I have been married 3 1/2 years now and am in my late 20s. <P>My wife has traveled with her job for over a year now and found herself spending most of her time in one particular city working with clients. I was supportive of this at the time because she really wanted the opportunity and it seemed to make her happy. I trusted her implicitly.<P>The distance has been very hard and makes building the relationship challenging. I find myself angry that she has not been more persistent in wanting to be home more and this has certainly caused some friction. She used to want this too and in many ways sways back and forth.<P>Over the last year I have found her to emotionally swing all over the map. Loves me, Distant, Hates me, Emotional etc..<P>I recently learned through snooping through email, which in of itself should lead you to realize I had some concerns, that something was going on.<P>I now know that during last year she became close and had an affair with a co-worker/client in that city. The emotional affair has lasted nearly a year (Jan '01) and the physical affair ended in Sept '00, so I am told.<P>Due to other job issues, and while all this was unfolding between us, she decided that she wanted to leave her job. I wanted her to come home perminently to work on us and build the relationship. All her peers agree that this distance isn't healthy.<P>She chose to take a job in that city and come home 3-4 days a week. In light of what I just learned I was astonished she was even considering it. <P>Obviously I was angry and felt that this was clear acknowledgement that she wasn't commited to us. <P>However, I told her she had to make her own decision and that my positon was that I wanted to rebuild our relationship and have a healthy marriage. I wanted her home. I wasn't confident that could be done with her away all the time. BUT, I made it clear that if she wasn't committed to truly rebuilding our relationship I was not going to stay.<P>It has been 7 weeks since I found out and she assures me that all contact with her lover is stopped now. Although she has said many times that she considers him a friend and thinks I should be ok with her talking to him. I clearly am against this. <P>She tells me all the time while she is away that she loves me, misses me, cares for me.. etc. I think she does love me, and has said she is very confused, hurt, angry and ashamed by the experience.<P>BUT... when she comes home she is colder and not affectionate. She seems very selfish and not really proactive on trying to search out how I feel etc. <P>So here I am.. I love her, but this is so hard. I am very very hurt and her being away so much particularly now leads me to all kinds of thoughts. I feel very tormented.<P>She came home for the first time this weekend since all this came to pass, and we argued quite a bit. I guess I anticipated that she would come home and hold me, say she was sorry, and be enthusistic to start over.. following on her phone conversations.. she wasn't, even though she says all that when she is away. She came home and was cold and motionless. I unfortunately reacted with anger. I realized that we weren't able to communicate one on one and get through this.<P>After some careful thought I realized that we have been having trouble for some time and all this is clearly a reflection of that. But with the distance, etc.. I don't know how we can truly address and fix it for real.<P>So I told her that one of the conditions I needed met when she took the job was that she be proactive and find us a counselor to work on this, or else I needed to move on. I wanted her to do this because up till now I feel I have been the proactive one and I need her to own this too.<P>I pushed this agan when she came home and she reacted as though I was requesting something ridiculous. I told her that it was essential for me and if she didn't find someone then I would leave. Not sure if she will.<P>On top of it.. as soon as she leaves again she calls me all the time and is full of I love you and misses me stuff.<P>My take on all this is that she is comfortable having someone at HOME who is there for her. But she wants to be free to have her other life. She says I can trust her, but doesn't really do anything proactive to assure me of that.<P>So where do I go from here? There are moments when I want to plan B the whole thing and force her to either committ to us or let me move on. <P>I love her deeply, but am emotionally a mess right now and really want closure for my life. This has been a long haul.<P>I could use your perspective?<P>K<P><BR>

Karl--<P>Welcome. I'm glad you came here looking for different perspectives. Others will chime in. <P>What struck me about your post is your DEMANDS to your W about counseling, or else, and responding to her in anger. You are putting her on the defensive when you are together in person. She apparently feels safer expressing her loving feelings for you by phone. Why is that, do you think. And what can you do to resolve more intimate communication problems?<P>Read all you can at this website, especially about Plans A and B. I would suggest you immediately begin a strong Plan A to build up love units in your W's account. "A" comes first, remember. <P>Any discussions of counseling (which IS a good thing, start by yourself if you have to) should be presented kindly and respectfully. Tell her you added the "or else" in anger because you felt hurt, and love her so much. Tell her what you REALLY meant is you hope she will go with you because YOU want to work hard to make the marriage better. Wouldn't that sound more tempting to her than the way it went?<P>You have to look forward to the end result you really want. A solid foundation for a loving relationship? Then put aside your anger toward her, let a counselor show you ways to deal with it effectively. If you keep pushing, you will eventually just push her right out the door. She made a mistake, and it will take BOTH of you to repair it and grow from the experience. But YOU have to start the ball rolling. The very fact that you are posting here shows your genuine concern for your marriage. Dr. Harley's concepts are tried and true...there are many success stories. Follow the suggestions here, get counseling (many say phone counseling with the Harleys is quite effective), and HEAL, together. One step at a time.<P>Laura

