I was wondering if anyone could help me out on this one. Over a year ago,I gained alot of confidence in myself by losing weight and staying fit. Well, the better I started to look, the more I began to look- at other men. I am married and had seperated my H briefly to see if the grass was greener.My H didnt seem to give me the appreciation and communication I was looking for, so I began to meet men where I exercise. These men were doctors and engineers. I could tell that these men were interested but couldnt go out with me cause I was married, I began to feel depressed about being married which may be part of the reason I separated. But I never did date anyone the little time I was separated. I saw my H with another woman while we were separated, got jealous and started to really appreciate the things he did do for me and couldnt see myself without him. I am now back with him, but sometimes catch myself fantasizing about being with other men and dating other men,even when we are intimate, I fantasize he is someone else. What does all of this mean? I feel like a horrible wife.<P>confused

<BR>You are using what are called "partner replacement fantasies" to enhance sex. I don't think that they're a bad thing per se, its just that they tend to get in the way of real intimacy during sex. This is discussed in depth in David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage, which I suggest you read.<P>Bystander

Okay, I will keep check out the book, So now that things are back to normal with my H, why do I still want to "explore?" Now that I know he will be there, I think it is safe to look and see what I can attract. Sometimes I think there is someone else out there to fulfill my needs better. The more knowledge I absorb, I feel like I can fit the bill of a man that is more successful than my H. Does that make sense? I guess to have someone to share what I know with or who knows more than I do. I seem to get a intellectual stimulation from more successful men. How can I feel the same about my H? I really dont think telling him about what I am experiencing is a good idea. what do you make of all of this<P>CF

Can'tForget,<P> I think one thing your missing here is the difference between Reality and Fantasy. Perhaps other people may be more attractive because of their Social scale but are they more adept at meeting other En's? I don't honestly believe anyone out there is a perfect match per se... I think they can be if they WANT to be but theirs two sides to that equation... I think you'd find if you did explore these fantasies you'd soon realize that they are just that... That is what is typical of the FOG... Sooner or later the Fantasy will fall and you'll be back to where you were. I'd suggest you work on your existing relationship and make it better... Believe me the grass looks greener on the other side but you may find out it's because of all the cow droppings on the other side of the fence... You obviously have feelings for you H and I'd bet they were much deeper in the beginning of your relationship. Work on getting that back instead of starting the whole process over again... Just my thoughts..Crick

Crick-<BR>I'm sure you are right. I have been with my H since I was 17, I had no previous relationships- could this be the reason I am so curious? I even have male friends that I email, there is one particular guy that I've had my eye on for a long time. He knows I'm married, so doesnt go there. But I continue talking to him. We are pretty much internet buds. BUt I fantasize about him too. He definitely meets my communication and status needs! Any more insight?<P>CF

CF...I know exactly where your coming from. My story is similar. I was a geek in HS, shy and wasnt part of "the crowd", got into fitness in College but didnt notice what it did for me besides being healthy until my early 30's. I married young and by the time I was in my early 30's our marriage was kinda ho hum with work, house, money, kids etc. EN were not being met on either end. I started to notice that I was being noticed by other women, some married! Anyway, I had some flirty encounters thru the years that went to the point that I knew they could go further then stopped them. It was a real ego boost, real flattering, but also very wrong. I see that know but didnt want to see it then. Then I met up with an old aquaintance thru the internet, we e-mailed, then IMed, then the phone, then met. I fell for her HARD, almost left my marrige for her. Thru prayer, this site, counseling and alot of reading (you may wanna check out "The Myth of Greener Grass" by JA Peterson) my marriage is back on track and better than it has been in a long time. It has been a LONG road back and ALOT of hard work. I still think of her...I dont know if I will ever be really over her. Anyway, do I still look at women?yes. Do I know that I could have other women? yes. Do I want someone else? no. My wife is a wonderful person who is not perfect...none of us are so we cant look for it. I dont know what your husband does for a living but it should have nothing to with your relationship. It is what HE has chosen to do.<P>This next thing, I dont want to come across like a jerk or preaching to you so take it for what its worth. Your male friends that you stay in touch with...be careful, your playing with fire. The internet has alot of ways to communicate that is not face to face which has a profound effect on that form of communication and what it can turn into. It is far to easy to fall into an abyss and EXTREMELY hard to get out of it once your in it. Be careful to not cross any boundries of intimacy that you should have with your husband with these male friends. This one that meets your communication and status needs? the one you "fantasize" about? Your on the edge of an affair kiddo! Take it from someone who has been down that road...well I could go on and on, so again take it for what its worth...good luck. <P><p>[This message has been edited by dazed2 (edited February 12, 2001).]

