My wife and I have been happily married for 8 years. Last year she went through a depression over turning 30. She said she wanted to feel attractive and sexy. When I complemented her, she would say that I was her husband and had to say nice things to her. She started working at a company with only one other woman, who is older. Of course, all the men there started flirting with her. She enjoyed it and I was happy that she was getting the validation that she needed. She had said that she just wanted attention and nothing else and I trusted her. Then one day she came home and told me that on the way home, she had went parking and made out with a guy at work. He was leaving that week and she would never see him again. I know this sounds crazy, but she asked me for permisson to get with him one time before he left. She was real persistant and kept saying it would get everything out of her system and that she loved me and that it was just sex and nothing else. She had always been a good girl and she just wanted to be bad one time. She said he was leaving and we would never see him again. This is stupid, but I told her she could because I really do love her and don't want to lose her. Part of me felt like she was going to anyway. I didn't want her going behind my back. Anyway they got together and she came home saying how much she loved me and everything was done and over and he was lousy and I was great. Then two weeks later she tells me that he is comming back to the company and going to be working in the same office. She says she didn't know that he would come back. She says that they are not going to get together again, but I'm having a hard time trusting her. She's bought new lacy underware(she says it's for me) and she's got his cell number in her cell phone (I've seen where he has called her). There is no real way of knowing. She says they are just friends who work together and nothing is going on and most of all that she would never have done anything if I hadn't given her permisson. I just feel manipulated and guilty. What should I do?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark4:<BR><B>I just feel manipulated and guilty. What should I do?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My dumb opinion: If you don't have kids, move out. If you do have kids, show her the door and tell her she's got to grow up.<P>BamaAngst<P>

You have been manippulated, but you should not feel guilty. This is on her. She is the one who is only thinking of herself. <BR> You ned to tell her how much this hurts you, and ask her to help you work something out. I know you don't want to lose her, but allowing her to do whatever she wants, with no consequences, won't do either. That's not a marriage, that's just one person taking advantage of another, and it won't take long before you lose your love for her.<BR> Your W has some pretty mixed up ways of dealing with her emotions, and counseling could be really good for her if she is willing.<BR> Hoping for the best for you!<BR>hope

Mark,<P>Are you sure he left the job or just went on a vacation? I am sorry to be skeptic here, but I think if the OM stays your W needs to find a new job. Some a few years ago made a comment here that I think if very accurate. It is alright to have friends of the opposite sex, just not friends that the have slept with.<P>Does you W know how much the incident bothered you? Does she know how him back in the picture bothers you. It seems to me that she needs to quit the just turned 30 excuse and work on the marriage.<P>Hang in there and good luck.<P>JL

This is a weird one because on one level she has attempted some form of honesty and on another, this may simply be perceived honesty to cover up the real truth that she might be in too deep. I would look at the following link<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html</A> <P>and particularly ask her to do the following:<P>"How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone. <P>My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent."<P>This might give you some clues as to how willing she is to put an end to this...there can be no continued contact. I agree that she needs to also find a new job and erase that number from her cell phone.<P>Good luck, I hope it's not as bad as it looks to be for your sake, but I think you should prepare yourself for the long haul.<P>-LL<P>

I agree with Bamaangst that you have been manipulated and the chances are good he was probably on vacation. She has shown total disrespect for you and humiliated you for her gratification. I would leave before she mentally destroys you or you pick up an STD from her. Her behavior is utterly disgraceful. You deserve better my friend.

