So ... I can't help thinking about the "tin cup" comment... When we talked about tax stuff, I mentioned my retirement deductions and he said he didn't have to worry about that (in relation to taxes). My witty remark was "Right ... when you retire you'll be begging in the streets with a little tin cup." His response was "yeah ... well, in a little while I'll be begging in the streets with a tin cup."<P>And then ... he told my friend when he got his hair cut that it would be the last time he sees her. That they will be moving in April. Huh? He won't need a haircut again until after April? But then he also said he'd be going down in March... Can't help but wonder if he'll go there in March and maybe not come back to get slug?<P>Wouldn't that be special?<P>I mentioned this to my friend and she thought it sounded like an interesting idea. She couldn't remember if he said that he was going in March or if THEY were going in March.<P>Then, the next night, this friend, who has been known to have prophetic dreams and has not ONCE prior to this dreamed anything about my husband, dreamed that he went down to Florida in March and did not come back for slug.<P>Then I dreamed about him last night. We were together somewhere special, I don't know where though (I seem to remember looking out through a large window out over water and seeing large icy mountains - an Alaskan cruise setting comes to mind), and things were good between us. Not quite right, but comfortable. And I don't remember anything else about the dream.<P>Strange ... portents? or just dreams...<P>I feel like this birthday coming up is crucial... maybe that's just my desperation screaming... or maybe my instincts, which I have trusted all along, telling me what to do. The V-Day thing is important too. I wish that something would be CLEAR to me for a change.<P>No, I'm not losing my mind, really. Just, as I said, thinking out loud to the only people who would remotely understand.<P>Love you all...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>Do what your heart tell you to do? Do you feel like this might be your last chance? Is it one of those cases where you might look back & wonder if? Do what you want? What will you lost if you do it?<P>Just questions but whatever your answers know that there are prayers & thoughts coming your way.<P>

terri:<P>This is not meant to come across as mean as it may seem at fiirst glance, but... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... or maybe my instincts, which I have trusted all along, telling me what to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where has trusting those instincts gotten you so far?<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Not divorced yet, and not at odds in a hostile relationship with the man I love ... as so many of the separated here are. I am not being argumentative, but I just have trouble seeing where Plan B gets me - there is nothing to miss that he hasn't already had all the opportunity in the world to miss. We have no children for him to miss... I really think that there isn't much a childless couple has to hold them together in something like this. I know people here say how "Plan B isn't possible" when you have children, but I disagree. It is possible and it is powerful. It is not so powerful when there are no children. Tell me what it is that he could miss that he hasn't had the opportunity to miss already? Convince me... The more I read about affairs, and saving marriages, the less hope I have for my childless marriage. People say "Well, it's so lucky that you don't have kids. You can just walk away." Uh-uh. It rips your heart out just as surely.<P>Sorry ... having a bad night ... not feeling well, and becoming convinced that I am permanently dependent on my anti-depressants, since I dissolve into a puddle of despondent stupidity when I run out of them. And it doesn't help that I just had a terrible scare. I was watching the XFiles and a promo for the news came on... they were talking about a fatal car crash in the town between here and where he is living. I had to sit and watch until I heard who it was that was killed. At least I won't know about fatal car crashes in Florida...<P>Seriously, maybe more people than just I can benefit from the top ten reasons to go to Plan B... Hit me with your best shot.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>I dont know about the list. I am in the same childless situation and I sometimes feel the same way as you that there is little to hold him to me or bring him back. But I do not have what you have either... a H that seems to want and need to talk to me. There is something you give him that he can not get from anyone else or he would not still be calling you and keeping up contact after all this time.<P>If you go to plan B he will really see what it is like after the divorce. He will have a chance to see when he wants to call you and can't. Or maybe you plan to always be there for him even after the divorce? I read that article someone posted the other day.. stop your divorce and it suggests you even go so far as to say, I want our marrige to work, but you are right, it is imposible. I will help you to move out or what ever. He swears that will turn things around and your spouse will start argueing with you on how it is not impossible. I dont think it will work in all cases, but I do think you Hthinks you will be there for him.. no matter what. Maybe he meeds to know that you do have conditions. That if he moves with sluglet you will no longer be his safe place to fall.<BR>Lora

Gee, Lora, maybe we should exchange phone numbers... while you were posting on my thread, I was posting on yours. You make a good point, except he doesn't seem to need to talk to me anymore. Although that may just be my distorted view at the moment... he hasn't called for no good reason in a long time. <P>Part of me wants to just 'lambaste' him real good - let him know that what he sees is what he gets with slug... but I know that he is not going to pay attention to that. Oh well, perhaps he just needs to find out on his own.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>Great minds think alike and all that? <P>Dont you just hate it when you want to tell him not to call and the jerk just wont call?<P>Cant you see me calling him and saying.. oh by the way dont call any more. Then calling back and saying did you call? I told you not to call anymore. LOL Of course maybe my telling him not to call would make him want to call. God knows my telling him to stop going out with OW made him go out more with OW. Did that make sense?<BR>Lora