CF-<BR>As our marriages mature, and we age often times our ENs change. So becareful of fantacizing about the perfect spouse. I was attracted to my H first, for many reasons, including exceptional intelligence and success. After 10 years of marriage, I had an A, in part, because he wasn't meeting my ENs. No spouse is perfect. We chose our partners for good reasons (and sometimes bad). As we mature and change, we have to learn to understand how to continue to meet each others' ENs. Being committed to a marriage means continuing to work with it and grow. Have you read His Needs, Her Needs? There may be things that you can to to enhance your relationship. Work on making yourself interesting, do things together with your husband that helps to fill both of your needs. Maybe you could read or do something that is intellectually challenging with your H, so you can share this part of your life with him. <P>The things that our society labels as "successful" clearly doesn't make them happy. People with degrees, good jobs, and money aren't always the best partners, because they have sacrificed many other important aspects of their lives to get there. Be careful what you wish for.

dazed2-<P>Thanks for a male perspective! you are right, once you've met someone and see their attributes, they are very attractive- hard habit to break! I will TRY and do what you suggest. So, if my H is satisfied with me, why do I see him looking at OW??? He says it annoys him when I get onto him for looking. I tell him that it is annoying when I have to see him do it. Makes me feel inadequate. He doesnt understand.<P>My H is very stable in his job, has been with a co. for seven years, he doesn;t have a college degree, which is so attracting to me. I know I need to look past this, he's a real family oriented guy. We've been together for 11 years, no children. I am 27 now, he 31, but I suspect he will want children soon- all the while I am working on my degree. Any more info will help!<P>CF<P>

CF, welcome back...I saw your post and will reply in the morning, I gotta run, but I do have some more info for ya that I hope will help.

CF...Start worrying when he STOPS looking, I mean...I still look, but I do it in a way that my wife does'nt even notice that I am looking. I mean I'm not staring with my tonque hangin out, but if I see an attractive woman, I look discreetly, I'm not dead OR blind, I'm human! I look! appreciate her physical beauty, and move on. I'm not on the prowl for another women, I just appreciated a womens beauty. Men are more visual when it comes to our libido, women I think like the gentle words, conversation, gestures and thoughts. When I look at another women whether I'm with my wife or not, you would not even know that I looked at her. I'm not sure how you know your husband is checking out these other women but he should not do it in a way to make you feel this way. You guys may also want to make sure that your EN are being met...order "His Needs, Her Needs" both of you should go thru it and talk openly about it. <P>Let me ask you something...You dont like him looking at other women, I respect and appreciate that, again I dont know in what manner or fashion he is doing this...how would you like him E-mailing women on a daily basis? Could maybe some of your insecurity be self driven? Does he know about your male friend that you E-mail?, and your thoughts about him? Maybe some of your "getting on him" for looking at other women is a guilty conscience. Maybe it REALLY is no big deal to him but because your really not totally committed to your marriage at this point that there is a little bit of tranferance going on?<P>CF, I gotta tell ya, You married this guy so there are things that attracted you to him, those things are STILL there, you both just need to work at it. Happiness, committment and love are not something that happens when you find the right person...Happiness, committment and love are the result of a DECISION to BE happy, BE committed, and LOVE someone. They are not DUE to circumstance, they are a decision in spite of circumstance.<BR>In some way, shape, or form the grass will look greener from time to time whether it involves the opposite sex, job, home etc, and temptation will ALWAYS be around, it is how you deal with it that counts. Well I have rambled long enough, Good luck.<P><p>[This message has been edited by dazed2 (edited February 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> he doesn;t have a college degree, which is so attracting to me. <BR>CF<P>[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Have you asked yourself why this is attractive to you?<P><p>[This message has been edited by dazed2 (edited February 13, 2001).]

