<BR>It will be four weeks tomorrow since I asked H if he could make a regular commitment to the girls and I have heard nothing. It is almost three months since he last saw them. I wonder what he does to put them out of his head? Does he work all the time or is his ‘love’ for this woman so all consuming that he has no space in his heart and his head to remember his children. <P>I have picked up a book called ‘Private Lies’ by Frank Pittman. In it he says that people in affairs who fall ‘in love’ go temporarily insane. That they exclude everyone else from their lives - friends, family and sometimes even children. He says that children who have a parent who behaves like this have two choices. Go crazy themselves or forget about that parent. I think my two are doing the latter. But it is very hard for them and youngest misses her Dad terribly. I don’t know what else I can do to bring them together. They want nothing to do with OW and he insists that they must integrate her into their lives. He doesn’t see their objections because he doesn’t see that she has done anything wrong. From their perspective, she has no respect for them or their feelings. She deliberately pursued the affair knowing that it would cause them pain. Why should they now play happy families with the woman who has devastated their lives? H seems to think that they are the ones who are acting unreasonably, behaving selfishly and are therefore not worthy of his attention or time. I am at an impasse.<P>I do not think H wants to see them regularly. He wants, as he demonstrated before, for contact to be at his pleasure. He kept them dangling on a string like a couple of string puppets, dancing to his tune, then tossing them back into the corner to wait for the next time he wanted to play. I think the only thing that made him visit was an attempt to relieve a bit of the guilt when it crept up on him. Hence the sporadic contact. <P>Do you think I should contact him now and ask him what his decision is? I hate having to wait for bad news. But he is so volatile with me that I dread his reaction. He may see it as me pushing for a decision and turn nasty. <P>Give me some good advice on this one.<P><BR>Hope<BR>

Hope, unfortunately Frank Pittman is right. I was a WS and during the time of my A I was totally out of my mind. I thought of OM to the point where everyone and everything else was totally excluded. I was beyond selfish.<P>At the moment, your H is functioning with half a brain - and any attempts on your part to ask for a decision might well be met with the response you describe. He is in the fog big time.<P>I'm sorry for your girls - they can't possibly understand what's wrong with their Dad and I know they're hurting, as are you.<P>I think you'll get some good answers here as there are a lot of very wise people on this board. Hang in there. {{{{BIG HUG}}}}<P>

Hope,<P>Susie's right... big fog... <BR>Love those girls like there is no tomorrow!<P>-------------------------------------------<P>Susie...<P>I'm am impressed that you can honestly come out and say this...<BR>...<B>really</B> impressed!<P>You have my thoughts and prayers too.<P> <P>Jim<BR>

Susie,<P>Thank you so much for reminding me that I should not get in touch with him to ask for a decision. Coming from someone who has been there your insight is particularly valued. I have a question for you. How do you remember the fog? Was it all enveloping and did you ever have moments when you could see what was happening to you? My H seems to think his behavior is completely normal.<P>NSR,<P>I agree with your comment about Susie. I am also very impressed. Susie is an exceptional lady.<P><BR>Hope

Hope, the fog was blinding. I was totally consumed with OM and behaved like a crazy person. There were days that even I wasn't sure who I was anymore.<P>In my rare moments of clarity, I would feel terrible about what I was doing - so I would get angry. And the obvious target? My poor H, who was trying to do everything to make me happy. I treated him horribly and it sickens me to think of it now.<P>Many thanks to you and NSR for the compliment.