You are absolutely correct and obviously wise. <P>When I first learned of the affair the job opportunity came up and I was forced to deal with something that I believed was extremely unfair. I guess this made me crazy, but I handled it ok and left the decision for her to make. <P>All I asked for, about three weeks ago now, was that we get counseling. I really expected her to proactively seek that during that time, and she didn't.<P>When she came home and I felt a sense of rejection I reacted out of anger and demanded she make the move to prove it to me. All a reaction to make me feel better I think.<P>I think your approach is much more solid and frankly more in line with my personality anyway.<P>Her comfort in talking with me when she's away is something we need to explore. I feel very comfortable opening up, which is my nature anyway, and she doesn't. I hope to get some answers there.. I thought I made it a safe place for her, maybe not.<P>I will Plan A it for some time, but I have to admit that her being away makes trust very hard and I don't know how to address that. <P>I certainly don't want to push her away by 'checking up' on her all the time, but everything seemed ok on the phone from before when she was having the affair.. how will I know or sense the truth now? And how do I deal with that?<P>K<P>

Karl,<P> Your story is almost a mirror of mine. If you had mentioned kids, it would be mine. It's too late for me to write too much right now. Run a user ID search of some of my posts in "read only and GS II" and you'll see. Wow it's too freaky.<P>Mike<BR>

Karl, I think that you have major problems with a wife that tells you that you should be O.K. with her talking and being a friend to the man she has had an affair with. This position is unacceptable and cruel to you.<BR>How are you to have any trust and respect when she is still in contact with him when she is away. I think that your perspective is correct in that she wishes to have someone to <BR>be home with and also to be able to act as<BR>a single person when away. I think that the only way for your marriage to survive is to have her stop all contact with this man and find a job where she does not travel. Otherwise you are being forced to live a life with great psychological pain. It sounds like your wife is being very selfish. She should be thrilled that you have forgive her instead of telling you she wishes to remain in contact and a friend to the OM. This should not be acceptable. You should not have to live your life this way. If she will not or cannot compromise then what do you really have left?

Hi Karl,<BR>Thanks for responding to my post, so here's my take on your situation. <P>I think you really need to work hard on the Plan A approach. It is REALLY tough, but you are up to it. It's OK to feel like taking off or plan B-ing it but you need to work hard on not letting that come through in your tone of voice or your expression. It sounds like you are laying down ultimatums, and that will only drive her farther away.<P>You said that when she is away, and you speak with her on the phone, she is warm and affectionate. But when she's home she's cold and distant. Is is possible that she is feeling forced to be home, and barraged with demands and suspicion when she gets home? You have every reason to feel that way it’s just counterproductive and tends to drive her farther away. Check the MB site for info on meeting her Emotional Needs and making yourself better person for her.<P>You also talked about insisting on a commitment from her to rebuild the relationship. I understand that urge as well, but you might have to be the stronger one here. Consider telling her that you love her, and always will and that you ARE totally committed to rebuilding the relationship, including trying to meet her EN etc... Tell her that all she has to do now is try. Ultimately you are going to need a total commitment, but it will never be forced or won through demands. <P>As for the "friendship" with the OM, my approach, which hasn't yet worked completely, is to tell her how painful that relationship is to you. You cannot forbid her to see him, but apply gentle, consistent pressure. Eventually you may need to do the Plan B approach, not to "force her to commit", but to let her deal with the lack of your emotional support. Plan B is only effective after you have worked really hard on the Plan A approach. So that her memories of you are of the supportive, loving, caring H. The demanding, accusatory, judgmental H will not win her back but are likely to drive her TO him.<P>Of course you are tormented...who wouldn't be? You are entitled to be. People who have not been through this can't imagine how devastating it is. If she won't go to counseling, go without her. Your own counselor can help you deal with all of your emotions and help you survive this. After all, whether your marriage survives is still in doubt, but YOU will. You need to stay strong...she obviously still loves you, and it sounds like your marriage is worth fighting for. Hang in there.<P>That’s my take but I’m really new to all this. I hope others weigh in for you.<BR>John<P>

