It has been a bit since I posted, but now I am back probing your brilliant minds for a few answers that I am having a tough time finding on my own.<P>In talking with H, he told me that he never considered what he did an 'affair'. He asked me what one was - I told him basically any feeling or action that you have with another person that is not your spouse (ie emotional/ physical attachment that causes you to exclude your spouse or brings on hiding things, lying etc).<BR>All which he did multiple times. He also told me that he feels no responsibility for it, or for hurting me or jeopardizing our family because he felt that I was not there for him and there was no 'us'. (he has since decided that there really was an us, but that is another story). I told him that I guess it doesn't matter what you call it, that actions and the results are the same. So what is a good definition? I know I have seen them here, but coudln't really come up with a good one on the spot.<P>Also, behavior...what is common behavior for a WS to exhibit (if there is any)? My H just seems to be watching life go by. He says that he is happy, but when I ask WHAT makes him happy he changes the subject. I told him I just want to hear about him from him, and he just doesn't seem to want to talk. He said that it just takes time for these things and that you don't have to work to build a good relationship it just happens. I disagree. I told him that love needs to be fed and nurtured just like anything else or it dies.<P>I don't know what to do with him. He seems to think that everything is fine and willing to just go on with life, but I feel worn out and about to the end of my rope because I feel like I am doing all the giving and he is TAKING big time. <P>Given the OW has only been out of the picture for about 3 mths now. Or at least I think she is...is this type of behavior and thinking 'normal'? <P>Also when we talk he has a way of referring to the past to try to make his point...how can I counteract this? And why is he doing it? Is it because it worked before to make me feel bad and feel responsible for things<BR>so it shifts the feelings from him to me? I don't know, maybe it is time to go back to the counselor as a couple.<P>I am just so tired of feeling alone, and vulnerable and used. And when I try to tell him that he brings up the past and how I never knew what I wanted etc or interrupts me with some negative comment and does not let me finish talking. I just don't know what to do at this point.<P>HELP!

Good questions! I've thought quite a bit about that "I thought there wasn't an us anymore" excuse as I've heard it many times. In some cases I think it might be a bit of a mitigator, if it was shared at the time the feeling arose instead of when one has already acted upon those feelings. To use that as a post discovery excuse is fine to help explain to the betrayed spouse the mind set that WS was in at the time, but to not follow that up with some kind of apology for not sharing that information upon the epiphany is unjustifiable.<P>For many of us here it seems that knowledge prior to the beginning of and affair would have made a radical difference. <P>Just watched a good friend of mine fall into the same trap. He knows my whole story and I did my best to warn him. Told him that whatever he needs to do that honesty with his wife is the best way to go. He responded with the "If I were really married I would but I haven't felt married in a long time. I'm sure she already knows ". He had the crazy eyes and was bouncing off the walls when he said it. This morning over coffee, he asked me to cover his alibi for his where abouts last night till 12. I couldn’t do it. I was sorry and it's nothing personal (in fact I dislike his wife as well) but it's just not right. He went on to tell me that "This way his wife will think getting divorced is her idea and it'll be better that way". My response was to the effect of OK if that’s your strategy then go see her at work right now and let her know what you just did, I'm sure that will be enough to get the job done. No reason to continue destroying her or your moral foundation. It's just sick to watch a good person fall. Thank God he has no children.<P>If you don’t mind, I'd like to add a related question to your post. What is it with the WS thinking we have ESP about "there is no us anymore"? Seems we were supposed to pick that one up on the airwaves when the meanness and accusations start flowing. Reminds me of the old Lassie or Flipper episodes; <P>Timmy's Father to Timmy - "What's flipper trying to tell us Timmy?"<P>Timmy to Flipper - "Flipper, What's wrong?"<P>Flipper to Timmy - "clickity, click, squeal…whiz bang pop pop click with a twisting flip"<P>Timmy to Father- "Oh no dad, Flipper says mom wants to leave us and she's skinny dipping with someone else"<P>Father - "You're right Timmy, let's get in the boat and follow Flipper"<P>Sorry, didn't mean to get carried away…Just another Manic Monday.<P>Mike<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited February 19, 2001).]