Susie,<P>Please don't thank me for the compliment. I only give them to those who so clearly deserve them. I hope that you are truly happy with your H today. <P>I hope that my H will one day come out of the fog and see how much he has given up for so very, very little. But while he is in thrall to this woman there is very little chance of ever seeing the children again. <P>He has not seen any of his friends since last May. Has never told anyone at work, they think he lives at home. And his mother only knows at my insistence because I didn't think it was right to expect the children to lie in order to cover up what he had done. <P>He said the last time we spoke about a month ago, that he saw himself ending up a sad lonely old man. To which I replied, if you rebuild your relationship with the children they will always be there for you. <P>He is already a sad lonely old man I think. He has no friends, he lives a lie at work, and has only minimal contact with his mother and still less with me and of course none with his children. Those girls were the most important thing in his life until he met her. Now he dismisses their existence and his responsibilities by saying that they don't need him anymore. <P>Strangely enough I think his prophecy may be coming true. I spoke to his mother tonight who says he doesn't look happy to her and he looks older than her SIL who is 62 (he is 44). MIL keeps saying that he will regret it one day. She is frightened I will meet someone else and then he will have left it too late. <P>Anyway I guess I will just sit and wait it out. It is going to be a long wait. BTW, he has done nothing towards the divorce yet. He wanted me to divorce him but I said you want it, you go do the work for it. That was about two months ago - maybe he is hoping that I will just disappear. <P>Thanks again for reading all this,<P>Hope<P>

Hope, when your H comes out of the fog he'll probably have the reaction that I did . . . "What have I DONE????" I never realized the pain I was causing my H, even though at the time he knew nothing about the A - just knew that something was wrong.<P>Believe me, he'll regret hurting your girls. Hopefully it won't be too late before he comes to his senses. Right now, the A is all-consuming and he thinks he's madly in love, but the fact is that it is a FANTASY, an escape from daily life . . . and nothing more.<P>If you haven't read Dr. Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair" yet, I'd suggest you pick it up soon. There is a lot of good information about how the WS temporarily loses their mind and thinks of no one but themselves (and the OP). I think it will help you understand the craziness that's taken over your husband.<P>{{{BIG HUG}}}}}

