I havent responded to these types of posts in the past but i feel like maybe i have something to contribute.<P>do you remember when you first dressed in a way to get your girlfriends to notice you? sound off topic? hear me out. sometime around maybe the 3rd or 4th grade i remember girls starting to change the way they dressed from what their mothers wanted to what they wanted (my sons in 4th grade and this still seems to hold true) i can still remember Kristina Law$$$ and Karen Yab#$% from the 3rd grade and how beautiful i and all my friends thought they were, one with long blonde hair and pink sweaters the other with shoulder length black hair and pleated skirts. anyway they were dressing to impress each other and so the training of all the boys in class began. one by one each of the girls began to dress in a way that did nothing but beg for other to "Look at ME" and we did. <P>for the majority of a mans formative years girls do thier best to get boys, and girls for that matter, to admire and maybe in an innocent way desire them. and it works. so then the tourture begins... "look at me look at me dont you just wish you could have me" at that young age there is no intention on girls parts to do anything but recieve the attention of their peers, boys and girls. but believe me the training has begun. <P>boys notice the change, and they learn well to notice because if you notice you get strokes from the girls (even mom). so you start to notice all girls and how they primp and prepare themselves for the world. and then when you actually begin to realize what a girl really is... they make themselfs un-attainable. girls dont make themselves availible to you they want the older boy, your still a child to them you were just playing with a GI joe weren't you?<P>the cycle continues on and on woman continue to via for the attentions of men, and throughout thier lives men continue to not have any real access for some time to come they have already envisioned in their minds over and over what it would be like just to be around that particular girl. even if its not sexual yet... <P>so the training starts very young and men during the most formative of times in thier lives have only the images of the girls in thier minds maybe a picture or a magazine ad catches their attention, and you know what they have about the same amount of access to the girls in the picture as they do to the ones in their lives. <P>so the movie in their heads become more and more sophisticated, men fulfull an important need with the images in their head and what the see everyday. as men continue to grow and gain a greater appretiation for the female form, and sexuality become an instinctive part of their lives. horomones hit and they dont even consciensly know what hit them. they are drawn to women in new way driven by nature. <P>Then the conflict begins.. that natural desire is "BAD" good boys and girls dont do that stuff so the self control begins. does that diminish the desire? no! does it make it an even greater couriosity? oh yea!<BR>can you explore this subject openly with anyone? no. not your friends, not your parents not anyone so your left to explore this on your own, in hiding.<P>so the hiding begins. its not good or right to be interested in women this way, (even though it is completely natural) you are told again and again not to indulge what is seemingly natural. and you get satisfaction just entertaining the idea in your head what would it be like to kiss this girl or that, that kiss grows and grows, what would it be like to have that girl care about me? how would it be if she was as inamored with me as i am with her. each girl begins to have a different draw some nurturing, some purely sexual and everything in between.<P>men have learned to satisfy their most primal of needs without relying on women to be physically or emotionally involved at all.<BR>and we learn that we have to hide that fact. <P>this behaviour becomes a mainstay in our lives it becomes a way to stimulate our minds and explore ourselves without infringing on others. we train our minds and body's to respond favorably to visual cues both in real life and in images.<P>Porn comes in a wide variety and each individual explores it to different level depending on what events shape their lives, just as some people have experimented in real life with extreams so to do images that satisfy that couriosity exist. to others, the womans section ( not just the bra and panty section) of the sears catalog served the purpose just fine for me.<P>Out into the world we send these men trained from the youngest of ages that Women want them to look at them and that they want to be desired by them, we offer up a variety of selection second to none, and we ask of men to select one. only one. and we remind them constently that they should only want one.<P>but women continue to display themselves to the world "look at me, Look at me" and men continue to see them and desire them, the thing that diferentiates humans from most other spieces on earth (besides silverware) is that we make the conscience decision to select a lifes mate. we choose to be faithful and have only that one mate forever. does that in any way change the nature of men, or women for that matter? <P>I submit that it does not, that men and women still see and seek the attention of those around them. but with the recognition that it is only appropriate to recieve that special kind of attention from the person they selected for life forsaking all others.