Mark4<P>Here's the deal. . .I'm not saying that anything your wife did or is doing is right, but I do believe, in her warped way, she was reaching out to you when she asked if she could be with this other guy. Of course you know this now, but back then is where you should have drawn the line. Since you cannot go back and change the past, you have to work with what you have.<P>My friendship with the OM turned into an EA and then to a PA. I am in no way justifying what I did - it was wrong plain and simple. The A lasted about 5-6 months, and my H and I have been recovering from this for almost a year now.<P>I wanted to mention a couple of things to you from my perspective - because, I think I was in a similar situation as your wife. I sound very much like your wife. I am 32, and never thought I had a problem with turning 30 or anything - I just wanted to feel young and sexy again. When the EA happened, I was really at a low point - both morally, emotionally, and physically. So, when the OM told me I was gorgeous, told me that he wanted me - well, it made me feel good. My H always told me these things, but I thought he HAD to tell me these things because he was my H - that he HAD to be nice to me. The thing is, when the OM told me all this stuff, and even after I told him that I was married, he continued to pursue me - I thought - because he really thought I was someone special. My H always felt that way about me, but I never really believed him - I don't know why.<P>So, when other men flirted with me, I was "suckered" in. I loved the attention, the affection, the passion - it seemed like my marriage didn't have that anymore. <P>When I read your post, I was struck by how similar your wife's situation is to mine - or was. Early on, before the EA went to a PA, I was out with my H - we were just joking around (he never knew anything was wrong, never knew anything about the A until I told him). Anyway, all along, when I was with the OM, I knew that what I was doing was wrong. I knew that I loved my H, but I just couldn't pull away from the feelings that I had for the OM - we went out, had fun, laughed alot, never really said that we loved each other - in fact I told him to tell me that it was "just about sex" - so that somehow that would make what I was doing okay. It's warped, I know, but at the time I was so confused. I knew what I was doing was wrong, I just couldn't stop it. The attention, the affection, whatever, it just boosted my ego at the time. The affair made me feel confident, sexy, attractive, etc. . .<P>Anyway, when I was out with my H before the EA went to a PA, we were joking around and I actually asked him "What would you do if I had an affair?" And he said "Hey if that's what it took to keep you happy, fine. I just don't want to lose you." Now, my H is a big family man, good values, etc. . .he thought I was joking, but I wasn't. I didn't tell him, but really, at the time I was reaching out to him. I wasn't ready to come right out and say - I'm having an affair, but indirectly, I guess, I wanted him to say "Have an affair? Well, I don't think I could share you with anyone. If you were with anyone else, well, I'd want to kick the ---- out of the guy." That kind of stuff. It was weird, it was like I was asking my H what to do - without giving him all of the information. When he gave me his "joke" answer - I took that as the green light to go ahead and have sex with theOM. I figured - well, if my H doesn't care whether or not I have sex with another man - than why should I.<P>I guess that's what struck me when I read your post - because I was kind of there. I know every situation is different, but for me, I didn't have the self-control within me. In a way, I was looking for someone to tell me what to do. I mean, I'm a big girl, I know right from wrong, I should have been able to stop myself, but somewhere along the line, I lost that ability. Was it a character flaw - yes. Was it low self-esteem - yes? Was it a mistake to have an affair - YES.<P>The thing of it is, I've always been a very successful person as far as work, school, sports, you name it. I may appear confident, intelligent, attractive on the outside, but inside, I guess I always looked to others to validate me and my worth. So, when the OM was saying I was gorgeous - I was like, great, I must be somewhat pretty if he is willing to be with a married woman. Its just weird.<P>My H was saying all of the same things the OM was - but I just didn't believe him. If you really love your wife, if it really bothers you to know that she was with another man, that this other man is going to be working with her - now is the time to stand up for your marriage. It is not right to have a relationship - whether emotional or physical - with another man outside of marriage. It's just wrong. If you love your wife, get some counseling, read through some of the books recommended on this site, post her, get help. You can have a very happy, healthy and fulfilling marriage, but you have to be the one to stand up for the right thing.<P>Unfortunately, your wife is very much like me. She fell for the fleeting moments of happiness in replace of true happiness. For me, the affair and what I got from it was only an illusion of happiness. True happiness comes from within - I know it is a very trite and old statement - but it really is true. You can tell your wife that she is beautiful, intelligent, sexy, etc. until you're blue in the face, but she has to believe it herself - otherwise, she will keep falling - if not for this guy, than any other guy that comes along and tells her she's pretty.