I posted this over on the Just Found Out Board, but no one has responded ...<P>The last time I was on this board, I was all excited about my H agreeing to go to counseling with me. It seemed at first that we had made some serious headway. Well, he lied. For those of you that are looking for a brief background - here's the scoop: Almost 3 years ago, I had a PA. It ended after three months pretty much the same way Dr. Harley describes a natural death in SAA. I told him 1 year later, then he engages in a six month PA what I affectionately call a revenge affair. Well, we went to counseling back in October around the same time he engages in another PA. This time with a different OW. I mean it's like BAM!!!! What the heck is this? He sits in counseling staring me dead in the face and says, I'll never do that again. <BR>Last night we went out (pre-discovery) then I became agitated that he was leaving home after we were supposedly having an evening together. I get upset and just left. While we're both out, the OW calls my house! She doesn't leave a message. I try to call him at his friend's house only to find he's not there. I call the number on the ID and a woman (voice unfamilar answers)He wasn't there, I have yet to know who else is involved in this. That's when I find out. After yelling at his friend for lying and trying to place blame on me, I throw all of his things out of the closet, break glasses (remember no one is home but me) in my fit of anger. I then pack up my stuff and trek out to another county to my mom's (hour drive). Now he's back all repenant and *&^%#. (Excuse me, I know this is a family page). He wants me to take him back. My trust is shattered. I thought I could handle it the first time and was wrong, so I sought counseling. This time, I'm not so sure I'll ever be able to trust him again. It seems to be a pattern, if I'm depressed he screws around. I don't get it.<P>Thanks for letting me vent. Here I am 8 months later and have to go through the whole cycle again. Sade has a new song that sums me up right now- King of Sorrow. <P>

vee,<P>I dont have much to give today, but i dont want you to feel like there was no help here today. <P>I have great sorrow for your situation i wish i had some words to help.<P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

Vee,<BR>I can't speak for your situation, but it happened multiple times with my H, too. There were many reasons. None of it was ever dealt with until the last one. He rationalized and justified and I tried to forget about it. Didn't work. Now we are dealing with the underlying issues. Some are about the examples he got from his parents marriage, which he realizes are wrong seeing as the marriage failed, but he didn't know how to correct it. Another reason is the attention factor. When I thought all was well and normal and would "relax" he didn't have enough focus on him. He is in counseling and begining to understand how he creates choas in his life from patterns learned in childhood. Whether it's positive or negative attention, he needs it. <BR>You say PA--does he say there is any emotion involved with these women? My H claims to have had no feelings for any of the OW. He has a deep fear of true intimacy. His A's were a way to distance himself from me when he felt I was too close. It still doesn't make much sense to me but he said when things were going "too good" he ran from his emotions and our closeness by having a PA. <P>None of our progress and/or openness could have happened without him "waking up" so to speak to the damage he was doing. This happened when he knew I was serious and going to leave. <BR>It is possible to put the marriage together again after more than one affair, but only if you are both committed and willing to do the hard work.<BR>Jackie

HI Vee,<BR> OK, deep breaths... Listen, being a guy (a species you probably hate right about now ) Here's a thought. We are VERY competitive. Maybe is a sick way he needed to "win" the battle of the PA's?? I know it's sick but BUT MAYBE??<BR> I'm so competitive that if you spit, I need to spit further (although I won't TELL you while I'm trying) <BR> Maybe NOW, it's over and you guys can move on? When someone asked Jesus "How many times must I forgive lord?" "Seven times?" Jesus said, "Seventy times seven" <BR> Try and consider this an extention and maybe dig a little and make sure you guys are really meeting ALL the needs. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

Jackie -<BR>No emotional needs just the physical. He's not tied to these women. It seems nearly codependent. These women have the lowest self esteem possible. OW # 1 was ugly. I'm sorry but she was. My H is an attractive guy, so she would continually make comments about how he was the best looking guy she ever had. OW #2 - constantly depressed. My depression is totally a result of the problems in the marriage, but hers is all about life, no reason to live, suicidal. <P>I just don't know how to explain any of this, what I know is that he never said to me - I really need for you to do this ... I did exactly what he asked in counseling and now he says he felt like I only did it because I was told to do so. But it was my idea to go to counseling!<P>Please - I'm going to do exactly that. I told him how I felt now about sex after this new discovery and he says what is he supposed to do about his need? That was a big warning sign for me. It means he's going to do it again if I can't be physical with him. I know that's a pessimistic thought but isn't that what it really means. He decided that we'll have an hour everyday to just be by ourselves - we turn off the phones, etc. <P>I've got to figure out the next step, but I don't know how yet. Also on the competition, OW #1 was just that. If you can do it, I can do it too. OW#2, I'm not sure about yet.