<P>i further submit that the reminder of attention by others toward you and your desire for them is healthy and promotes self esteem, what is not healthy is any actions that indulge it.<P>so here we are traind to stimulate our minds and bodies with the visual cues that are ever present for us and without permission to indulge them. so we hide it. its not ok to look at a woman who stimulates us in the presence of our spouse because it is wrong or insulting, we are not allowed to view that same woman if our spouse isnt there because if she discovers it we have again wronged our spouse. so you hide it. you hide what is now such an integrated part of your life that you are not sure how not to do it. <P>why is it that way? because we breed ourselves this way we train our boys to look and then scold them for doing it.<P>I can tell you that when my marriage is healthy that when i am looking at the dress on the girl at the mall, i am envisoning how my wife would look in it. how would it be to have my wife dress that way to please me. I also indulge in porn to the same extent, what would it be like to have my wife do that for me? this is not to say that i dont imagine for the sake of self gratification what it might be like to be with that other woman, but the reality is that they are no more availible to me now then they have ever been, only now the reason isnt because they arent or wouldnt be interested, its because i have commited my heart to only one and i want her to fullfill that part of my EN's for me.<P>so we venture forward into our lives together and we seek to fulfill the EN's of our spouses but guess what the level of need in all areas of our lives varies significantly, i need more of this you need more of that, and sometiems we can meet those need somtimes we cant, there is a variable nature to all of these does the fact that my wife is sexually fullfilled have any bearing on whether i am? not at all, does the fact that i indulge in the viewing of other women mean that i am not interested in my wife being the sole person fullfilling me that way? not at all. for me it means that i have a EN, and its not always about sex by the way sometimes its affection or admiration that is low that i find easy to satisfy by doing what i was trained to do from the youngest of age. Play the movie in my head.<P>if i have any advice to offer, it is that we have trained our men to nurture themselves this way, that the best thing you can do is to embrace the practice, participate, find out what need he is fullfilling this way and id be willing to bet that a few things will happen. 1. he will not lie to you about it so you wont get hurt by it. 2. you will know when his EN's arent being met 3. you will find new ways to fulfill those needs that he honestly believes you are not open to.<P>or is it that im an insensitive JERK?<BR>

I read with interest today (haven't been on the site for awhile) your why do i look at women. This is of grave importance for me to understand this because it is ruining my marriage! My husband (for all of our 31 years!) has spent entirely too much time looking at other women. Numerous times - too many to even count. And I'm not talking about just looking - I'm talking about being entirely distracted by them for as long as they remain in view! One time in church (even tho he denies it) he actually removed himself from where the family was standing in order to be able to stare at some chick who came into church with a very short skirt on! He moved so that he was standing behind me - that way he could look all he wanted without my seeing him. Isn't that a bit much? I just don't get it. I'm a pretty attractive woman - work out and keep in shape, we have a terrific sex life - he always tells me that he's so lucky - most guys don't get the amount or quality of sex he gets yet he is so utterly distracted with other women! It is ruining our marriage cause I can't take it any more. Thank you.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B>I havent responded to these types of posts in the past but i feel like maybe i have something to contribute.