<P>Trust me. I was exactly where your wife is now. . .I think she is truly reashing out to you. At one point, the OM asked me "Why be married?" Meaning, if you're out with me, why be married at all. And that got me to thinking about marriage, and why I got married in the first place. I love(d) my H, I wanted to have companionship, and to me, marriage is forever. I was very confused at the time - never really understanding how bad or how low my self-esteem, self-control really was, but now I do.<P>My H and I have gone through the things on this site - complete honesty, open communication, meeting needs, no contact, etc. . . But the one thing that meant the most to me - that my H was willing to fight for me, to fight for our marriage. He didn't want me to keep seeing the OM, he didn't want me "stay" in contact with the OM, he basically told me that he didn't want to share me with anyone - and that meant more to me than anything - as far as my self-esteem is concerned.<P>So, I guess my advice, if you truly love your wife - stand up for what you believe in. Try to get counseling, try to work on rebuilding your marriage. You both have made mistakes along the way that you regret, but try to learn from those mistakes.<P>My H and I - I think - are one of the success stories on this site. I went through absolute hell on earth to get to this point. I mean, talk about low self-esteem before the affair. Once I realized the magnitude of what I had done, the cruelty and pain that I put my H through - well, for a long time, all that confidence, ego boosting that I had gotten during the affair - all came crashing down. I never thought that I would be the "type" of person to have an affair - I may not have been the prettiest or the smartest girl on the block, but I always had my integrity. After the affair, I no longer had that. Any self-respect that I did have for myself was completely blown. After confessing the affair to my H - well, that was the hardest thing I ever had to do - but I am so glad that I did it. Gauranteed: If I hadn't have told him, I would not be alive right now writing this post.<P>See, it's kind of like eating a candy bar when your hungry. At first, you feel great, you feel happy, you feel alert, but once the "sugar-high" wears off, you find that you're in worse shape than before you ate the candy bar, and you find that you're still hungry.<P>I guess I finally realized that the affair may have made me feel good at the time, but I still didn't feel any better after it was over - in fact, I felt hideously worse. I even tried to kill myself - not once but twice. I was a mess. But, I also realized that I didn't know what caused me to have an affair - most of it came from my own weaknesses, but I think I was also vulernable spiritually. Throw in that I thought my H didn't truly love me, well, I just went sailing of course - with no light on the horizon. <P>But my H has been great - I call him my beacon. He was the one who was solidly on ground, leading me home. We've done really well getting through all pain and hurt that my A caused, but we're doing it together. The one thing that we both recognized was that instead of growing closer together - somewhere along the lines we grew apart, we maybe took each other for granted. . so we're trying to fix that.<P>For me, right now, I have absolutely no interest in any other man than my H, and I am a totally different person than I was over a year ago. I am a much stronger, confident, self-assured and happy person today - but I think that came mainly from doing the "right" thing. I stopped "eating candy bars," chasing illusions, doing temporary things to make me happy - and focused on "eating a balanced diet," doing whatever it took to have a lasting relationship - loving relationship, passionate relationship with my H.<P>Anyway, I don't know if this helped, maybe it gave you "food for thought" at least. I think you DEFINITELY need to tell your wife that letting her go "be with" this other guy was a mistake on your part, that you love her, that you don't want to lose her, that you would like to get marital counseling of some sort to figure out what went wrong, that you'd like for both of you to read "Surviving An Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley, and that you really do not want her to have contact with this OM - that she may need to get another job to end contact, but more imporantly, that you do not want her to be with this guy OR ANY OTHER guy - that you want to be married to her and only her, and that if their are problems in your marriage - that you want to work them out.<P>If you can have a midlife crisis at 32, I think I had one. That does not justify what I did - not at all. What I did was wrong. The thing is, you have to decide whether or not you love your wife enough to fight for your marriage. Did your wife manipulate you? Yes. did your wife have an affair? Yes. So, what do you want to do about it? If I were you, I would try to rebuild your marriage. But you cannot send conflicting messages to your wife - you do not want her to be with another man at all, that you want all of her - you don't want to share her love. You need to recognize, too, that you made a mistake in "letting" her go be with this OM - even once. You need to tell her how much you love her, but you also have to let her know that that kind of behavior is not good for a marriage.<P>Anyway, I know this rambled. The point is, it doesn't matter what excuse your wife gives - she had an affair. You know she manipulated you, but you need to stand up for yourself, your values and your love for her - and she needs to understand that as well.<P>