Hope<P>I have been in a similar situation. Although my H managed to see our kids about once a week, while he lived with OW, he didn't call them or make it to any of their special events unless they fell on the one day of the week he decided he would see them. <P>My girls were 11 and 15 when their dad left the first time, how old are your girls? Mine were 13 and 16 the second time he left (yes, he left twice and came back twice). They do not have the loving relationship with him now that they once had, even though he moved back home again almost 8 moths ago. If he leaves again, and that is possible as I recently found out he is still seeing OW and I'm going to put a stop to this all one way or another, their relationship with their dad will be beyond repairable. They have both told him and myself *if* he ever leaves again they will divorce him when I do. Now mind you my girls are almost 18 and 16 so these are not childish threats. Any how enough of me, back to you. <P>I think the reason some WSs don't see their children is because it is easier to deal with the pain of missing them than it is to deal with looking at the pain they have caused their own flesh and blood. I do believe OW do all they can to convince the MM it's fine not to see the kids too, especially if they know the W is fighting for the marriage. My H's OW told him he needed time for himself, that the kids will *get over* their anger and to let them stew in their own juices and see what it feels like to not have him around and then maybe they will appreciate what a wonderful human he is, that if they refused to let her be a part of their lives then they didn't even love him because if they really loved him they would except her, she told him he had been a parent for a long time and now it was his time to have her baby him (yuck). So she was on the sidelines cheering on his lack of envolvement. I'd lay money that many OW do the same. You see they can not compete with the history their W's have with the MM. The children are a big part of that history. OW who are not 100% certain their MM is theirs for good want as little contact between their MMs history and their MM as possible.<P>Here is how I handled My H's lack of envolvement with his children while he was living with OW. All of this was done is the sweetest most loving plan A way and tone of voice, of course. <P>********<P>Make yours and your children's plans and don't take him or his existence into consideration. If he calls and wants to see him tell him how sorry you are but plans are already made for that day, time, whatever. Invite him to accompany you and the children if you want, but don't change the plans for him. And do NOT force your children to cancel their plans, if they have individual plans that don't involve you, because dad all of a sudden wants to see them. Let them decide what they want to do. He needs a look into the future of what his life will be like as a non custodial parent. <P>Do not offer any information to him about the children. If he asks how they are say fine. If he wants more info ask him if he wants to talk to the kids and then hand them the phone. He needs to learn if he isn't in the day to day lives of his children you will not be the link to their lives.<P>If your kids want to be in activities now is the time to sign them up for anything they have ever wanted to do. Keep them busy, with little time to think about how dad is treating them. Then when dad does want to see them he'll be seeing them around their schedules not when it is convienent for him. He needs to learn that the children's lives do not revolve around him and his wants. He needs to learn there will be schedules he will have to follow if he is to ever see his children as an absent father.<P>My children REFUSED to see their father unless I was present. If he wanted to see them he had to come to OUR house. If he wanted to take them to dinner then Mom had to go too or they wouldn't go. He asked them why and they told him that they just don't trust him and they don't feel safe with him. They told me that they knew if I was there he wouldn't try to force them to meet his OW. In fact our oldest told him if he ever married OW she would never see or speak to him again,and she MEANT IT. And the youngest told him he couldn't give her away at her wedding because he is giving her away now by moving out of the family home and moving in with OW, so she wouldn't allow him to ever give her away again. <P>My children ALWAYS brought stuff up in front of their dad that they knew he was clueless about because he didn't bother to stay involved. If they had a bunch of friends over for a sleepover they'd bring up to me or each other something like, "Remember what so and so did last Sat, wasn't that the coolest?" When dear old dad asked what it was they'd either tell him it was too hard to explain the whole thing or if he was at home with his family, where he belonged, he wouldn't need to ask. Of course loving plan A mom would always encourage the children to share with their father. <P>The best thing I did for my children and their dad's realtionship was put them in counseling. The counselor helped them with their feelings about their dad's lack of involvement and encouraged them to deal directly with their dad and let them know exactly how they felt. It also gave my H a professional to listen to about the damage his actions were casuing the children. You see I also heard what unreasonable, spoiled brats the kids were being, just like you. But when he told me that I handed him the counselors phone number and told him to see what an expert had to say about the children.<P>**********<P>The words *play happy family* are all too familar to me, but in a different way than they are to you. The OW would always tell my H she is sick and tired of him *playing happy family* with us. Infact the 2nd time he left to move in with OW he lied to her about seeing the children at our home and about me being with them. I know this as he confessed it to me.<P> I do understand how your children and you feel about letting the OW into their lives. They don't have to let her in. He can't force them to, and you don't have to facilitate it either. Actually unless the two of you divorce and he marries (God forbid) the OW many courts will obey the children's and your wishes of not letting her into their lives. Many courts don't approve of children being exposed to immoral situations.<P>Above all protect your children. Don't make excuses for their father. Fill their lives with as much love and joy you can muster. It's not your job do make him do his job as a parent. It's not your job to protect your children from the kind of parent their father has become. It's your job to be their mother and let them learn what their father has become on their own. No it's not easy for them to come to the realization that their father is not the man they thought he was, but as long as you are there to pick up the pieces and love them the way a parent should they will eventually come to see him for what he is and love you even more for being what you are.<P>Just keep in mind that regardless of what kind of jerk he is acting like now, NOT seeing his children either is killing him slowly now or will kill him in the end when they want nothing to do with him. Either way unless he does something to change things with his daughters he will be dead meat.<P>My prayers are with you and your girls.<P>FC<P>