<P>do you remember when you first dressed in a way to get your girlfriends to notice you? sound off topic? hear me out. sometime around maybe the 3rd or 4th grade i remember girls starting to change the way they dressed from what their mothers wanted to what they wanted (my sons in 4th grade and this still seems to hold true) i can still remember Kristina Law$$$ and Karen Yab#$% from the 3rd grade and how beautiful i and all my friends thought they were, one with long blonde hair and pink sweaters the other with shoulder length black hair and pleated skirts. anyway they were dressing to impress each other and so the training of all the boys in class began. one by one each of the girls began to dress in a way that did nothing but beg for other to "Look at ME" and we did. <P>for the majority of a mans formative years girls do thier best to get boys, and girls for that matter, to admire and maybe in an innocent way desire them. and it works. so then the tourture begins... "look at me look at me dont you just wish you could have me" at that young age there is no intention on girls parts to do anything but recieve the attention of their peers, boys and girls. but believe me the training has begun. <P>boys notice the change, and they learn well to notice because if you notice you get strokes from the girls (even mom). so you start to notice all girls and how they primp and prepare themselves for the world. and then when you actually begin to realize what a girl really is... they make themselfs un-attainable. girls dont make themselves availible to you they want the older boy, your still a child to them you were just playing with a GI joe weren't you?<P>the cycle continues on and on woman continue to via for the attentions of men, and throughout thier lives men continue to not have any real access for some time to come they have already envisioned in their minds over and over what it would be like just to be around that particular girl. even if its not sexual yet... <P>so the training starts very young and men during the most formative of times in thier lives have only the images of the girls in thier minds maybe a picture or a magazine ad catches their attention, and you know what they have about the same amount of access to the girls in the picture as they do to the ones in their lives. <P>so the movie in their heads become more and more sophisticated, men fulfull an important need with the images in their head and what the see everyday. as men continue to grow and gain a greater appretiation for the female form, and sexuality become an instinctive part of their lives. horomones hit and they dont even consciensly know what hit them. they are drawn to women in new way driven by nature. <P>Then the conflict begins.. that natural desire is "BAD" good boys and girls dont do that stuff so the self control begins. does that diminish the desire? no! does it make it an even greater couriosity? oh yea!<BR>can you explore this subject openly with anyone? no. not your friends, not your parents not anyone so your left to explore this on your own, in hiding.<P>so the hiding begins. its not good or right to be interested in women this way, (even though it is completely natural) you are told again and again not to indulge what is seemingly natural. and you get satisfaction just entertaining the idea in your head what would it be like to kiss this girl or that, that kiss grows and grows, what would it be like to have that girl care about me? how would it be if she was as inamored with me as i am with her. each girl begins to have a different draw some nurturing, some purely sexual and everything in between.<P>men have learned to satisfy their most primal of needs without relying on women to be physically or emotionally involved at all.<BR>and we learn that we have to hide that fact. <P>this behaviour becomes a mainstay in our lives it becomes a way to stimulate our minds and explore ourselves without infringing on others. we train our minds and body's to respond favorably to visual cues both in real life and in images.<P>Porn comes in a wide variety and each individual explores it to different level depending on what events shape their lives, just as some people have experimented in real life with extreams so to do images that satisfy that couriosity exist. to others, the womans section ( not just the bra and panty section) of the sears catalog served the purpose just fine for me.<P>Out into the world we send these men trained from the youngest of ages that Women want them to look at them and that they want to be desired by them, we offer up a variety of selection second to none, and we ask of men to select one. only one. and we remind them constently that they should only want one.<P>but women continue to display themselves to the world "look at me, Look at me" and men continue to see them and desire them, the thing that diferentiates humans from most other spieces on earth (besides silverware) is that we make the conscience decision to select a lifes mate. we choose to be faithful and have only that one mate forever. does that in any way change the nature of men, or women for that matter? <P>I submit that it does not, that men and women still see and seek the attention of those around them. but with the recognition that it is only appropriate to recieve that special kind of attention from the person they selected for life forsaking all others.<P>i further submit that the reminder of attention by others toward you and your desire for them is healthy and promotes self esteem, what is not healthy is any actions that indulge it.<P>so here we are traind to stimulate our minds and bodies with the visual cues that are ever present for us and without permission to indulge them. so we hide it. its not ok to look at a woman who stimulates us in the presence of our spouse because it is wrong or insulting, we are not allowed to view that same woman if our spouse isnt there because if she discovers it we have again wronged our spouse. so you hide it. you hide what is now such an integrated part of your life that you are not sure how not to do it. <P>why is it that way? because we breed ourselves this way we train our boys to look and then scold them for doing it.