Degrees are sexy? When did that happen? It does sound a bit like a cover for something else.

CF,<P>Your comment about your H not having a college degree was very interesting to me and is in line with some other things I posted to you earlier. It seem from what you have said that you are taking college courses. Toward a degree in which you are interested I hope.<P>You may not appreciate this yet, but a college degree does not make you smarter. It does not make you better. It does not make you wealthier ( I'll touch on that in a minute.) A college degree offers to you different lines of work; hopefully work that you find interesting and fulfilling. If it doesn't do that you wasted your time.<P>Let me talk about the wealth thing again. A study has been done (probably by the AMA ),but the finding was the over their life time automechanics made more money the physicians. Why, because the automechanics are reasonably well paid and they work from a much younger age. So their earning power is greater. <P>Now why do I mention this? Because I suspect that although you are not a young child, but your are very young in my book (27) , you have some dreams that don't correspond to reality. I know that status is important to people, but status can be gained in so many ways. And of all the ways to gain status, having a college degree, is the least productive.<P>Let me illustrate. If you H were a religious man and became an elder in the church and helped his fellow human being, he would have tremendous status in the community. If your H were a very good mechanic, and was known as a very honest man who people wanted to bring their cars to, he would have status in the community. If your H helped coach sports programs in the community he would have status. I could go on CF.<P>Why do you think I sound so down about your attraction to someone with a college degree? Do you suppose I don't have one, and being considerably older have found that I have compensated for not having one? You would be supposing wrong. I have three college degrees, BUT having had them, teaching and training other people, and working with many people, I can tell you from experience what makes people good and worth respect is not their degrees. It is their character, their contributions to other people, and how they take care of their families.<P>CF, I cannot make you see your H in a better light. But I can hope to help you see life for what it really is. It is not about degrees, nor is it about money. It is about so much more than that. You would do well to look at yourself, and see if that "so much more" resides within you. If it doesn't then it is time that it did. I believe that if you do this you will find that your view of your H will change.<P>As for fantasies, people have them: End of story. As for you emailing your male friends, you have already been told by an expert: you are playing with fire and you are the one that will get burnt. Unfortunately, if you get burned, your H will suffer as well.<P>So step back and have a look at yourself and think about all of this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

