I need the advice of others on this board regarding the following.<P>Quick synopsis: stbx affair started 10-99. Separated 3-00. I am custodial parent. Two children, 7 yo son and 2 yo daughter. I moved 150 miles away from stbx 7-00 to be closer to family. Divorce progressing slowly. Plan B since about 10-00.<P>Here is the current issue. I feel my son slipping away from his mother. He broke down again last night. He fears that mom will never come back to live with the family. He complains to us whenever he has to go up there, although he is afraid to say anything to her for fear she will further abandon him. When he goes up there (3 weekends a month), she usually schedules herself to work. He literally cheers whenever he does not have to go see her.<P>Last night, while we were talking, he said that he asks her if she is going to come back. She always says that "Mommy and Daddy are having problems." Well (and I have not told him this), we HAD problems. I feel that her saying this leaves him with the impression that eventually we will not have problems, and will get back together. I don't see that happening.<P>Then I asked him if he would like me to speak with her about this, and his answer just broke my heart. He said, "Yes, I think it would be better coming from an adult rather than a little, tiny 7 year old." (He really does talk like this.) He seemed so small and vulnerable, all I could do was hold him while he cried.<P>So, my dilemna, do I break the plan B to discuss whether there is any hope for reconciliation, or just discuss how we handle this with our son, or just let it lie.<P>Thanks for the input

Gramps,<BR>This is where I break with the Harleys on strictness of plan b. My kids had many of these same kinds of issues. And my H would never see it because they spent so little time with him (2 wkds/mo ususally - he is 300+ miles away) and as they said to me "there as some things you just can't talk about with people you don't live with".<P>I opened this up by asking my H if and how he would like me to let him know how the kids are doing with the separation. He told me he wanted to know "everything". Since then, I always tell my H when the kids had problems dealing with our separation - whether it was crying themselves to sleep or whatever. By the same token, I tell him when they express to me what a great time they have had with him on a weekend. I try to report "just the facts" which is a challenge - but one I am somehow able to meet for the kids sake. I never prescribe what he "should" do, unless I am asked. I am just sharing info he does not have access to because he is not here.<P>I have seen his fog lift somewhat as it regards the kids. He has established more regular visitation with them. He is reliable and spends good time with them when they visit. He has taken steps to take responsibility for his relationship with them. They love visiting him. Whereas before (when I shielded him from everything) he was much more "woe is me". Expressing sentiments that the kids don't really need him, he doesn't feel like their father etc.<P>I would advise talking with your wife, as you have here. You may open it by asking her if she would like to develop a more open dialog about the kids. I guess if she refused, there is not much you can do. But likely she will say yes. Calmly explain that your son is distressed when he visits her and she is busy elsewhere, that he has told you he feels he cannot talk to her about it, and that he expresses to you his sadness - and that you wanted to let her know these things. <P>Just my thoughts. As the custodial parents, we are the ones the kids look to to "make things better". While we can't ultimately control how the other parent establishes the relationship with the kids, I sleep easier knowing I am doing everything I can to facilite things - just like I know I did all I could to save the marriage.<P>Good luck,<BR>Starpony

grandpabri:<P>The Plan B "no contact" rule is really there for two reasons:<P>1. To protect your remaining love for your spouse from their poor behavior<P>2. To completely stop from meeting their needs, so that they become dependant on the OP for all their needs being met.<P>I think that you ought to approach your wife regarding what your son has said. She needs to know, and you should try to figure out a way to handle it together. I don't think you should bring up reconciliation unless she does, however.