<P>I can tell you that when my marriage is healthy that when i am looking at the dress on the girl at the mall, i am envisoning how my wife would look in it. how would it be to have my wife dress that way to please me. I also indulge in porn to the same extent, what would it be like to have my wife do that for me? this is not to say that i dont imagine for the sake of self gratification what it might be like to be with that other woman, but the reality is that they are no more availible to me now then they have ever been, only now the reason isnt because they arent or wouldnt be interested, its because i have commited my heart to only one and i want her to fullfill that part of my EN's for me.<P>so we venture forward into our lives together and we seek to fulfill the EN's of our spouses but guess what the level of need in all areas of our lives varies significantly, i need more of this you need more of that, and sometiems we can meet those need somtimes we cant, there is a variable nature to all of these does the fact that my wife is sexually fullfilled have any bearing on whether i am? not at all, does the fact that i indulge in the viewing of other women mean that i am not interested in my wife being the sole person fullfilling me that way? not at all. for me it means that i have a EN, and its not always about sex by the way sometimes its affection or admiration that is low that i find easy to satisfy by doing what i was trained to do from the youngest of age. Play the movie in my head.<P>if i have any advice to offer, it is that we have trained our men to nurture themselves this way, that the best thing you can do is to embrace the practice, participate, find out what need he is fullfilling this way and id be willing to bet that a few things will happen. 1. he will not lie to you about it so you wont get hurt by it. 2. you will know when his EN's arent being met 3. you will find new ways to fulfill those needs that he honestly believes you are not open to.<P>or is it that im an insensitive JERK?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hey Chaz. I thought it was kind of funny that we both posted on this forum within minutes of eachother! Are things any better for you? I noticed that they seemed to be moving in your direction recently. Unfortunately I have not fared as well. But I have kept your words in mind; I have remembered how hard it was to disclose my affair and how everything else I may wish to divulge pales in comparison to that admission. Also that I should act honorably in whatever course I take. I hope you are well.<P>I don't entirely agree with your point of view in this post. I think much more of attraction issues revolve around basic animal instinct and pro-creation, how men and women are wired differently and how that wiring all leads to the promulgation of the human race. But that's just me.

BeNice,<P>You know as big a jerk as i am, I try extreamly hard to be respectful of my wife, and of her feelings. <P>when my wife is not secure in our relationship i am failing to make her feel that way. and i take that responsibility very seriously. (i think that her feeling secure gave her permission to not work to meet my EN's but thats another story)<P>she does not appreciate if i look too hard at a woman, she is realistic though and she gives me an elbow in the chest if she thinks i have crossed the line. even if its a woman in a movie, just last night we were watching Charlies Angels, and there is a scene where lucy lue is bending over and her A$$ is really the only thing on the screen to look at and well i guess i should have turned my head but i got the elbow mainly because i didnt do a very good job at hiding my pleasure at the site.<P>the truth is that i look, I do so mostly without any real desire or itrigue but that is not to say that i dont respect the feelings of my wife. <P>I do so sometimes to give her space to grow or rest to not hold her so personally responsible for meeting my EN right here Right Now!<P>sometimes i look to just to have an idea of how my wife might look in an outfit, sometimes i look because there is simply no way not to (you know the outfits i am talking about!) <P>but the bottom line is i wrote all that because i kept seeing people time and time again blasting their partners for their indulging in the viewing of porn and or women.<P>being addicted or lost in Intrigue is not acceptable behavior, and being disrespectful and inconsiderate is just wrong.<P>but setting up an environment where a man feels like he has to hide or be ashamed of his behavior will ultimatly put barriers between you and he. he will lie to keep you from knowing and hide things that are really quite innocent <P>that said, anything done to excess is usually not good for one reason or another.<P>you portray your husband as an inconsiderate a$$ is this what you wanted to do, is it really how he is?<P>i would love to be of some assistance but i need more data.