Terri, I thought I would ansewer here again instead of on my post. I dont know, you have seen signs that all is not paradise in slugland. I think you should just keep being patient awhile longer. <P>Of course even when things end with OW, I dont think my H will have to strength to come back to the marriage and rebuild.<P>I have been singing along loudly and out of key with Cher on her song.. Life after love. Have you heard it? I think she wrote it for me. <BR>Lora

Lora/terri<P>Sorry if i am butting in here but i just wanted to share with you that we are also witout children - H has two sons from previous marriage. One is not much younger than OW !! I just dont know what to do about Plan A/Plan b anymore. I went to Plan B in November. Then agreed to H's request to keep in contact ver Christmas and New Year. thought maybe he was trying to "escape" OW and decided to be here for him but continued to live apart. Went back to Plan B late january when I discovered OW was still in the picture (but now an EA - not PA). we agreed to "talk" at the end of January re divorce and sale of house etc. He invited me to lunch. Very pleasant - good fun in fact. BUT not a word was mentioned about anything to do with our situation. And for the past two weeks has been in contact very regularly. Sends e-mails, press clippings, leaves messages on my phone, made a special effort to come via the airport one day to catch me for 10 minutes in transit. I rarely call him - only about household administration - but I have been Plan A big way when we are together. And he seems to enjoy it. Suddenly i havent heard from him for three days. <P>I rather suspect that he really intended to tell me "the end" when he inivited me to lt lunch but we were having such a pleasant time he didnt. And now maybe he has got in a bind again (maybe OW LB'd??) - and he is backing right off. So, I am getting on with my life post optimistic week or two. <P>I feel a bit fragile. Do I push the issue or just let it drift a bit ?? It is like he put his toe in the water and then got scared. Sometimes I just think he has not got the courage (or emotional strength) to commit himself to the hard work of recovery. <P>Anyway that is enough - I butted in on your thread but your words sounded so familiar to my feelings that I took the opportunity to try and clarify my thoughts by "chatting" to you. <P>R

You’ve just been playing the game to his tune the whole way. No, you may not have been contacting him as much, but you’ve made it clear you’re always available to him should he “miss” you, or need to get a quick EN booster the slug isn’t capable of giving. Your fear is keeping you petrified, and letting him call all the shots. “Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.”<P>It just pains me to see you, who did as much or more research into relationships and affair recovery as I did paralyzed by fear into making the same mistakes as someone hours or days after recovery. You asked for advice, and I have none to give. I think it’s too late; your window for saving your marriage has been firmly painted shut for over a year. He’ll be gone in a month, and your time for Plan B just doesn’t have enough of a chance to work the way it’s supposed to. Of course, when he moves you’ll effectively be in Plan B... the same way Chris is. Again, by HIS schedule.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited February 12, 2001).]

Terri:<P>In my view, plan B could really help you. I doubt that it will bring your husband back, but it will set YOU free. At this point in time, that is what's important. Plan B forces you to focus on your own life without any involvement from your husband at all. I predict that once you do this, you will discover that you have better choices available than to live under the control of someone else's actions (or inaction more appropriately).<P>It's scary to let go but it can be done. I can't tell you what a relief it has been for me. If I can help you in any way, feel free to e-mail me.<p>[This message has been edited by Distressed (edited February 12, 2001).]