I don't understand how parents can possibly Plan B, I'm sorry.<P>I realize that it can be easier for the adults involved, but I cannot imagine how it's better for the children.<P>Kristin's father and I have always managed, through a rough marriage and rougher divorce to realize that we were parents first and both of us were responsible for our daughter's health, physically and emotionally. I do not believe that it can be healthy for a child to see their parents not speaking or barely speaking to each other.<P>We made certain the the other was invited to all "special" gatherings, birthday parties, etc, even after we were involved with other people. We were a "united front" where she was concerned. He has been at our home on Christmas morning to watch her open her "Santa Claus" from the time we separated (she was very little) up until the last couple of years when they decided to spend Christmas Eve day together instead. I fixed brunch and he brought his mom or girlfriend or nobody. <P>Problems with Kristin, difficulties she had, we always discussed, worked together and talked with her together. We agreed on tactics and implemented them. It was OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS BOTH HER PARENTS to make this transition as easy as possible for her and to let her know that both of the parents she came from were united in wanting what was best for her. Even my drug-addicted ex realized how important it was to maintain a good relationship for this little girl's sake.<P>I'm sorry, I'm stepping over the line, but this is a sensitive subject for me. I've been listening to a 17 year old boy (Kristin's boyfriend) whose parents divorced when he was 18 months old. He's having a hard time now and his parents, who live in the same town, have, in essence, Plan B'd themselved to death for 16 years and now when he needs them to work together, they don't even know how. I think it's deplorable. He NEEDS them to work together. He adores both his step-mom and his step-father, but he needs his parents to be able to talk right now. They don't - or won't. And I think it's just plain wrong.<P>Ok, enough from me. Sorry, Gramps. She's his mom. She will always be his mom. Whether or not she distances herself from him, don't ever think it's best for him, 'cause it's not. And one day it'll come out. Please talk to this woman, work with this woman. Plan B is to protect the love you have and possibly make her "see the light." I sorta figured that you've both decided divorce is the way to go and you're planning a life with the other woman in your life (but I could've missed something, I'm not around a lot). If this is the case, Plan B is useless. <P>Ok, I'll shut up now. I'm sorry. I've been listening to Kristin's b/f, I have a friend near 40 who's just building a relationship with her estranged father and trying to get over resentment for her caretaker mother for Plan B (for lack of a better term.). It's sad. It makes a difference. It DOES matter. Parents MUST work together, divorce should not change that.<P><BR>You're pretty smart from all I've seen. You'll know what to do.<P>Lori<BR>

Plan B is NEVER intended to be a permanent relationship between separated parents of children. If you read Surviving an Affair completely and carefully, there is nothing that says if there are problems with the children the other parent is not to know. Only you can decide what the issues are regarding your own children. Plan B is for you if you have any hopes for your marriage to be reconciled. If you don't have such hope, say after a long separation or after you are divorced, and are truly moving on, then there is no reason for Plan B any longer.<P>Parents CAN Plan B and SHOULD Plan B if they still want reconciliation. There is no reason why messages cannot be carried through the third party contact, or be in writing. BUT ONCE IT IS TRULY OVER... if parents do not cooperate and maintain an amicable parenting relationship, it is no longer Plan B - it is simply wrong.<P>Lori, I agree with you to a certain extent... but if Plan B was going to ensure any kind of chance of the reconciliation of a child's parents, it needs to be done. It would be far better for the child to endure a time period of no direct contact with his parents resulting in reconciliation than for the constant contact to result in an openly hostile relationship between the parents. Plan B serves a threefold function in that respect, and K didn't mention the third function: To allow you to lose your love for your wayward spouse little by little without having to constantly have your nose rubbed in their affair. Isn't it better to Plan B and retain a healthy respect for your WS than to create the hostile environment of a still very hurt BS having to constantly deal with the affair of the WS?<P>There are plenty of marriages that break up over other things than affairs. In most of those cases, a Plan B approach is inappropriate. But Harley's success shows that there is a better chance for a marriage, PARTICULARLY one with children, if Plan B is used when 'necessary.'<P>The preceding message is my NSHO (Not So Humble Opinion) and y'all may disagree as you wish! <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Sorry ... my soapbox obscured my view of my original intent...<P>Even though I ranted just now about the necessity of Plan B, I DO believe, grandpabri, that it would be completely appropriate for you to talk to your little boy's mother...<P>If my opinion means anything <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I agree that you should try to talk to her, but don't count on her caring. My son is old enough and willing to talk to his father about how he feels, on occasion, and it has made absolutely no impact. His father does not show any interest in any problems they may be having, related to divorce or otherwise, unless the problems result in an annoyance for him. He doesn't have a whole lot of interest in any of their accomplishments, either, apparently. <P>