Karl,<P> First off, I would have serious doubts that her affair is over. What ways has she tried to prove to you that it really is over? Was that information freely offered or did you have to dig for it? For now I'll assume dig. <P> Using any form of ultimatum to change her behavior is a poor approach. At this point you do not sound like you are ready to walk away and not following through only makes you look weak (read doormat). If she did change her behavior under these conditions then you have a situation that is not based on her desire and she would honor it for very long.<P> I too asked my wife to take responsibility for the counseling, and prematurely drew the same conclusions as you when she did not. I would suggest that you enter counseling by yourself for yourself. Mostly because if you plan to create a environment that your wife finds appealing to return to, then you must get help with the anger. It has been my experience that my wife was most offended by my anger surrounding the affair and the entire laundry list of things that go with it. If possible try to find someone who embraces the MB techniques or use Steve Harley from this site. He has some great approaches to re-channeling this energy. I know it doesn’t seem to makes sense that we're not allowed to be upset about the situation our WS have placed us in but it makes a difference to them.<P>I whole heatedly agree with Byranps assessment of your situation when he stated "I think that your perspective is correct in that she wishes to have someone to be home with and also to be able to act as a single person when away. I think that the only way for your marriage to survive is to have her stop all contact with this man and find a job where she does not travel. Otherwise you are being forced to live a life with great psychological pain. It sounds like your wife is being very selfish. She should be thrilled that you have forgive her instead of telling you she wishes to remain in contact and a friend to the OM. This should not be acceptable.". <P>I do have to disagree with his statement of "If she will not or cannot compromise then what do you really have left?" I give you this comment because it's way too early to start considering questions like this. Not to say they are not valid questions…they are..just not now. You just started unveiling some of the truth and answers you need and they were harsh. It's time to learn some more about this new world you were just born into & how it effects yourself than to start drawing final conclusions. <P>I can tell you first hand that the blind trust she appears to be looking for with the distances factor was and still is a maddening factor for me and truly caused me some serious damage. Especially when your told that in her eyes it is OK to still be friends with OM and her reconciliation actions do not match her words. This type of situation will affect you the same as WS who is living with the OP telling you they "miss you and want to be together". Then you allow them back in the home and immediately upon return they start acting like they want to leave again. Most people would see the moving in and out of a WS weekly as horribly cruel behavior for a WS spouse exhibit, but due to the fact that it can be cloaked as a job related necessity, very few (even here) could view our situations as having the same effect on us. Due to the blatantly disrespectful and extremely cruel nature of the source for the anger generation, serious measures should be taken to get it in check.<P><BR>Next some potential options to consider. <P>1. Can you buy a copy of Surviving an Affair by Harley?<BR>2. Can with the help of a counselor adopt a PLAN A approach?<BR>3. Can you with the help of a counselor, determine how long you will implement your initial approach?<BR>4. Can you lower your expectations to look for smaller less noticeable results than her immediately coming home to say I'm sorry.<BR>5. Can you take some time off to travel with her if she is agreeable?<BR>6. Can you look for employment in her town of employment?<BR>7. Can you find a few close friends or family members to confide in? Preferably a male if friend category. Female is only OK if her husband is also a friend and present.<P><BR>Just so you have a little perspective on how much weight to give my words. I am almost exactly one year past you in my reconciliation attempts. I am 35, she is 34. We have a 4 & 6-year-old daughters, been together for 12 years and married 10 year. Wife travels for sales and had about a yearlong affair with co-worker/mentor. D-Day was at about the 6 months into the affair although I had definitive knowledge at least 2 months prior. At this point I wouldn’t consider my efforts to reconcile with my wife extremely successful but not fruitless. We still have many of those same issues you mentioned today in that she takes hardly/if any actions or responsibilities in reconciling our marriage. She still/and has for some time considered her contributions to reconciliation as being at home when she is not traveling and wanting to avoid any discussions apparently thinking things should just magically get better. 6 months ago I had a brief revenge affair that set the clock back way beyond zero. We are now just approaching the issues of a no-contact letter and why remaining friends with OM is not an option I should be expected to accept, unfortunately it was only initiated under the ultimatum of the big D.<P>If I can help in any way, just ask. I even have some 2x4s, as some posters on this forum occasionally consider using to whack some sense into their WS. Too bad it doesn’t work that way.<P><BR>Hang in there, it might be a long haul<P>Mike<P><p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited February 21, 2001).]