Hi Victoria,<P>My definition of an affair: a relationship with another person (no matter how brief) in which you engage in feelings and behaviors that you would not want your spouse to see or know about.<P>What concerns me about your husband's comments and behaviors is that they sound EXACTLY like the things my husband said and did. I THOUGHT we were recovering, but we actually weren't and soon he was involved in the affair again. <P>Counseling is in order for the two of you, and if your husband will not participate, do it yourself. I highly recommend Steve Harley. Your recovery needs to be an equal partnership, and your husband absolutely must face the truth and accept his share of the responsibility for the two of you to be able to survive this.<P>I wish you the best.<P>Peppermint

Hello,<P> Same as above. My H still (occasionaly) denies he even had an A. They did not engage in SEX. Just talking, some kissing, holding, he touched her boob, but she pushed his hand away. So just because he wanted, and tried to get it, she turned him down. So not a real A. <P> Wow H ruined our 20 year marriage for a friend. Nice friend he was.<P> Sorry,got carried away on your post.<P> As for how they act, they start fights, go back in history so they can blame you (computer brains), but they can not seem to remember much about thie recent activities, lie, deny, minimize, maximize, recreate history, tell you about all of your flaws,<BR> you can't ruin someones marriage if there isn't one, ( news to us) the list goes on.<P> My H also was not seeing or talking to OW, anymore either. Another lie. H continued contact and sneaking to see her, for App: 5 more months. <P>So sorry about your pain and total confusion it is perfectly normal, under the circumstances.<P><P>------------------<BR>Deb

I think the Harleys say something like an affair is anything the BS thinks is an affair. So if you feel betrayed, your WS needs to accept your feelings about it.<P>My H doesn't consider his relationship with OW to be an affair either. He thinks we "broke up" and he moved in with her. Only problem is, I didn't know we were breaking up and, as far as I know, we're still legally married...<P>I was glad to read everyone's descriptions of WS's behavior because I didn't realize that others do what my H is doing (I'm still pretty new here). I'm in Plan B and my H spends his time away from me writing long lists of my faults and things I did wrong back through our entire 19 yr. relationship. Since August, 4 months before he moved out and while I was still unaware of A, he verbally abused me about things in my past, even things I did before I met him! Now that he can't talk to me about it anymore, he tells anyone who will listen (which isn't many) what an "evil" person I am. <P>Even though I know it's not true, it still gets me every time. He says he still loves me and doesn't want to hurt me and then calls me "evil" and reads to them from his 50 page list of evil things I've supposedly done to him.<BR>

Dear victoria farrar:<BR>Here are my thoughts, but remember, I'm "crazy".<P>1. An affair happens when the OP is more fun to be with than your spouse; when you stay late at work talking, and forget how much time has passed, and finally get on the road late. <P>2. An affair is when the OP listens and gives advice to you about your spouse, for problems in your marriage, your sex life, your relationship, or the spouse's personal issues. This presupposes that you do not have your spouse's permission to talk to the OP about these issues.<P>3. An affair gradually displaces the spouse. Invitations that once included spouse and children gradually only include the spouse.<P>4. Personal gifts, sometimes costly, are discretely exchanged between the WS and the OP. Gifts are not exchanged between the spouse of the OP and the BS. Gifts are not exchanged between the OP and the BS. <P>5. Lunches and dinners between spouse and OP are a regular occurrence. THere is no corresponding social contact between BS and OP. <P>6. The relationship between WS and OP has a life of its own, completely excluding the faithful partner.<P>7. The OP never calls the house anymore; all contact is made on the cell phone or to WS's office or by e-mail through work computers. Everybody feels sorry for the BS because he/she is so PARANOID, so INSECURE, so JEALOUS, all without any reason.<P>8. Though there may never be sexual contact, the emotional energy between the WS and the OP is the battery that drives the life of the WS, it is more important than the marriage.<P>9. The WS rewrites the history of the relationship, citing offenses proving that the spouse never truly loved the WS, thereby justifying his view that the marriage was a sham, and that their feelings toward the OP have nothing to do with the withering of the marriage.<P>10. Secret letters to the OP.<P>11. The office staff comment on how the OP is the only one who isn't intimidated by the BS; how she is able to wisecrack, talk back. Comments on how their back-and-forth never ends! Visiting spouse feels like a kid staring through the window of a candy store, knowing she doesn't have a coin to shop with.<P>12. Sex, kissing, physical contact between WS and spouse gradually decline and finally stop altogether. WS refuses to "talk about sex" except to say that spouse was unsatisfactory and didn't fulfill his needs.<P>Hmm, silly me! I've just written a brief history of my husband's "affair". But like I said, (or like HE said), I'm crazy.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited February 20, 2001).]