IMHO, Terri must follow her OWN path and follow her OWN heart in this and all matters.<P>NO ONE knows what God has in store for any of us, or what the "right" path is to get us there.<P>ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD.<P>And, we are to keep our eyes on God...NOT our circumstances.<P>No matter how a dismal a situation may seem, from an earthly perspective...it has absolutely no bearing on God's ability to turn things around, in the blink of an eye.<P>There is no order of miracles, everything is possible for God.<P>Terri believes with all her heart and soul in her marriage and in the power of LOVE. And, there is no more powerful energy than LOVE...GOD IS LOVE.<P>Clearly her H still, despite his actions, has very deep feelings for her, and a continuing need to stay connected to her. There is still a very alive, vital and powerful connection between them.<P>I don't know if Terri even believes in a Higher Power. But, she certainly does believe in perseverance and the power of love.<P>Since I am still "standing" for my marriage, even after being "legally" divorced for 4 years, I certainly do understand why Terri hasn't given up hope of her marriage being restored one day.<P>I walk a very unpopular and narrow path, b/c I believe that marriage is a lifetime commitment, and that a divorce does not void the sacred vows I took. So I have chosen to continue to honor my vows. It is what is right for me.<P>I believe that God will restore my marriage, in His time...not mine. If I "move on" with my life (which seems to only mean, finding another man), as is the popular advice, then I end any chance that my marriage will ever be restored. One of the marriage partners, has to wait...and since my xH obviously isn't...then it must be me.<P>I may be "standing," but, I also have a very full and happy life. And, no one knows that I am "standing" for my marriage, as it is not supposed to be discussed, and my personal decision to stand is not open to a vote.<P>I don't know if Terri is "standing" for her marriage or not. But, she certainly has to honor her heart.<P>Clearly Terri does NOT choose to "move on" with her life. And, it is also clear, to me at least, that she is NOT just sitting around waiting for her H. She is living her life to the fullest. She is busy and active, and is doing all she can to be happy.<P>If people suggest that she is not getting the most out of life b/c she hasn't moved onto another man, then I'd say that is a very sorry statement. <P>A man is NOT what makes anyone's life complete. We all must learn to be whole unto ourselves. <P>Terri, <P>I think that you have lots of reason to KNOW that Frank DOES still love you very much. But, his personal journey home may still be a long way off. He may have more to learn from his relationship with this creature he is still with. <P>You need to decide if you have the stamina and the faith to stay the course. My money would be on you.<P>I don't know if you'd be interested in finding out more about "standing." But, here are 2 wonderful sites. They have fabulous books and tapes. These people are like-minded and believe in marriage.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org./" TARGET=_blank>http://www.restorem.org./</A> visit their daily letters, in particular.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.rejoiceministries.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.rejoiceministries.org/</A> <P>Good luck and stay your own course!<P>~skye~<P>

Terri-<BR>I have conflicting thoughts on your dilema. I understand those that say Plan B- it has been a long time for you.<P>But, on the other hand, I also know that his upcoming move is probably pretty scary for you. I think I would go for it. He's moving in a month or two. I like the idea of coming up with something for his birthday that would have special meaning for the 2 of you.<P>Some gifts that my H has really appreciated since we've been separated (keep in mind that he is still gone)are:<P>H once told me that when he was feeling really confused, it helped him to write his feelings. So, for Christmas, I gave him a journal. On the first page, I wrote a short message about using the journal for his deepest thoughts. I wrote it on paper- not the cover so he could tear it out if he wanted to.<P>Once, when we were going through some old pictures, he said that he particularly liked a few of them that were in our photo album. I didn't really want to give them up, so I took them out, took them to WalMart, and made copies of them. Then I put them in one of those frames that holds about 6-8 pictures and gave it to him. These were mainly pictures of the kids when they were younger, but also had some pictures of friends and hobbies,etc. He has it hanging on his bedroom wall. There is one family picture in it- I'm sure OW just loves that!<P>One day just before Christmas, while I was shopping, I came across a small book. It was kind of like one of those pocket size Chicken Soup for the Soul books, but was on friendship. I wrote a little message about his friendship being important to me and gave it to him. He keeps it on his bedside table and actually had tears in his eyes when I gave it to him. He told me later that expressing these sentiments has never really been my strong point, but he remembers that part of me from our dating days and has missed it tremendously in the last few years.<P>I don't know if any of these can help you- and do remember that my H is not home, so I don't know that it has been the right thing to do, but he has told me how much he appreciates these things.