I am seriously disappointed in the responses advocating "leave her or throw her out." This is not "divorce builders" this is Marriage Builders. This is the place where people come to talk about their marital issues in the hopes that some of us can support or help them find their way.<P>"If there are no kids" AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! I need to tell you that not having kids is NOT A GOOD REASON to get divorced!!!! Divorce is devastating to all involved - friends and family of the couple as well as both of the members of the marriage! It isn't only children who sustain permanent emotional damage from divorce, we all do.<P>There are few good reasons to divorce. This is NOT one of them.<P>Mark4, listen to Hope5, Just Learning, Learning Life and - ESPECIALLY - to SKM. SKM, from the sound of her story, knows more about where your wife's head may be than anyone else here. It is NOT too late to save your marriage. Read everything you can on this site, and see if you can get your wife to read this site also.<P>Good luck - please talk to us again!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Thank you all for your advice. I still am mixed up about the whole situation and what happened. I wrote her a letter telling her how much I love her and that I don't want to share her with anyone else.<BR> I asked her last night about their relationship. She said that there had been some attraction, but nothing worth losing our marriage over.She said there had been potential there, but nothing is going to happen. She said she dosen't know what they are to each other.I don't know if I am makeing more out of it than it was. <BR> See, she is saying that it was just a fling for us. To make things exciting for our sex life. We have had little sexual adventures before, but never involving other people. We had fantasized about one day being with another couple, but never acted upon them. She said that she never wanted to act upon them and I didn't either. Then out of nowhere, she says that was what she was doing with this guy.I didn't even know this guy existed. It's not like I encouraged her. At the time she told me I could get with another woman to make up for it. I thought about it but I didn't want to feel like I was trying to get a girlfriend. I didn't want her to have an affair and me have an affair.<BR>See, I guess if it was just a fling and a one time thing I would be ok,because we shouldn't have been fantasizing about her and another man.(but we never talked of her just picking up someone after work) but she kept asking me what I would think if they got together again. If it was just about improving our sex and he wasn't any good then why would she want to keep getting with him? I asked her and she never really answered me.<BR> I guess I can't tell if this is a "me and her thing" and he was just there or if this was a "her and him" thing and I gave them permisson to have an affair. I asked her this and she never really answered me. <BR> I know it all comes down to trust. I have to trust her or there is no point in being married.I don't know how to feel or react because I don't understand what happened or what is happening now in our relationship.<BR> <BR> <BR>