Vee, The OW with low self-esteem and depression raised some flags with me. My H's OW were all what he saw as weaker or somehow inferior to him. Therefore he could dominate and to a degree control them. I don't mean sexually. I'm still a little fuzzy myself on this, but I'll try to get the gist of it for you. He was superior to them (in his mind) and this stroked his ego. Made him feel like the knight in shining armor, some kind of superman. But, having been hurt by the people who were supposed to protect him (his parents) the very fact that he didn't care for them meant he could get this feeling about himself without risking any hurt to himself. My H has told me he made the last one feel good about herself. She didn't matter, whether she felt good about herself or not really didn't matter to him--it was that he was able to make her feel that way.<BR>My H also has always felt that I was a stronger person than him. That I didn't need him. He never understood that I chose him out of love and want, not need. <BR>Does your H open up, really open up to you? It can seem like he is even when he really isn't. Do you know his deepest fears because he told you or because you know him so well he didn't have to tell you? There are things I've known about my H for years without anything coming out of his mouth. Now he is begining to be able to tell me these things. It's hard not to say "I knew that". For him this is a new thing to honestly open himself and he is terrified about it (and yes he told me that). One important thing to remember when he does tell you things is to remain calm. If you react negatively or strongly he will more than likely shut down again. If I'm off base just say so. But the PA without any EA was a real hard concept for me and I'd like to help someone else understand it if I can.<BR>Jackie

Jackie -<BR>I think my H sounds a lot like yours. Both women were like that and he has always thought of me as strong and that maybe I wouldn't need him and could actually get on with my life if we split up. Last night I actually talked to him without getting emotional and crying all over the place. He told me that he never really had anyone that showed him that he was important (and like you, I already knew that, but let him talk). His childhood wasn't really one where he was allowed to be a kid. I'm still trying to make sense of this too and I'm not sure if I totally understand yet. <P>But I did tell him that I need to know exactly what he needs. He told me things that I new, but I didn't know that he would like to have sex everyday. Every three days is fine with me, but I'm not going to say oh, that's too frequent. I also asked about whether or not it was totally physical - he said no, but it wasn't tottaly emotional either. He just needed to feel like he was adored by someone. He made a comment about my dislike of taking pictures (pictures were a really big ordeal and my family and just always a big hassle, so I don't liek them much), well the OW #2 (I'm going to call her little miss naive - she's 5 years his junior) put up a picture of the two of them. I still don't get why this is important, but he says that it is. I'm rambling - I'll have to revisit this later. Is it ok if I e-mail you? I could really use some help on trying to understand this PA without a real EA thing. It wasn't like his 1st one, I know he saw her just about daily, this one was very infrequent. It was like he only saw her to meet that one need. I'm totally confused now. I'll post later on.<P>Vee

Yes, of course you can e-mail me. chickieboom29@hotmail.com<P>The emotion thing wasn't emotions FOR or ABOUT her. It was the emotions she made him feel about himself. It had nothing to do with her as an individual--it could've been anybody.<P>Not to pry or bring up bad memories, but does he lie? Very well?<P>You gave him an excuse for the firt affair by calling it a revenge affair. Maybe it was, but even if it wasn't, it gave him something that he knew you'd believe and keep the focus off the real deep stuff within himself that he doesn't want to be seen. I positive the reason my H kept having affairs was because we never addressed the REAL issues behind them.<P>When he does talk to you (great job on staying calm!!! it's hard, I know) try to ask questions without hinting at what you think the answers are. Give him all the time he needs to answer on his own. Listen real close and see if his answers are similar to observations or comments you have made.<P>It sounds like our H's could almost be twins. Mine was never really a kid either, but his father did the same cheating thing and he had an example to follow. When he saw his father in himself and saw that his marriage was destructing just like his parents it finally opened his eyes. <P>Hang in there, try to stay calm. E-mail me anytime. I'm a stay at home mom and I'm on the computer throughout the day (naps and such.) {{{{{{{{{Vee}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>Jackie

