and then he began to appreciate it. Mine is not in the stage of being in love with me yet. I have told him that I do not want him back as long as the OW is in his life. He says he is working on the courage to tell her that they are through but that it is still difficult for him. <P>Though I am by nature an impatient person, I have developed (out of neccessity), the quality of being patient (I am not good at it but getting better). It is paying off. At minimum for me and maybe even for my H. <P>I have kept myself busy with other things (like doing things for myself, my child and others), this keeps my mind active and have less time to wallow in pity. Please understand that this type of thinking does take time to develop. <P>When dealing with a depressed person, often then would prefer to do harm to themselves instead of helping themselves. My H previously said that maybe he should stay with the OW, since she is worse for him and he doesn't deserve to have a good life. What thinking!??!?! <P>Low self-esteem is driving him there. I told him that I know that for now, I am better than both of them and if I were him I would rather work with someone who can help me not drag me further into depression. He couldn't see that at first, but after spending vacation time with the 'psycopath - dual personality OW', he started to see it. That was where my patience was tested, but it seems that was the only way he could understand. Seeing the OW turn worse than himself and him knowing he was better than her. <P>Where this will take my H? It is too soon to tell, but in the meantime, I am ok with this. Is my marriage worth saving? Also not sure, but also not ready to throw in the towel. There are too many of you out there that have been in these scenarios longer than I have. Reading those comments help me focus. <P>Forgive my babbling. Dealing with a depressed person makes this whole thing more complex. My H is seeing a therapist/counselor who is good, but the bottom line is the fix to his problem is up to him. <P>"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". <P>So until the H is ready to come back, work on feeling better about himself, be a contributing/productive family member, we will just have to treat him as if he is very sick (which he is). Be patient, but firm, caring but not spoiling and most of all show the love that they really need. <P>Didn't mean to ramble on so much. Must be that I needed this more than I thought. <P>Thanks for the space to share my thoughts. <P>Mahalo<P>PS. Sure would like some ideas on how to give the H courage?!?!?!? Any comments from reformed WS or WS's in recovery or any book suggestions for those of us in this category?<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited February 08, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited February 08, 2001).]

Orchid,<P>Unfortuately, my H finds reason to be angry at me no matter what I do or don't do. It has been two years and it gets worse and worse. Even his lawyer obviously thought he was way off base when he made appointments for medical and educational evaluations for the kids without letting me know and wanted me to be completed uninvolved. Now he is demanding free access to the house of which I have legal possession. I think it is beyond depression and into complete disconnection from reality.

Yes, Nellie, it is definitely a disassociation from reality. Personally, I call it evil.<P>When I read your posts it is painfully clear that your H. shares a common denominator trait with many other people: He is destructive. <P>You can analyze it all you wish but it comes down to a simple fact that he is out to destroy YOU. My H. is the same -- as are Willbok's and Mental's. Don't expect the others here on this board to understand what you're going through, Nellie. Just give up on it. They will never understand the sort of person you are dealing with. Only those of us who have lived with a demon such as this can fully grasp the extent of damage they inflict, the scapegoating, the mindgames, the extreme, pathological self centeredness. <P>I, too, have become very negative over the past two years since my H. walked out on me and our three children after 15 yrs. of marriage. I've mentioned this to you before and I'll say it again at the risk of offending you: Only God has gotten me through this nightmare. <P>Nellie, after two horrendous years, I have finally come to accept that maybe, just maybe, this is not what God wants for me. If it means living the rest of my life without a man, so be it. I realize, too, that "mental illness" is just a copout sometimes for an individual who just plain lacks character and conscience. I don't need that in my life.

MovingOn,<P>I agree that it is not possible to fully comprehend this situation unless you have lived through it or something similar, and, fortunately for our society, most WS are not quite so extreme. I do believe that my H used to have a conscience, and I do think that this is mental illness. I also think he is terrified of what would happen if he doesn't go along with the OW - not only is he terrified of being alone, but even more so he is terrified of having no source of financial support.

i was the OW of an WS who was diagnosed as manic-depressive. <P>i can tell you now in retrospect with a better idea of what that means that his wife who has consistently taken him back and tried to make things better has destroyed her own self-esteem.<P>she has also set a bad example for her daughters.<P>i agree, this is a rare case, but it wasn't until i had some experience with this sort of person that i understood how abusive that sort of relationship can be.<P>i am free of it. but she is still in it and though i know he loves her, he cannot change and is still betraying her and hurting her. <P>she has done nothing wrong. she has been strong and been clear about her expectations and though they don't sleep together, she does love him.<P>anyway, i would have to agree with you on this. plan a only works on people with a conscious. and that does not include everyone.<P>much love<BR>anthea