Hey thanks for looking in. I'm hoping to get some WS spouse's insights to the EA theory. Do you believe that a friendship that affects your marriage without sex is an affair or did you strictly classify that an affair had to have some form of physicality to it. <P>The reason I'm asking is my wife's insistence that friendship/co-working with OM without any type of a no-contact agreement in place is acceptable. Right now, I'll pretty much believe that her physical relationship is limited to a hug about once ever month or so. Today it just occurred to me that she has a very strong belief that the EA concept is hogwash. Whenever the term has arisen (even recently) she would say something to the effect of "If you choose to believe there is such a thing then that’s fine but I don't" So I guess what I'm digging for is… Did you ever have a point along the withdraw process where you couldn't believe in this concept because you knew that non-acceptance of this concept would justify your means.<P>Any other thoughts or comments on your EA position are welcome as well.<P>Thank you in advance,<BR>Mike<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited February 09, 2001).]

HI:<P>Sorry, but I don't know that much about your story. Did your wife's relationship with the OM ever become physical? If so, I would think that the continued contact unquestionably makes it harder. As a male WS (EA with one physical encounter), I think any contact with the OW would have made recovery impossible. I wouldn't have been able to get "over" her, and my W would have left me. That's just me, though. Perhaps your W is different.<P>As to your general question, to parrot the accepted wisdom of the board, sure an EA is an affair. In my case, my affair was MOSTLY an EA, only having been physical once. <P>At the time, of course, I didn't think that what was going on was an "affair"(although the possibility occurred to me). I just had a very good "friend" who I happened to care for an inordinate amount and who took up most of my emotional energy. I assumed that I was acting just the same as I always had towards my W, that there was room in my life for TWO really important women. Of course, I wasn't, and there wasn't room. I didn't see how lonely my W was, how patient she was being with me, how much I had withdrawn. Plus, I was afraid my W would think there WAS something physical going on, so I hid the extent (although not the fact) of the "friendship", feeling justified because we weren't having SEX after all.<P>Once you go down that road (inordinate emotional energy invested in someone to whom you're attracted sexually, neglect of spouse, lying), you may as WELL be having a physical affair. Basically, anything that inserts dishonesty into your marriage, or that substitutes someone other than your spouse as the focal point of your emotional energy for a long period, is an affair. The betrayal is the same whether it's physical or not.<P>That's not to say, of course, that the physical part doesn't matter. The pain and shock of knowing that someone else has touched your spouse in a way only YOU were supposed to is, to judge from my W's reaction, intense and horrible. If I had managed, at the last, to keep my hands to myself and had come clean to my W, our recovery likely would have been much quicker. But you can "stray" emotionally as well, just as easily and with just as devastating results.<P>Again, I don't know the extent of your W's involvement with the OM. If it was ever physical, though, the idea that a hug every now and again and constant contact through work is okay is just flat out wrong. She's kidding herself.<P>Take care

No, No, No, No. I'm just the BS here but that's how our disaster started. All it really takes is a really bad day away from home, a few Vodka and tonics with your "buddy" and the next thing you know, you're waking up in his room or you in his. It doesn't happen that way every time but sooner or later, it will happen. And I don't care how mature, controled or happly married the "buddy" seems. Trust no one.

Hi hope you fellas don't mind a w point of view. My H had EA for at least 2 yrs and adamently called it a friendship, still does. There was secrecy, lunches almost weekly and he had withdrawn from me for all that time. <BR>If the OP is not a friend to you also, why would your S be so involved, even if they *are* a friend to you, any secrecy and withdrawl would state clearly that there was inappropriate interest.<BR>My H still defends OW to some extent though he will say he regrets having a relationship with 'someone' that made him neglect his S. He can't put her name in there just yet. <BR>It is 7 mos since DD and they no longer work together (Oct 00) <BR>I am interested in the replies you get and I have sent this page to my husband, though he doesn't approve of my being here. LAD