Hey -<BR>I'll do that. I plan on paying very close attention to what he has to say this time. By the way - you've got mail!<P>Thanks!<BR>Vee

Jackie and Vee,<BR>I related to both your situations. My H "rescued" OW from her abusive H (while he was verbally abusing me). She is young, overweight, unfeminine, and unattractive (I've heard her described in less flattering terms), but she NEEDED him. H also seems to think I'm stronger, or maybe more emotionally healthy, than him (you wouldn't believe it the way I'm feeling/acting now!). I'm now in Plan B and he's carrying around Plan B letter, reading his favorite part to people in which I listed the traits I admire in him. He wants to know why I never told him sooner and he thinks I'm just saying it now to manipulate him. Looking back, neither of us was very good at compliments. We just assumed too much. I think his A is more EA as Jackie said, not emotion for or about her but how it makes him feel about himself.

LetSTry, My H OW were very needed or played it well, too. What really chapped my a$$ about the last one was that she was 10 years older than me and very masculine. If you asked my H what type of woman he is attracted to he would always go for the "girly-girl" ones. But when he cheated he picked the other kind. Just goes to my point that it wasn't really about her or sex, but how she/them made him feel about himself. Or maybe he was looking for my opposite to further distance himself from closeness and true intimacy with me. I have never been what I call the "weak-sister" type, clingy, needy, whiney, or the "cheerleader". Sure I compliment my H when he's done something but to just "rah-rah You're the best" just because he called or showed up-that I don't do. Maybe it's an LB or an EN that I just won't or can't fulfill, maybe he's just been too self-centered. In either case, we're working on it. <BR>He's actually reading your letter to other people? Is he reading the whole thing or just the part about how great he is/was?

It seems like we have an awful lot in common! I can't figure out what the heck is so hard about them saying "I really need you to do this for me because it's really important to me". Why is it they can't just open up their big mouths and say that?! I asked my H that and he says I did. I'm like when? It always sounded like you were joking. For instance he says - man we only have sex once a period. Ok - that's not true, but if you know him, it sounds like a joke. whatever happened to - I need to talk to you about something that's bothering me. When he asked me to do that after my affair - heck I did. Whenever something bothered me, I told him. Did he change - no, or if he did, it was short-lived. Speaking of that, I think we need to have a little Q&A session tonite. I've got a ton of things to talk about.<P>But again it seems like it is all about them. They needed someone to make them feel good, stroke their egos so they could go home. He mentioned that once he got what he wanted, he just wanted to come home, but couldn't because this chick was so suicidal, she'd probably kill herself. Now is this true? Who in the heck knows. But I'm telling you it's about to drive me up a wall. <P>Look at me - I was calm now I'm upset. I need some food or something. <P>Lets - I wonder why he's reading your letter too. Maybe he's thinking - wow I've got two women fighting over me? I don't know it's just a random thought.

Vee, You've got mail--with answers in it!!!<BR>Jackie

Not to overload ya or anything but another thing to check out is narcissitic personality disorder. Basically the need to be worshiped and adored. I've been too busy with the other stuff to persue this one, yet.

I'm not overloaded! Please all the info I can get is great! Where can I find info on that?

Vee, not sure. As soon as my kids are asleep (sick and naptime is rough), I'll check some of my books but in the meantime try the library or any search engine under psychological or sociological problems/issues. <BR>Jackie

Vee & Jackie,<BR>Good observation. I hadn't thought of that, but yes, he does seem focused on the admirable qualities, and I've got to say, I laid it on a little thick there to get his attention. <P>He blames his A on his belief, based on reading my old journals, that I loved an old boyfriend more than I ever loved him. H and I have been together 19 yrs. I haven't seen or heard from old b.f., who I broke up with, in over 20 yrs. I wrote much more explicitly about old b.f. because I was younger, didn't see him much, etc. My H can't get over this. Plus and more importantly, H is alcoholic/drug addict who has relapsed after almost 10 yrs clean and sober.