Mark -<P>From my perspective, I think this is a her and the OM thing - but it involves all three of you. Personally, even a one time hook up under the auspice to "improve your sex life" is too much. I understand the whole thing about "swingers" yadda, yadda. But marriage is between two people - not three. I think your wife needs to decide who/what is more important to her. Right now, she can say she is just having a fling to spice up your sex life - but come one! Their are other ways to spice up your sex life. Personally, the A for me was not about sex at all - I mean I was attracted to the OM, we did have sex, but it was the emotional side of things that was hard to separate. The fact that she still wants to see him - well, I think she is emotional attached to him - if not now, she soon will be turning to him or some OM to meet all of her needs - not just the need for better sex. If she wanted better sex with you, why does she need to have sex with OM? I guess I just don't understand.

SKM,<BR>How was your husband able to get you to accept and believe his compliments of you? In your earlier message, you said that(like my wife)when he complimented you, you just thought that he was your husband and had to be nice and say those things. Its like my compliments and words do not mean as much to her as others. I printed a copy of the emotional needs questionare and gave it to her, but she still hasn't filled it out. <BR>

I will keep this pretty short. There are many twists and turns in my story, just ask anyone.<P>Be careful. This is how it started with my wife. She wanted to get together with someone at work, I said OK, she left 5 months later, leaving me and 2 children.<P>Please do whatever it takes to work this out. And that does not include her keeping him. <P>Good Luck to you. I hope it works out.

Hi Mark:<P>As I was reading over the replies to your post it occurred to me that several members referred to your wife's actions as manipulation on her part. That is possible of course, but it seems to me more likely that she is trying to find a way to rationalized her own behavior by viewing it through the "rose colored glasses" of "trying to jazz up your sex life." You kinda set yourself up for this when you discussed mutual relations with another couple. <P>The question is now "What do you do now?" Well, it's kinda like putting "Pandora" back into the box once you've released her. I think at this point a firm line is necessary.<BR>Tell your wife how you feel and try to get her to try to explain why she has this need to experience other men. She probably has not really explored the subject herself but has been chalking her feeling up to "needing something else" when actually what she is missing is inside herself. Whatever the problem..address it or get her to counseling...because it is not just going away. You've had your wake up call...get going. If there are things you need to do to help her feel better about your marriage...do them...there's lots of help here for you. <P>I wish you angels and prayers - Faye

Mark -<P>To answer your question about compliments. . .Before the affair, I never really believed what my H had to say as far as "You're beautiful, you're not fat, you look great, you're sexy, you're intelligent, you're the brightest woman I know, etc. . ." He said that and "I love you" all the time - I just didn't believe him. It wasn't that he wasn't sincere, I just thought he had to say those things because he was married to him.<P>How did he get me to accept the compliments? He didn't. It kind of came from within. I don't really understand it myself, and I don't really know when it started, but for me, whenever I was "fishing for a compliment" well it was because I was looking for someone else to validate me, validate my worth. I didn't believe I was pretty - so when my H told me I was, well, I just blew it off - as you have to say that, you don't really mean it cause your my H.<P>But when the other man said I was "gorgeous" - one measley word, one time -I floated on cloud nine. Why? IT wasn't because I believed it, I was just flattered by the compliment. For me, my problems came from lack of believing in myself. I was always looking for that compliment from someone else because I didn't believe it of myself.<P>But, the greatest compliment my H ever gave me was when I told him about the A and he said to me that "He didn't want to share me with anyone" and he meant it - I mean it wasn't contrived to make me feel good - it came right from his heart. He was angry, but his statement was full of love - it that makes any sense.<P>I was pretty pitiful for long time after I ended the A. But gradually, as I started doing "the right thing" I suddnely began to feel better about myself, happier with myself. I no longer see myself as a monster. I know I'm not perfect, but I can accept the compliments now - because I have developed some self-confidence while going through the process of ending the a, recovering my marriage, and recovering my life.<P>So, I don't know that there is any way for her to accpet the compliments you give her -but I do think you need to stand up for your marriage. I mean, if you really want to be married to her, and only her, she needs to end contact with the OM and you two should probably look to get counseling.<P>Not filling out the EN questionnaire - well, my H and I both did that, and it was very interesting. And, I guess, that's why I think you need to speak up - tell her that you don't want her being with other men - that she's too important to you, you need her and only her - that kind of thing. I think if she's "putting off" doing the survey or other things with you - it's probably an indication that her heart isn't in it - it's somewhere else. It doesn't necessarily mean that things are over - not at all, but you - as the rational one - need to lay down the law. You don't want to push her away, but you need to stand up for your marriage.<P>I think the only way you can get her to believe the things you say - are if she believes them herself.