Taxman - I've posted most of my history out here before but here's a recap with some info I never disclosed before.<P>Yes she had at least an 11 month physical affair that was only during business trips which took place very regularly (every week) and moved to sporadic towards the end (every 2weeks or so). I finally forced DD disclosure with evidence from snooping in Jan 00 (5th month). Emails and phone conversations for "business" were constant. Started S. Harley counseling soon after d-day, but she would not participate, so I eventually stopped. In the July of 00 (10th month) of her affair, after a major session of wackiness, where she was angry thinking that I was bugging her cell phone and having her followed while she was out of town I presented her with a plan B letter. Also during this time period she had been living mostly in the guest room, telling me that we are over, we are separated, get over it, go find some one else and the best "lets just be roommates, you do your thing, I'll do mine and if our paths cross then so be it". In my plan B letter I planned to stay in the house because I was the primary care provider for our 3 & 5 year old while she traveled. She blatantly refused plan B in any way shape or form and would not leave. The only discussion we could have after the plan B thing was repeating her pervious positions from above and that the whole MB thing was a crock of Sh_t.. <P>The next section of information is new to this board that I have never included in my previous history. Not anything I'm proud of. <P>I truly considered her words to be real and trying to go forward my way was not working so I deceided to try to work it out her way. I told her she was free to do whatever she liked in her personal life without recourse from me. With that I started dating again. Asked her one time before I went on the first date "Are we still not married?" Of course the answer was we were not. Never specifically told her about starting to date and she didn’t ask. Slept with one women on 1/2 dozen occasions during a 6 week period. My wife was traveling for business most of the time so she seemed clueless and never asked what I was doing. About the 5th week of my affair is when my wife took her hidden detour trip to the OM's town and told him good bye. She made a point of lying about her location and then told me the truth upon her return. But the truth went something like "I left him for me, I'm mad at you for having to do it, don’t think this means I'm going to work on out marriage". All I could say is ya dada ya dada, I've heard this type of story 3 or four times now and if your pissed at me then go back to him. Also had to include that I would gladly ship her stuff (OM is over 1000 miles away) to his house if his Wife doesn’t mind. <P>It was also about this time that I was starting to examine my own decisions about having an affair. Mostly that no matter what my wife had told me that this was morally wrong "for me". I had lied to wife 3 times and was starting to see my OW in a new light. The OW was single, 5 years younger than I (I'm 35) attractive and fun to be with, but I started seeing the predator side of her and she was sleeping with a married man in his home. Definitely not anyone I would date if I were really divorced. So I ended it a week later. Eventually blocked her email and phone #'s a couple weeks later. Still never told my wife. <P>After another few weeks I asked my wife if she wanted to try some other local non-MB type counseling. She agreed and we when to 3 or 4 sessions but it was a flop. <P>I started to Plan A again and this started to warm her slightly and right before the holidays she seemed much closer. I didn't want to go further witout her knowing the truth about some of the thing I had done. It was at this point that I disclosed my horrible deeds. 3 or 4 days of hell and then told her that I was very ashamed at myself for my actions. She had been extremely bent on the fact that I had this person spend the night once in our marriage bed. (unbeknownst to our kids) I told her that at the time and given the circumstances it didn't even seem like an issue and that she almost received a phone call because I had always promised her (after her affair started) that if I were going to see someone else she would be the first to know. Truly considered the call and then said to my self "I'd just be doing it to upset her and this isn’t about revenge". Yea right!!! Back to the real story line - Told her I was really watching her reaction to this situation after the understanding that I had show her and the situation she had left me in. She made up the next day in a big way. All good. She bought a new bed and I remodeled a bedroom that we made our new bedroom into.<P>I've told her that I've had no contact in 5 months. Offered her my schedule and friends phone #'s to check up on me, offered to take a lie detector test or to write my own no_contact letter to help her to begin regain trust. She on the other hand refuses to give out information about OM on her trips willingly, will not negotiate a no-contact or business contact letter and mostly gets pissed if I dig there. <P>I should also disclose that I recently had a PI follow her on her last business trip where OM was present (3 weeks ago). That was a complete fiasco. The guy followed the wrong couple and the information I got back was not flattering if it had been my wife. I didn’t loose it when I spoke to her just kept telling her it was OK to tell me the truth and I thought there was more to it that she had said. I guess I was a little too confident because she asked me if I had her followed and without hesitation, I told her yes with the report I had received. She for the very first time told me I could call So and So (people we both know quite well and dislike the "new" her) and verify her story. I said that’s enough for me, You've never offered me any verification and I choose to believe you. Damn she was pissed…still kinda is. I just asked her to try to think of it in a positive way that I cared enough to go to the effort of finding out. That ones still in up in the air.<P>I would also like to say that I am sorry for miss-leading anyone here that was kind enough to offer me advice and insight. I hope that I can at least be forgiven here. I also apologize for putting this long-winded topic in thread that it doesn’t belong, but it’s time and my wife believes that any advise I might see here is irrelevant without this info. I must agree. I also understand that my extramarital activities are not justified by any set of circumstance that I allowed myself to be placed in. For any kind readers that are considering a revenge affair, please understand that being an adulterer will now always be part of your past no matter what. Prior to my PA, I had always prided myself on never even getting close to cheating on my wife in any way. I traveled for business about 10 - 20 % of the time, had a very powerful position, drank in hotels, airports and bars across the country, turned down several opportunities to cheat. All before I had ever heard of MB and their principles. The only rule I ever had was to treat every conversation and interaction with others like my wife was in the room with me. Metaphorically speaking she really was, she was in my heart every step of the way. I now will always be an adulterer and know that will be something to reckon with on my judgment day.<P>All that being said I'm talking about EA's after the PA. <P><BR>A2timer - Sounds real similar to the begining of our troubles. Me working a lot and unhappy about the whole work situation. I had sold my company to a bunch of fools and had to stay on for 1 year to run it into the ground at their directive (firing trusted employees, etc). She was traveling and telling her new friend how bad it was at home over dinner and drinks. Then handholding and talks about feelings for one another…you know the rest. It's in the proverbial script.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited February 09, 2001).]