Dear Susie and Fingers Crossed ( or may I just call you FC),<P>Thank you so much for being there when I need to talk and being so honest and generous with your advice. <P>Susie, <BR>I have had a chance to do a search and now realise that you have been trying to repair the damage to your marriage since your husband found out at Christmas. How is it going? I hope he understands how much you clearly love and care for him. So many people on this board would love to have a spouse like you that demonstrates remorse and a willingness to work on their marriage as you so clearly do. All my prayers are with you and I hope that you find a stronger and more loving marriage. Every experience in life can have a positive side, and I think an affair teaches you to better appreciate what you already have.<P>FC,<BR>Thank you so much for your wonderful and insightful post. <P>My girls were 14 and 17 when all this started last March. And just like your husband mine has left twice although he has not come back a second time. His separation from the OW when he came back the first time had fanned the fuels and mentally he went totally off the deep end and to be honest some of his behavior to cover up the deceits and lies was so bizarre that it was almost frightening. <P>My girls are now 15 & 18. The oldest hopes to start University in the fall so he has very little time to get to know her again. I have pointed this out to him and he responded that I was putting pressure on him by indicating that he only had a narrow window of opportunity to see her again. If you can call 8/9 months a narrow window! She does have big exams coming up and I said it might be better if he re-introduced himself before they started as she has had enough to cope with this last year. But I said it more nicely than that. <P>I haven’t had a chance to search your history yet. How long was he gone the first time, how long was he back before he left the second time, and how long did he stay away the second time. Mine was gone 7 weeks, back 8 weeks and has now been gone again 7 months. When he left the first time he told them one of the reasons he was going was because they didn’t pay him enough attention and in the time he was back for 8 weeks he promised he would never leave them again. There has been some serious damage.<P> I do struggle some days to make my children feel as loved and protected as they need to feel. I now have total respect for all those Moms and Dads out there trying to be everything and everyone. <P>I have one other interesting development. Got a phone call today from someone who works for him, asking to speak to H. I decided not to cover for him anymore and said I have a number you can contact him on but he doesn’t live here anymore he left about a year ago to live with a woman he met in the office and we haven’t seen him at the house for over 3 months. This guy obviously had no idea, he works abroad much of the time and was definitely shocked at the news. Thought H was the good, honest, solid type. I said that H preferred that no one at work knew, but I really don’t want anyone ringing the house looking for him as it places an unnecessary burden on the children to expect them to lie when work calls come through. He has made it clear to the children and I that he expects us to maintain the deceit but I have had it. <P>If we ever get to see him again I will try and follow your advice.<P>BTW, I am very sorry to read that your husband is still seeing OW. What does he hope to gain from it except a lot of pain and anguish for everyone concerned? <P>Love to you both,<P>Hope<P>

FC,<P>I never would have believed that my H could stand seeing his children so little, but I don't see any evidence that it is bothering him terribly. Our two oldest girls want nothing to do with him. One hasn't talked to him in two years. If it is killing him, he sure doesn't act like it. The little ones, not surprisingly, want his approval and his love, and beg him to see more of them. <P>I am not at all sure anymore if he cares much about how his children feel about him. His father never paid much attention to him, and as an adult he went many months without any contact with his parents or his sibling, and it never seemed to bother any of the parties involved particularly. <P>The older girls have said that he will be sorry when he is old and none of his kids want anything to do with him. I'm not so sure that he will care. <BR>

I don't know if it helps much, but understand that you're not alone. There are many of us on this board who have scratched our heads over formerly loving parents who left the kids. It defies explanation.<P>Having been at this over two years and seeing on minimal improvement, my only advice is that there is no value in spending time wondering why or in believing that it's got to be temporary. It may or may not be. My opinion is that you're best off dealing with what exists now, not what might or might not be in the future. Do the best for the kids that you can do and don't worry about him.

Dear Everyone,<P>Thanks for your replies.<P>Distressed, <BR>I don't worry about him much anymore. Only a little it must be a hang over from the old happier days. But I do worry very much how all this is affecting the children. <P>They have seen their Dad going from a loving kind attentive father, to one who when EA started deliberately avoided them (not out of guilt but to support his theory that they didn't need him anymore) and when the affair turned PA he would beliitle them and sneer.<P>Once it was out in the open at least we had an explanation for the weird behavior but it doesn't change their pain. Young girls this age take their cues on how to deal with men from the first real man in their lives - their Dad. He has taught them that men cheat, men lie, they don't care about hurting the ones that they (once) loved most and above all that it is OK to be cruelly selfish. What kind of legacy is that to leave your children with? The oldest is slowly turning into a man hater and the youngest is desparate for affection (and I do try to make up for his absence).<P>My sister says that one day he will regret what he has done - may he just live long enough.<P>Hope