Karl:<P>Brother, I feel your pain. You and I both need to hit that release valve occasionally and let some of the pressure out, but we are just in the early stages of this mess and the the things we need to hear in response to our pain just aren't there yet. My wife is good about accepting this in small doses,and fortunately she realizes contact or friendship with OM is not an option, but despite intense remorse there is no concurring opinion that the OM is a POS who is undeserving of her and who would certainly represent a life of misery. Your situation is compounded by the distance factor and that your only oportunity to vent a bit in person is scarce. There is not enough time together to have those little sessions and then recover long enough to have any affectionate time, which is hard to come by right now anyway.<P>The other big hurdle you and I face is that we are young and have no children to provide the extra incentive. I am constantly fighting the urge to cut my losses and get out while the gettin's good. I have visions of the new boat filled with co-eds this summer helping me to forget my sorrows, then starting fresh with another nice girl but with my eyes wide open and a hearty resistance to complacency. The only problem with that picture is that I love and adore my wife. I am willing to live with the pain and some uncertainty for a time in order to spend my life with her.<P>My advice to you is the one I am about to follow. Schedule some individual sessions with a marriage counselor who you believe your wife would like. My wife has problems sharing her feelings as does yours, so I think a woman makes sense. I need some professional advice on how to vent the anger without involving my wife in every turn of the valve. The plan is for her to join us in the near future, and hopefully I will have laid some groundwork in the meantime. Unlike your wife, she wants to go to couples counseling but needs to identify some things about herself with her own counelor before we get to us. If we pick well, maybe our counselors can give us some non-threatening techniques to bring the wives into the fold. If you talk to her over the phone in a positive way about what you are accomplishing, she may realize that it is not all that bad. I agree with the other poster about having a male to speak with as well (I think the female counselor is safe) outside of the counseling environment. This was a tough one for me because I did not want to involve family or friends. We have a young assistant dean at our church who I finally had the courage to go to, and he has been great. Just someone to call and see how you are doing. If you do not have a young pastor or a church home, maybe you could call around to churches to see who does. You don't have to be a member to start such as conversation. But I think it would be more difficult to relate to someone in their 50's (apologies to the old timers )<P>So don't bale just yet. Besides, we don't have that biological clock thing hanging over our heads! Keep us posted.

First I want to say Thank you all for the depth of responses and valuable perspectives. To have the resources of this many introspective and experienced people is awesome.<P>All of your collective wisdom certainly hits many nails on the head.<P>In a nut shell, I have decided to plan A this as much as I can. I also plan to see a counselor with or without her by our side. I think I need it. <P>I am going to work on us as hard as I can, but the biggest hurdle for me is the constantly drifting emotions from anger to resentment to love. I am like a ping pong ball. <P>It is so hard to stay focused with these emotions pressing on me. Hopefully a counselor can address some of this. Fortunately I have many good friends.<P>I also have decided that no matter how painful the thought of her possibly continuing the affair behind my back is, that I can't truly know anyway. Since this is true she will do what she will do.<P>All I have the responsibility for is to plan A this relationship to a point of closure. If she chooses a continued affair along the way I can't control that with this situation.<P>However I will know that if we are not making progress etc.. then it probably is going on.<P>What's so hard for me is that while I thought we were making progress that this was all going on and she believes we were making none. It seems our expectations on improving our relationship are very different. I hope a counsellor can help align us.<P>As a part of the Plan A thinking I suggested to her that I come to visit her 1 day a week in the city. She wasn't enthused but wasn't against it. I think she believes I am merely keeping watch or something, when in fact I firmly believe we need REAL time together to start healing.<P>How far should I push elements of Plan A? I don't want her to think I am all healed either and that I am desperately seeking her love with no return. This seems to always be the paradox.<P>Thanks for you insights.. please keep them coming.<P>Best,<P>Karl

Karl,<P>You are welcome...and good luck. Not a lot of time this AM for a long post.<P>This is the toughest thing you'll probably ever do. Remember, it is a tough thing for her too. She has a lot to work through herself, and if it appears at times that she isn't making progress it may just be a rough spot for her...it does'nt necessarily mean that the A is back on. (But I sure do know how easily our suspicions can be aroused huh? That will have to be the subject of a future post.)<P>Check the site for info on her EN. It may give you some insight into why you each see progress differently.<P>Keep at it. Your marriage is clearly not over.<P>John<P>

Just a few quick thoughts:<P>1. Have you considered changing YOUR job and moving to that new city?<P>2. You state that the affair ended last September...what was your evidence for this? Her moving to that city is troublesome, and her refusal to break off contact totally is troublesome as well. What do you know about the OM? Is he married? Still in that city? Does he have continuing job connections to your W?<P>3. If you want counseling, drive the process. Find one, go alone if need be, don't wait for the withdrawn spouse to set it up, because it won't happen, or the whole process will become wreathed in negativity from arguing about who was supposed to do what. I highly recommend the phone counseling here through Steve Harley...fast, convenient, and effective. In fact, the two of you could counsel with him while in separate cities, which might be smart, since she seems to be more loving while separated, if that makes sense.<P>4. I think that two things need to happen: she has to agree to 100% NO contact. And the two of you have to set up housekeeping as husband and wife in the same place. A stronger marriage might survive this sort of arrangement on a temporary basis, but not one in trouble, and not where the WS is residing in the city where her lover lives...only because the suspicion will eat you alive.<P>Notwithstanding all the above....it seems like your W just doesn't like you very much right now, doesn't it? I'm not being cruel, because I've been in the same place, and it is a harsh reality that you have to face before getting motivated to change. In your case, she may still be in the "fog" recovering from the affair. Or maybe there is another outside influence. But that doesn't change your gameplan, which is to be a better partner through Plan A.<P>I thinnk you need to move aggressively, because the table is set here for her to wander again.<P>Muike<BR>