I think there is such a thing as an EA, but I think my definition is a little "confused" or was confused. PA - as I defined it - was sexual intercourse. EA - well, at the time, it was probably closer to PA - kissing, making out, other stuff.<P>I know my definitions are warped, were warped whatever. But during the EA part - when we were only "making out," well, I knew it was wrong, but I basically said that it was not a full-fledged affair - because there was no intercourse. Until the PA (As I define it) happened, I could no longer say that i wasn't having an A - I mean I knew I was all along - something was not right, but when I was in "muddled thinking mode," I just didn't think it was an affair.<P>Now, looking back on it, there were lots of things involved in my EA. I emailed this guy and he emailed me all day long at work. He'd call maybe once a day - sometimes twice a day. For me, I hated my job, but for six months I did not take a day of leave because I looked forward to getting his emails, or seeing him - which I only did at work.<P>For me, there is such a thing as an EA. Loking back on things - even if there was no "making out" there still would have been an EA - because, basically, I looked forward more to going to work than taking a day off to be with my H. Thoughts of the OM were consuming my daily life. Even when I wasn't around him, I thought about him - I never really gave my H my full attention - though I tried.<P>I guess for me, you can have a friendship with someone from the opposite sex - but that friend would not be someone I would confide in - or share my deepest, darkest secrets. I guess, for me, now that I'm thinking clearly, a friendship can turn into a EA - when you look forward to seeing your "friend" more than you look forward to seeing your H. When you go away on a business trip, who do you miss more, the OM or your H.<P>I think there are various degrees of EA, and obviously I was using the Clintonian definition of sexual relations, but where there is no physical contact, I still think that you can have an abnormal attachment to another man - other than your H. I think they exist.

I agree with SKM. My A was mainly an EA and I allowed myself to believe it was ok (and not an affair) because there was no sex. I did not recognize or understand the idea of an EA until after it was over. It was hard to answer questions from my H like, when did it start?, because I had a hard time recognizing the line between friendship and EA. Looking back, I think it should have been clear that as soon as there were secrets, or that there were incidents or conversations with OM that I would not have wanted my H to hear, then it was an EA. Someone else (Lighthouse?) wrote that you shouldn't behave any differently than if your spouse was standing next to you. Beyond that, it is an EA. <P>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited February 09, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Clouds (edited February 09, 2001).]

Clouds: wish my H thought like you<BR>HI: Im Bs not Ws but my opinion is .... If you Hide something from your Spouse such as conversations, Lying so you dont "hurt Feelings" etc... its an EA theres a strong emotional attatchment to someone who affects your marriage who can Compromise your Marraige by being a "friend" ... <P>------------------<BR>"The human Heart is often the victim of the sensations of the moment; Success intoxicates it to presumption and disappointment defects and terrifies it."<BR>~~Valney~~