Wow! Thanks for replying so quickly! My husband used to be extremely difficult to get along with at times. Non communicative, verbally and emotionally nasty. As well as being extremely distracted by other women - the case in church being a prime example. Just a few months ago, I left him for a couple of day - cause I couldn't take it anymore. We went to a few sessions of marriage counselling that helped immensely - at least in the way he treats me verbally and emotionally. He has even tried really hard not to look so intently at other women - I guess I'd say he is being the man I always wanted him to be. The only problem is, I can't seem to rid myself of the distrust I have in him. I guess the underlying question for me is why does/did he have such an enormous interest in looking at other women? And just cause he's trying not to do it in front of me anymore, doesn't mean he's still not unhealthily intersted, right? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B>BeNice,<P>You know as big a jerk as i am, I try extreamly hard to be respectful of my wife, and of her feelings. <P>when my wife is not secure in our relationship i am failing to make her feel that way. and i take that responsibility very seriously. (i think that her feeling secure gave her permission to not work to meet my EN's but thats another story)<P>she does not appreciate if i look too hard at a woman, she is realistic though and she gives me an elbow in the chest if she thinks i have crossed the line. even if its a woman in a movie, just last night we were watching Charlies Angels, and there is a scene where lucy lue is bending over and her A$$ is really the only thing on the screen to look at and well i guess i should have turned my head but i got the elbow mainly because i didnt do a very good job at hiding my pleasure at the site.<P>the truth is that i look, I do so mostly without any real desire or itrigue but that is not to say that i dont respect the feelings of my wife. <P>I do so sometimes to give her space to grow or rest to not hold her so personally responsible for meeting my EN right here Right Now!<P>sometimes i look to just to have an idea of how my wife might look in an outfit, sometimes i look because there is simply no way not to (you know the outfits i am talking about!) <P>but the bottom line is i wrote all that because i kept seeing people time and time again blasting their partners for their indulging in the viewing of porn and or women.<P>being addicted or lost in Intrigue is not acceptable behavior, and being disrespectful and inconsiderate is just wrong.<P>but setting up an environment where a man feels like he has to hide or be ashamed of his behavior will ultimatly put barriers between you and he. he will lie to keep you from knowing and hide things that are really quite innocent <P>that said, anything done to excess is usually not good for one reason or another.<P>you portray your husband as an inconsiderate a$$ is this what you wanted to do, is it really how he is?<P>i would love to be of some assistance but i need more data.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ava:<BR><B>Are things any better for you? I noticed that they seemed to be moving in your direction recently. Unfortunately I have not fared as well<P>I think much more of attraction issues revolve around basic animal instinct and pro-creation, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes things are better for me, it is amazing how easily i can be in love with my wife when she works toward meeting my EN's. <P>I read the book why marriages fail by gottman, and gained a huge amount of skills for improving the communication between her and i, this seems to have had a profound effect on our relationship, basically i recognized how defensive everything that came out of my mouth was, and I have concentrated on ending that behavior on my part. <P>i am hopeful that my wife is genuine in her actions and is acting out of a full heart, and not out of fear of losing me. i have taken my own advice and been very clear about what i need, and what i have to give. and that i am prepared to act on a life that is not fulfilling so there is alot going on and i question a little her motivations but at the same time she has always said that she wants me to be stronger so maybe she has just been waiting for me to tell her what it will take to keep me as her man<P>thank you for your interest and take heart, if i can be here in my relationship there is hope for all.<P>chaz<P>

benice,<P>what does he say when you ask him why he looks at women?<P>i dont mean what does he say when you catch him i mean when you sat at the dinner table and you asked him (you have asked him right?) what did he say?<P>does he sit and imagine what life would be like if only he married her? or does he wonder what it would be like to have sex with them? or is he momentarily distracted by the beauty of them and then use that emotion to make passionate love to you?<P>what does he say about it?<P>chaz