So,two weeks ago, my wife and I talked everything over and I gave her a letter saying how much she means to me and that I don't want to share her. She still says that the OM doesn't mean anything to her and that she would not risk her marriage over him. She says that she can understand why I would have a hard time trusting her, but that I could. She hasn't mentioned him since. I don't know if they no longer talk to each other or if she just doesn't tell me. I just don't know what to do now. I want to know what is going on at her work, but I don't want to keep bringing him up if she dosent. I don't want to make a relationship out of something that isn't there. I'm sure they still see each other around work because it is a small company. She's pretty much dropped the "wanting to be sexy" talk. She asked me if I wanted her to quit her job. We really need the money though and if there is something going on between them, that really wouldn't stop them from seeing each other. How can I know what is going on in her life without sounding like I'm giving her the first degree and without sounding like I'm accusing them of still being together?<BR>If it really is over and it was just a fling, I don't want to keep it going or push them closer by my lack of trust.

Mark,<P>She has volunteered to get a new job. You should encourage this. The fact that she sees him everyday is cause for major concern. He will be there waiting in her mind, her heart and when you mess up as everyone does, who do you think she will turn to?<P>I cannot tell you the number of people here who have been through the affair business and "no contact" seems to be the most effective way of ending the affair. The arguement that she would just see him anyway, is not valid. She may be telling you the truth as it stands right now, but seeing him everyday, talking with him everyday, is emotional bonding. <BR>I doubt very seriously that your W did it for the sex. She admits going out and making out with him in a car before she asked you to let her have sex with him. Mark, she is more hooked emotionally that she is physically.<P>I am disturbed about several things that you post. It seems that you two have not had a real talk about how this came to happen. You have apparently not sat down and reviewed your marriage, your behavior, and tried to find out what has led to this behavior. Mark she is getting something from him that she isn't getting from you, and I don't mean the sex.<P>You two need to seriously review your views on marriage, each other, and your needs. You have done nothing to solve this problem except say you are unhappy. Somehow, I doubt she thinks the marriage is in jeapordy but it definitely is.<P>So do some reading and then do some talking, the pot is still simmering and it can come to boil very easily. Neither of you have seem to have done much to move it off of the fire. Oh! and the trust thing. You don't have to trust her, in fact you should not trust her. Nowhere does it say that a married couple must have blind trust in another. Trust comes with commitment and demonstrable behavior. And as you now know can be easily destroyed.<P>So hang in there, see if your W will change jobs, and then go to work on yourself. Something is missing here.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Mark, You're right that you are in a mess.<P>Co-workers/neighbors/affair partners who stay in proximity...and you know your W & the OM had at least the parking incident & the one-nighter...have a difficult time ending it or having it remain ended.<P>My H's former OW is a co-worker. He doesn't see her often, but he sees her. They broke off & resumed 3-4 times in 18 months, were "great friends" for years before that. Last affair contact was 10/99, but there have been conversations, emails, & probably phone calls since. But, for the most part, he sticks to "no contact" as well as he can. And she's with someone else, which helps. However, there's enough emotion there that she was deliberately in my face at one of the Xmas parties and he didn't so much as put his arm around me. And we're definitely in recovery. <P>If your W is willing to find another job, encourage it with everything you've got. You're right that they could still contact one another, but the constant daily or even anticipated intermittant contact/opportunity wouldn't be there. They'd have to plan for contact, which gives at least a little slice of reality with schedules, work.<P>Your wife may indeed be telling you the truth that it is over...time will prove her right or wrong. My advice is for you to Plan A (which in part means your lack of trust isn't in her face, but your needs as to her behavior are known to her) and to seek counseling for the 2 of you. This site offers phone counseling with Steve Harley. Go without her if she won't go.<P>And I agree with JL, trust really doesn't need to be your concern at this time. She doesn't deserve it right now. That might be harsh, but it is realistic. And, if her actions prove to be trustworthy over time, your trust will build, really whether you want it to or not . That's where I am, 3 years after the affair began, 10 months after our last reconcilation...I'm feeling some trust because he has been accountable with time, email & voice mail passwords and his actions and words line up (not 100%, but the majority of the time) regarding that I am the one he wants.<P>Your situation has a lot of hope to it if your W is telling you the truth.