CF,<P>Just read your thread here wanted to post on it quickly. I was very happy to see a male posted already basically what I intended to tell you. (I think it was Dazed) Men are very visual that is a fact. I am wondering has he always done this?<BR>Do you consider it simply looking or leering? My H has never done this when he is with me and I must be honest I am glad he doesn't. It isn't something we ever had to discuss, he just has never done it, makes me feel like I have his full attention when we are out, doesn't make comments about OW while watching TV etc., and nor do I to him. I feel it just a respect thing.<BR>Does this mean he doesn't notice other women, of course not. I guess like Dazed he is just very discreet. However I must say as silly as this is going to sound, because he never did this, I began to think he didn't even notice other women in that way. (it sounds so silly now) I had a big reality check several years ago when I walked in on a conversation him and a male family member were having about a female they both knew. My H didn't say anything terrible, they were simply commenting and agreeing how attractive she was, great body etc. I was hurt and stunned. Looking back I find it quite comical that I was being so ridiculous. Of course he looks and notices, he is a normal guy, and I have no reason to feel threatened by this. Now if your H is leering not just glancing, this is a problem. I know you have tried letting him know this bothers you, yet it continues. Maybe you could try a new approach, simply telling him you feel disrespected when he does this etc. Also If this is a "new development" from him this may also indicate more going on. (Not that he is cheating but perhaps not feeling he has your full attention, trying to make a point or disconnect.....just a few thoughts)<P>Here I find something else in your story I can identify with. My H is very intelligent but he is not a huge conversationalist, I personally like to theorize things to death, analyze every situation get to the bottom or root of it etc.. This is not my H at all.<BR>Occasionally when I have a really great conversation with another male, it makes me a little sad that I cant share this with him. I have found myself feeling attracted to another based on this, comparing etc, BUT then I realize this is destructive to my relationship. Fortunately my closest female friends are just like me, and we can jabber on for hours on end (much to H complete confusion to what could possibly be left to say ) My H and I are so opposite in so many ways but I feel we off-set each other if that makes any sense. I knew we had very different personality types going in, and guess what? It was one of the things that attracted me to him! I couldn't be in a marriage with someone just like me, it would be a train wreck, he balances me. Anyway I know you are working on your marriage so my advice for what it is worth.....you should consider stopping the contact with these other males at least for now. You are very confused, hurt, angry, and this is destructive right now. Maybe later on it will be fine but for now BAD IDEA! You can not focus on repairing your marriage while having this going on. Do you have female friends that you can talk with the way you do with these males? Much safer. Well I have much more I would like to say but I have a busy day ahead of me so I must run. If you read through this site you will see this is not Dr. Harleys idea of how to build an affair proof marriage!<P>------------------<BR>incoginto :)<P>"You do not HAVE to be angry just because you have the right to be<BR>angry."<BR> Phillip C. McCraw in Life Strategies.

Once again, to all who have responded, thanks! I need all the help I can get. JL- to answer your question, yes I am working toward a degree. I dont see myself doing what I am doing for the rest of my life, although it is a good job. I do want to clear up something, I didnt mean for this to come across in a way that sounds like anyone without a degree is not important, etc. That is not it at all. I just said that I seem to be attracted to these types, especcially physicians-not because of money, I didn't come from money so I dont care about that, if I did, I wouldnt have married my husband. We both have a very comfortable life and make enough money. It seems to be the "brains" in what they know and can talk about. I have one as a friend as a matter of fact, and yes, he does have a lot of money, brains, gorgeous, etc., but I do not meet his needs obviously or I would be with him.<BR> I really do wish my H would talk intellectually. I would probably get turned on by it! But he has no desire at this point to go back to college, not only because of $, but because of time. He works 6 days week.<BR>On another note- my H cant seem to look at OW discreetly, I see it coming before he even does it. Even if I comment on a womans hair, he'll look over at her, but not her hair. He'll gaze up and down her body. I think I am a sexy woman, and I want to be looked at like he is looking at them.( but remember, he doesnt want me wearing those short-shorts) he just wants to see them on someone else. : ) Anyway, I am really thinking of everything you've said. I am really trying to find something to get rid of the resentment, and I am confusing myself as to why- if I am doing what I am doing,(emailing men) why do I come down so hard on him for trying to pursue another woman while we were separated? He couldnt decide between us and that infuriates me! Let me tell you that I have not AT ALL brought out or shown any resentment toward him because I dont know if its right or wrong. I keep it all bottled in. I dont want him to run like I did. But believe me , the resentment and anger and thoughts of infidelity are there, but only as a means of possibly helping me get past the pain I have made of our lives. Or as revenge.Often, I think of drinking more than just socially, so I wont have worries. I know this is not an answer, but it does cross my mind. JL- are you some sort of counselor, cause to me, with all of your input, you dont seem to be "Just Learning" you seem to know alot! Thanks again- gotta run for now, more later<P>CF<P>