Thanks for all your insight Chaz and I thought I would chime in since I am usually the one pointing out the cuties to H ,,,LOL,, I guess I understand that when a lady is looking nice it does not take away from my beauty,,, it just means there are others out there that look good and work at it... I have never been insulted and my H has never stared too long,,, could it be because it is not taboo with us to look? could it be because he doesnt get in trouble and therefore it is not as exciting to sneak a peek?<BR>just my 2 cents worth.. I had to post about something else besides the everyday stress of recovery

He basically says that I'm paranoid and imagining it. That just cause he turns his head in that direction doesn't mean he's looking at her all the time. And that may be true sometimes. But there are other times when I'm quite sure what he's up to. For instance, not too long ago he & I were down on the lake enjoying our speed boat for the weekend. His buddies were all telling him about this boat that they were parked next to the night before - boy the sights they saw - I guess it was like a porno movie in the water! I was not too happy about it and my H knew it but when we left our dock that next day, guess where he drove straight to? The spot right next to the porno boat! We had one of our grown daughters with us as well as her friend. I was peeved to say the least cause basically what he told me by his actions was that even tho he knew how ticked I'd be, even tho his daughter was in the boat, this chance at some great shots was just too good to pass up. I felt very disrespected. When I've asked him about it, he just tells one of his little white lies and say "that's the only open spot there was on the beach". He didn't even look for anything else. So not only is he disrespectful in my eyes, he lies about it too! I guess what I'm confused about is if he's as much in love with me as he professes to be, why that much interest in looking at other women? Whe does he need that if he is so in love with me and so happy with our sex life? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B>benice,<P>what does he say when you ask him why he looks at women?<P>i dont mean what does he say when you catch him i mean when you sat at the dinner table and you asked him (you have asked him right?) what did he say?<P>does he sit and imagine what life would be like if only he married her? or does he wonder what it would be like to have sex with them? or is he momentarily distracted by the beauty of them and then use that emotion to make passionate love to you?<P>what does he say about it?<P>chaz</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Did you ever have a crush on someone you didn't like?<P>Hormones are a funny thing. This inexplicable "crush" experience happened to me many times as an adolescent, and I am not immune to the influence of my hormones even today, two decades later. I have wandered out of my way for a better view of an attractive woman, and a pretty teenager in a short skirt will <I>still</I> draw my attention.<P>However, in all my life, I have wanted and imagined having a sexual relationship with exactly one person: my wife. I do not believe that my visual and hormonal appreciation of an attractive female could be considered "lust". My hormonal responses <I>inform</I> my desires, but they do not <I>dictate</I> my desires, and to me the idea of a sexual relationship without holistic intimacy is emotionally repellent.<P>Whether this insight is helpful to anyone else, I don't know. I have often wondered whether my experience in this matter is in part a result of my never having been sexually involved with anyone other than my wife. (I never even <I>dated</I> anyone else.) Even in my uncontrolled <I>dreams</I> of a sexual nature, I have found that a prospective partner invariably morphs into my wife, and I think perhaps it is impossible for me to imagine sexual relations with anyone except my wife, because I have no other experiences to draw from.<P>Sadly, this type of "protection" is already unavailable to most people today by the time they are capable of understanding its advantages.<BR>

BeNice,<P>Ok heres where i will get in trouble for opening my mouth.<P>you just confirmed two things for me. <P>1. you havent figured out how to set a boundry for acceptable behavior with your husband and enforced it once it is set.<P>2. your husband is a jerk.<P>that said, it is entirely possible for your husband to be completely in love with you, even committed to monagamy in the physical sence, but be all over the place in intreage with others which is very damaging as you have clearly seen. <P>have you and he discussed the HNHN concepts, done the EN Questionare? has he committed to impoving the marriage? where are you in this process?<P>