Hope, FC here again.<P>I know only too well what you are going through ,with dealing with your children's feelings about their dad, especially now that I know your daughter's ages. <P>I find it so sad that WS's think that once the children hit the early teen years that they will be able to deal with their leaving and adultery. I think they are both misinformed and crazy to expect a young teen, trying to come to grips with their own body and it's changes, to be able to handle something most adults have big problems dealing with. The teen years are the WORST time a spouse could pull this crap.<P>Regardless of what H wants NEVER allow your children to aid and abed their father's lies. If someone calls from work and they answer they need to tell the truth, that he no longer lives there. Although, I'm sure you wouldn't allow them to lie about it anyway. It happened to my oldest and her dad was furious she told someone he didn't live here any more. All she said to her dad was, "I'm not lying for you dad, you do enough of that on your own." He wasn't thrilled with her comment, but there wasn't much he could do as she was 100% correct and being honest. <P>I understand what Nellie and distressed feel and how their H's are treating their kids like strangers or even worse. But as my counselor told me years ago... "In the end when one is laying there getting ready to meet their maker, they aren't wishing for one more beer, or one more night of passion with OW, they are wishing they would have one more opportunity to kiss their child's forhead, tuck them in, feel their hand in theirs, or hear I love you Dad one last time." Some WS's find missing the children easier to deal with than the anger the child shows towards them. Some WS's are so self centered they don't catch on to what they have lost for a long time, because they are so self centered they think the child will always welcome them into their hearts and lives when ever it is convinient for them. Some get so lost in the fog their children become second to OW and in such a state the OW is all that matters to them. And I'd lay money most OW who knows the MM's spouse wants them back will do anything in their power to keep the MM away from the kids. But rest assured WS's that leave their children behind DO hurt, eventually. And I firmly believe the longer they stay away the worse it hurts. Sometimes they block it out of their minds but don't fool yourself. In the dark hours before they fall asleep there is a tug on their heart strings. But in the rare case there isn't... well... that type of person is less than human and will be dealt with swiftly by his maker.<P>I understand what your daughter is going through, with the hating guys thing too. My oldest, who turns 18 this year, was not interested in boys, other than as friends, untill about a year and a half ago. Her stance was all men are pigs and she wasn't going to let any man hurt her. She met a great guy back then, and they are still together. He has taken their relationship VERY slowly as he knows all the heartache she has endured from her dad. He told me he wants to marry my daughter when they graduate from college, because he will make sure NO ONE ever hurts her again. A really sweet kid he is. That is what your D needs someone who will show her that men can be kind, caring etc. Now if you could just order her one on line. LOL! Seriously though, give her time. She'll come around it's just so sad they have to loose so much of their carefree years due to their dad's ignorance.<P>My younger one was just like yours, too. Very clingy to me and wanted a b/f more than she wanted her next breathe. She will be 16 this year and is now seeing a really nice boy. And is just now starting to want to break away from me. And this is with her dad being back home. I shudder to think how she would be if he hadn't come back.<P>I'm in Illinois, you don't happen to be any wear close, do you? It seems we share some similarities with our stories and children. <P>I keep pulling for you and your girls, Hope.<P>FC

Dear FC,<P>Thanks for looking in and for the post. It makes me so sad to read that your girls have had to endure the same thing mine have gone through. My oldest had a boyfriend until recently but they split up and that hasn't contributed to getting any warm feelings when she thinks about boys. She is off to University in the fall and I really hope that when she gets there she can fall in with a good crowd have a few laughs and maybe meet someone nice.<P>As to the OW, I am pretty certain, if she is as manipulative as she has so far demonstrated herself to be, that she is making all sorts of pretty noises about wanting to meet the children and how he is so wonderful, that they just don't appreciate him etc., etc. And she is also probably telling him that I am being manipulative by wanting him to see the children, as I am trying to split them up. He sometimes tells me the things she says and she is a real gem this one!<P>I wish I lived closer but I am the other side of the Atlantic. I originally hail from Michigan.<P>I do visit my sister from time to time so maybe we can get together the next time I'm over.<P>Thinking of you,<P>Hope<P><p>[This message has been edited by hope257 (edited February 13, 2001).]

Guess what?<P>I just was promoted from junior to member!<P>Hope