Lets -<P>I read up on it. I meant to post the website where I found some info along with a book written on it that is actually online ....<BR> <A HREF="http://www.cyberis.net/~jouster/zoom/npd.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.cyberis.net/~jouster/zoom/npd.html</A> <P>It seems to be to me that this sounds like my H. He's in constant need of knowing he's attractive, etc. He made a comment last night about people needing their egos stroked. I asked him not to use "people", but if it were something that he needed, he should just say so. I'm wondering if part of this to feel threatened by your spouse if they have something that you feel like you lack? (I'm rambling on this one, if it makes sense let me know) What if he felt threatened by knowing that someday I would probably earn a heck of a lot more than him? I've got a job offer pending that nearly doubles my current salary. It's almost a done deal, I just have to wait to be appointed by the city council. My H hasn't finished his undergrad degree yet and still has almost 2 1/2 years to go on it. Me - I'm 24 (will be 25 in April) and will get my masters in May. I'm now planning on a long range goal of getting started on my Ph.D. in the next 5 years or so, with my ultimate goal to teach at a research institution. Could it be that he feels out of place not being able to see where he hopes to be headed in the next 5 years? He's happy for my success, but I wonder if it's not more of a poblem than he lets on? Could it be that my being abosrbed in my next steps make him feel like I have no place for him? I don't get this one, I've got to keep thinking about it.<P>But - I find that my H does have about three of the traits they list on this website. They say that 5 is the defining number, but could 3 imply that you are borderline for the disorder?

Vee,<BR>I clicked and bookmarked that page but only read the first page with the traits. I'm no professional but if 5 is then 3 could be borderline. Yes, your reasoning makes sense to me. You have clearly defined goals and long term concrete plans to attain those goals. Although he probably is very happy for you, he could very well feel "left out" or "lost". Now, I'm not man-bashing here but I think most men still want to be the A number 1 bread-winner, the undisputed "man of the house", the top of the ladder type thing. You are threatening to him if he views things this way. This doesn't mean to shelve your plans or make yourself smaller in any way! You both need to work on this and talk, talk, talk TOGETHER about his feelings. Keep up the "safe place" for discussion. He probably won't want to admit, especially to a strong woman, that he prefers to be top dog in any way. He chose what he saw as "inferior" women to cheat with, right? He sees you as superior, instead of equal. Just my opinion, based on my own H's answers. My H saw me as smarter, emotionally more together (yeah, right, that's why I'm having anxiety attacks and need meds!), and just more moral than he was. This is what I was talking about when I said the "real" inside of them. I thought he was proud of me and my accomplishments until he started truly opening up. He was proud, but threatened, too. He thought feeling that way was backwards and "cave-man" mentality. I probably would've told him that very thing, had it come up in another type of conversation or when I was younger. Men still need us to need them. For so very long we needed them for protection and as providers. Now that we can take care of ourselves, they are left to wonder what we need them for. Mine still has a little trouble with that I chose him rather than need him. <BR>Lets,<BR>Is he back on the wagon or in a program again? It's so hard to give in this situation, but try to go out of your way to show him security with you. I used to think the jealousy over old bf's was cute and flattering, but not given what I know about his self-esteem now. I see it in hindsight as a giant red-flag representing his fears.<P>Why can't they see that choosing them out of love is so much better than needing them? And if they see us as so strong and together, then we must've seen something pretty darn fabulous about them to chose them in the first place?<BR>Jackie

Thanks for the link for narcissistic personality disorder. Sounds like my H.<P>How's he going to like it when he finds out that today I took over the company we own from him for fiscal irresonsibility, appointed myself President and Secretary, changed the keys at work and at home, changed all bank accounts, changed P.O. Box and he's being served next week with separation papers? Next I have to cancel all our credit cards, cut off the charge accts we have with all the stores in town. The OW is buying groceries and charging them to the business.<P>Jackie, No H is not sober, though he says he's learned how to drink normally now. You're right, the jealousy over old boyfriends is definately not cute, it's crazy and scary. No matter how many times I or anyone points out to my H that I married him, not the old b.f. and that I love him it remains meaningless. <BR>