I appreciate your honesty and insights. So no need to worry about your opinions getting me upset or angry. They help which is what I'm doing here. We have done the HNHN and all that. I believe my H just thinks that what he does is no big deal - I make it a big deal. He says everyone looks - what I try to explain to him is there's a huge diff between looking and being distracted. Maybe I have not set up boundaries like you said, that he can understand - we've certainly had enuf arguments about it but maybe I need to be more clear to him. It's just that do you really have to explain to your H that his gawking at other women at my expense tells me something about what's important to him? How can I trust him when he puts his "interests" before my feelings? His answer is I make too big a deal out of it. <BR>He, as far as I know, has no other sexual experience other than me. So I sometimes try to excuse his behavior on the fact that he's prob not seen too much "stuff" and he's not going to turn down any opportunity no matter what trouble it may get him in.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B>BeNice,<P>Ok heres where i will get in trouble for opening my mouth.<P>you just confirmed two things for me. <P>1. you havent figured out how to set a boundry for acceptable behavior with your husband and enforced it once it is set.<P>2. your husband is a jerk.<P>that said, it is entirely possible for your husband to be completely in love with you, even committed to monagamy in the physical sence, but be all over the place in intreage with others which is very damaging as you have clearly seen. <P>have you and he discussed the HNHN concepts, done the EN Questionare? has he committed to impoving the marriage? where are you in this process?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I wish my husband felt that way about me - maybe he even does but he has an odd way of showing it. I don't think a H should be that interested in looking at other women, that his W has to point it out to him? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Did you ever have a crush on someone you didn't like?<P>Hormones are a funny thing. This inexplicable "crush" experience happened to me many times as an adolescent, and I am not immune to the influence of my hormones even today, two decades later. I have wandered out of my way for a better view of an attractive woman, and a pretty teenager in a short skirt will <I>still</I> draw my attention.<P>However, in all my life, I have wanted and imagined having a sexual relationship with exactly one person: my wife. I do not believe that my visual and hormonal appreciation of an attractive female could be considered "lust". My hormonal responses <I>inform</I> my desires, but they do not <I>dictate</I> my desires, and to me the idea of a sexual relationship without holistic intimacy is emotionally repellent.<P>Whether this insight is helpful to anyone else, I don't know. I have often wondered whether my experience in this matter is in part a result of my never having been sexually involved with anyone other than my wife. (I never even <I>dated</I> anyone else.) Even in my uncontrolled <I>dreams</I> of a sexual nature, I have found that a prospective partner invariably morphs into my wife, and I think perhaps it is impossible for me to imagine sexual relations with anyone except my wife, because I have no other experiences to draw from.<P>Sadly, this type of "protection" is already unavailable to most people today by the time they are capable of understanding its advantages.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<B> BeNice said: "do you really have to explain to your H that his gawking at other women at my expense tells me something about what's important to him? How can I trust him when he puts his "interests" before my feelings? His answer is I make too big a deal out of it. " </B><P><BR>You absolutly have to explain it, stop arguing about it be calm and direct tell him what is acceptable, what you expect from him and what happens when he doesnt show you proper respect.<P>when you say you try to excuse his behavior, he knows you do, and he is pushing you to your limit, and you know exactly what you do. let it go or even extend the limit forget that, if you dont protect the boundry who will obviously not the hubby of yours <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B> BeNice said: "do you really have to explain to your H that his gawking at other women at my expense tells me something about what's important to him? How can I trust him when he puts his "interests" before my feelings? His answer is I make too big a deal out of it. " </B><P><BR>You absolutly have to explain it, stop arguing about it be calm and direct tell him what is acceptable, what you expect from him and what happens when he doesnt show you proper respect.<P>when you say you try to excuse his behavior, he knows you do, and he is pushing you to your limit, and you know exactly what you do. let it go or even extend the limit forget that, if you dont protect the boundry who will obviously not the hubby of yours <P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Will try to be more clearwith H. Thanks for ALL your help today!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B> BeNice said: "do you really have to explain to your H that his gawking at other women at my expense tells me something about what's important to him? How can I trust him when he puts his "interests" before my feelings? His answer is I make too big a deal out of it. " </B><P><BR>You absolutly have to explain it, stop arguing about it be calm and direct tell him what is acceptable, what you expect from him and what happens when he doesnt show you proper respect.