CF,<P>No I am not a counselor. Not really in the people business at all. But I do know this you need to be discussing what you feel and why your feel it with your H. You have to allow him into your life and you are not. You are living a fantasy life and he is not allowed into it.<P>I also know what you really need. You need to talk with FHL. She can surely give you some perspective. Plus she is very funny, here is a thread to one of her latest threads in the Emotional Needs click here <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/003364.html" TARGET=_blank> FHL </A><P>This thread will give you a glimpse of the attitude one needs to have healthy and successful marriage. It also brings out the strangenesses of a spouse .<P>Read it and enjoy, but also pay attention FHL has a wonderful attitude, one that is very mature. <P>Speak with her, you will learn a great deal.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thanks- will look at FHL. So how do you know so much and able to give such wonderful advice? Tell me about yourself ( no I'm not flirting!!!)<P>Are you saying I should let my H in on my "little fantasies?" That would make him feel horrible! I can't help that I want my cake and I want to eat it too, but who wouldnt? <P> But I guess this could be some sort of revenge! But he is being too nice right now.<P>let me tell you, after reading this forum, especcially "still obsessing's" thread, it gets my mind wondering and worrying about more things! I am still obsessing too. : (<P>CF

CF,<P>My story is pretty mundane, but is posted around here. I'll have to dig up the thread for it, but it may take some time I don't have right now.<P>I didn't come here because of infidelity, but rather my feelings about my marriage and considering getting a divorce. At that time the forum was one single place to post. So everyone was pretty mixed. I didn't post for over 6 months just read and learned, then a lady posted whose story really got to me so I posted.<P>That started my addiction to this place. As for me I am old enough to be your father, actually probably older than your father. I spent my life moving and meeting new people so people and places have always interested me. Further, I all of these years I have learned a few things , but I have really learned a lot at this forum. It has completely changed my outlook on many aspects of marriage.<P>So I post here, try to offer some suggestions and ideas. I have been here long enough that I can even remember the great advice I have seen given to other people.<P>So that in a nutshell is my story. When I dig up that old thread I will post it for you to read.<P>Meanwhile, you do really need to establish communications with your H. You need to talk to him about how you feel, the things that bother you, but also the things you like about him. One thing people often forget when they "work" on their marriages are the good things. The positive aspects of the person they are married too. That is why I suggested that you read the thread from FHL.<P>You are still very young CF. It is easy to fantasize about some other man offering you a life filled with great sex, great adventure, super children, and no worries. Sadly, it doesn't often happen and when it does, you general get each of the great things one part at a time.<P>From what you have posted, it seems your H has much of this under his belt. He sees your pluses far outweighing your minuses.<P>There is so much to say, but people can only take so much advice, before it ceases to be advice and is only noise. I suspect I am getting close to the noise level.<P>Think about all of the posts you have received. In fact print them out and read them a few times. I suspect as the days go along they will make more sense. Any way good night.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I have another question for you JL- If I got jealous seeing my H with another woman and then I begged for him to take me back, is this dependency? Is it love? I want to care for him and be here for him and feel I cant live without him, How do I know the difference? Especcially if I've had no previous relationships to compare to. I dont even know if its my selfishness trying to keep him away from the OW. I dont ever want to see him with anyone else but me.<BR>Watcha think?<BR>CF

Co-Dependancy<BR> <BR>Letting Go. . . <BR>To "let go" does not mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else. <BR>To "let go" is not to cut myself off, it's the realization I can't control another. <BR>To "let go" is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences. <BR>To "let go" is not to try to change or blame another, it's to make the most of myself. <BR>To "let go" is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands. <BR>To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about. <BR>To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive. <BR>To "let go" is not to judge, but allow another to be a human being. <BR>To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging the outcome, but to allow others to affect their own destinies. <BR>To "let go" is not to be protecti, it's to permit another to face reality. <BR>To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept. <BR>To "let go" is not to nag, scold or agrue, but instead to search out my own <BR>shortcomings, and cherish myself in it. <BR>To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires but to take each day as it <BR>comes, and cherish myself in it. <BR>To "let go" is not to critize and regulate anybody, but to try to become what I dream I can be. <BR>To "let go" is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future. <BR>To "let go" is to fear less, and love more. <P>IT IS O.K. TO "LET GO"<P>