Hi Terri,<BR>I lurk for the most part in this forum. I have the quote you use for your sig file taped to my monitor. For what it's worth, perhaps you'll find some encouragement in my story. My H might be using a tin cup someday too. We have no kids. And unless the garden counts as an OW, there's no affairs either. Our marriage turned into an emotional wasteland over the years. I burst into tears once watching a show about tornadoes. A woman lost her H, and she was talking about how much she missed him. I imagined my H surviving a tornado. I pictured him missing the roof over his head and the food in his mouth, but not me. My H treats me with such indifference and disregard that I believed a tornado could sweep me away and he wouldn't miss me. I haven't been a happy camper! <P>I found MB after following a steady diet of LBs for a couple of years. Plan A made things more tolerable on the surface, but my heart was withering into dust. It seemed like my H was satisfied as long as our outward appearance resembled a happy marriage. What we had was an empty shell that was collapsing. I thought Plan b was outside my grasp due to marital problems manifesting themselves in a financial disaster. Then I realized a friend was out of town for an extended period. I asked him if I could stay at his place during his absence, and he said yes without hesitation. I had a place to stay! <P>That was the beginning of my version of Plan B. It was never a "no contact" situation. And it was only temporary. It was a time for me to do some major first aid on my dying spirit. This shouldn't have been a surprise to my H, but it was. I told him the status quo is over. I've been patient to the point that it is a fault for my words to have an effect. My words don't seem to penetrate his consciousness, so maybe my actions will. I told him when he's ready to LISTEN to what I have to say, he should let me know. Christmas came and went. So did New Years. I gave up on him. <P>Like the quote from Emerson says, it takes courage to map out a plan of action. I was at a crossroads. I didn't feel particularly courageous, but I at least recognized the need for a map. I started visualizing a future without him. I didn't allow myself to worry about him living under a bridge, collecting his retirement in a tin cup. That's HIS problem, not mine. I still feel heartless saying that, but I carry his burdens too readily, and it's a huge mistake. But I digress.<P>I can't recall the exact moment I reached my decision. In retrospect, it seems to be the precise moment my H started coming around. We had dinner that weekend, and afterwards, he truly listened to what I had to say. I touched on just a couple of things. His financial responsibilities seemed to be a good place to start. Two weeks later, he was faithfully making effort toward change. Then I dropped the other shoe and told him money is the least of our problems. Increasing his income isn't going to heal our marriage. I asked him to join me in marriage counselling (I started in November). He agreed! I thought I'd never see the day. <P>At this point, I'm the one with the hardened heart. I had reached a decision that it was over. I'm not convinced this marriage will survive. Here it is six weeks later, and my H hasn't been this nice since we were single. He's really really trying. It's remotely possible that we will be a success story someday. <P>Terri, I haven't kept up with each of your threads, but I know you've been around here for a while. I hope there's something new you can try that will give you some peace of mind. I hope that my very loosely constructed plan b will give you an idea for something new.

I don't have the time to respond thoroughly right now, but wanted to say thank you to all of you who have written. I'll try to read all of your responses again tomorrow and write again!<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hello Terri--<P>I am very new to this site and I have read Dr. Harley's book His Needs/Her Needs and talked about it with my pastor. I haven't seen all of your postings, which lead up to your most recent one, but I have some thoughts (which may have been said in other postings.)<P>I feel for you and how terrible this has to be. The feelings must be very hard to live with every day. I have some thoughts though on taking care of you, which is, in my opinion, very important right now. You may be already doing things to take care of yourself, and if you are, I am glad for you.<BR>The things I say here may be elementary to what you've already talked with others about, but I thought I would tell you if it helps.<P>I can see that you might be thinking of him in most of your time, and I am wondering how he might respond if you simply do things to take care of you, to make yourself happy, and yet continue to treat him warmly. Sometimes, when men and women are seen by their spouses as doing well, especially taking care of themselves (ie walks, bubble baths, maybe the haircut they've been wanting, delving into good books from the library or seeing friends) it does something to you, which does something to the errant spouse. Some spouses then want to be a part of that, and your being warm to them too may cause them to possibly take a look in a new way. I also believe prayer is essential, and some good books to help with that too are by author Charles Stanley, and they can be found at any Christian bookstore. They are called "How To Listen To God" and "God Has An Answer for Our Unmet Needs." They are fabulous and really help us to turn it over to the Big Guy to take care of for us.<P>I can only imagine how your energy must be zapped with this, and maybe taking a small step may be helpful to further caring for yourself. Taking care of yourself may help you to alleviate some of the pain. Sometimes, if you are taking care of yourself, remain warm to him, and yet not discuss the marriage or hints of other things, he may become intrigued and possibly see the things in you he initially fell in love with. He has a history with you, and that works in your favor too. I think the most powerful things you can do would be to totally give it to God, detach in love, and take care of yourself. To detach in love means to still love him, but to the best of your ability, not allow this to hurt you anymore. You will be a "creature unlike any other," and you'll have the strength and power of the Big Guy behind you. By being that "creature unlike any other," you can feel more confident in your standing as a person, and always remember that you are desirable in many ways. <P>I hope I haven't offended you with all the talk of God, but I believe the most powerful Being that ever was can take care of it all.<P>All the best-- Marina

There is a lot of good food for thought in this thread. I think Terri's poem says it all, "To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage." None of us knows what will become of our marriages, none of us even knows what the best possible outcome would be anyway. I know we all wish the pain we are in would end. Some seem more sure of their path than others. I am one of the unsure. I read the Plan B arguments and they make sense, then I read the arguments to continue Plan A and they make equal sense. My mind runs in crazy circles as well. I know my friends worry about me and because they see me hurting, they are very angry at my H. This makes me feel justified, but is no more real than his long list of resentments to justify his current behavior. I need to recognize my own part in what has happened for my own sake, no matter the outcome. I too am always weighing the possible outcomes of every action, especially since H seems to do the same. Both of us end up blaming me!<P>BTW, there are children but none biological, H's son (just two years younger than OW) and his sister's kids (we're their legal guardians).