<P>when you say you try to excuse his behavior, he knows you do, and he is pushing you to your limit, and you know exactly what you do. let it go or even extend the limit forget that, if you dont protect the boundry who will obviously not the hubby of yours <P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B>You absolutly have to explain it, stop arguing about it be calm and direct tell him what is acceptable, what you expect from him and what happens when he doesnt show you proper respect.<P>when you say you try to excuse his behavior, he knows you do, and he is pushing you to your limit, and you know exactly what you do. let it go or even extend the limit forget that, if you dont protect the boundry who will obviously not the hubby of yours</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with all of this, and I don't think there can be any doubt that "hubby" is trampling roughshod over boundaries. He is not being honest or mature.<P>But, BeNice, I wonder whether he also may have a point about you making "too big deal a deal out of it". What is the reason for your insecurity about this? From the little I've heard, <I>I</I> would be far more concerned about his dishonesty than his wandering eye, and it's hard to know whether he's acting sneaky because he has a problem with voyeurism or because he wants to avoid dealing with your insecurities.<P>It may take professional help to sort this stuff out and figure out what boundaries are appropriate. But there <I>is</I> a problem, and it would be wise to address it.<BR>

That's just it. I def think his dishonesty (which he considers just little white lies and which I think quite possibly is his trying to get away from my insecurities and questions)feeds my "over reaction" to his looking and visa-versa. Def in need of prof help but let me tell you how good it is to be able to discuss these issues with you people. Your insight and comments have made me think about my own behaviours which have quite possibly snowballed small problems into huge ones. So important to be absolutely open and candid with your S. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> I agree with all of this, and I don't think there can be any doubt that "hubby" is trampling roughshod over boundaries. He is not being honest or mature.<P>But, BeNice, I wonder whether he also may have a point about you making "too big deal a deal out of it". What is the reason for your insecurity about this? From the little I've heard, <I>I</I> would be far more concerned about his dishonesty than his wandering eye, and it's hard to know whether he's acting sneaky because he has a problem with voyeurism or because he wants to avoid dealing with your insecurities.<P>It may take professional help to sort this stuff out and figure out what boundaries are appropriate. But there <I>is</I> a problem, and it would be wise to address it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

chazbutler,<BR>Since discovering my h is a sex addict, I have a huge appreciation for honesty and that is what your post was all about. I don't have time this evening to carefully read your post but there are many basic truths written there and I do agree that 'hiding' those feelings is the worst thing that can happen. I have to say that pornography is absolutely unaccaptable for me as well as my H now that we have processed his addiction. Porn is going a step beyond what is natural and it is degrading and dehumanizing to both men and women. I have never had a problem with my H admiring other women and even after all we have been through that does not bother me. I know that his actions as an addict, have nothing to do with me and complex issues are involved. Self evaluation must be done for adulterous spouses whether they are addicts or not. A spouse may not be meeting EN's but that is not an acceptable explanation for adultery. EN's become a part of the recovery process and although they play a role in the act of adultery, there is no exuse for a spouse to dishonor their partner and risk their life. A healthy appreciation for attractive men and women can be normal. Every couple must decide what the boundaries in their relationship will be. My h is respectful towards me in this regard. You have proviede insight into how men use visual cues. I could become defensive and say that we don't spend our formative years attracting boys/men, but as I reflect on my youth and my 5th grade daughter, I have to say that I agree. Of course, there is stiff competition in the locker room to have the best looking girl on his arm. Women that continue to dress for the purpose of attracting a man's attention and men who respond inapropriately are seeking a temporary ego boost that can have painful consequences. A first brief look is one thing, a second look is unacceptable especially if those looks involve eye contact. Positioning yourself for a prolonged look is unacceptable. As we mature and our hormones quit raging it is hopeful that we would begin to look to God for our fulfillment instead of ourselves. For many this does not happen and we go through life trying to figure out what will satisfy us.