Terri -<P>I think that's exactly what I was trying to say, you just did it better. However, one thing I have seen on this board every now and then is "Plan B" used, not for reconciliation purposes but simply to make the life of the betrayed "easier". The hostility you mentioned is a choice. Being hurt does not give one the right to behave in a hostile manner. If the WS chooses to indulge in it, the BS does NOT have to participate. And we all know that an argument can't take place with only one person. Now, as a betrayed, and having been divorced b/c of violence AND infidelity, I can certainly understand. I do not, however, feel that any parent has the right to hide from their own pain at the expense of their child. And, I'm sorry, it has happened. Not always, and the WS's are not always cooperative as Nellie says. But if two parents profess to love their children, they can work together for the good of those children, no matter what has happened. I'm sorry, I can't give an inch on that one. This is an emotional issue and that's just where my emotions lie.<P>I'll shut up and go away again now. Terri said it nicer...I just know that, many times, if you don't start right away working together (Like Kristin's b/f's parents), it simply gets harder to cooperate with each other down the road and too many times, it never happens. The custodial parent, because it's a lot of trouble discussing thins with the other parent, simply "handles" them and the other parent is left out. I AM the custodial parent, I know how easily this can happen if you don't guard against it. Not to mention the "I'm the one HERE, it should be my decision" mentality. Been there, still there sometimes. But I do know it's been better for my child that we didn't behave that way. For once, I think I did something right, even though it hurt like He$$ sometimes.<P>Bye again. I'll go away now.<P>Lori<P>

I CERTAINLY never intended for YOU to go away, Lori! <P>I hope you mean that only in a figurative sense (going away now)... I tend to get on my high horse or on the soapbox every now and again about things, and I know that sometimes I can be a bit overbearing (HA!!! understatement of a lifetime), but I am trying hard to overcome that!<P> <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

YOUR high horse!!!! LOL How do you think I broke both my legs!!!!<P>No, I didn't mean literally, although I'm not here all that much anyway. I think we're thinking a lot alike on this one, it's just too emotionally charged for me to talk about reasonably!!!<P>I came back here just to read and see if I got outta hand. Yup, I did, but I'm not sure how to fix it and still say what I mean. Oh well......<P>Hope I didn't offend.<P>Lori

Thank you all for your replies.<P>Nellie, it happened just as you predicted. When I described his behaviors, no reaction. When I told her that I thought she was losing him, no reaction. Even when I told her that it was his idea to call Tiana "mom", all she said was, "That's to be expected because you spend more time with him." The only thing she seemed to be concerned with is that he was not acting out in school, that his grades were OK. Well, sure they are, but he breaks down once a week, sobbing uncontrollably.<P>I am willing to share with her the children's lives and how they are doing, problems and successes. But with reactions like this, what is the point.<P>Lori, you don't know how lucky you are (or maybe you do) that your ex took the initiative to continue to be part of your daughters life.<P>Well, in the immortal words of Super Chicken, "I knew the job was dangerous when I took it! Buck buck buck buck."<P>Thanks for listening

I thought it was kinda funny. . .<P>I intercepted an e-mail from my husband to his girlfriend. It goes like this: "Sweetie, my son's counselor says that his problems (which were, at the time, lack of toilet training at age four, extreme agression and rage, a near-autistic behavior) are because of me! Can you believe that?"<P>My husband blamed me for me son's problems, because I was raising him alone (after my husband left for a military school where he met his girlfriend and subsequently asked for a divorce to be with her) and I was therefore responsible for my little boy's psychosis.<P>I broke my so-called plan B and phoned him concerning my son's problems. (At the time, I knew nothing of marriage builders, I just knew that he didn't want me anymore and speaking to him hurt too much. It resulted in nothing but a screaming match, anyhow.)<P>My husband assumed that because he was happy in his affair that the whole world was happy and that life should be functioning perfectly. He couldn't possibly have been the cause of the extreme grief that our child felt. However, my phone call was what prompted him to come home and see what "I had done" to our son so that he could take him away from me(he threatened often to do so--however, he probably couldn't have the freedom to wine and dine Miss Kitty had he done it) and to punish me for my shortcomings as a parent. What a suprise he got when our son's therapist told him point blank that the reason our child was acting crazy was because his father had left. It got him to begrudgingly recommit to us.<P>Although. . .he told his girlfriend: "The only reason I am staying with 'her' is because of my son--that is the only reason."<P>I must really be a real hunk of dog duke if that's the way he really feels.

Gramps - he didn't....not for a while.<P>In fact, when she was little, I answered the phone while she was out in the pool. It was her father. He had called to tell her that he was moving on with his life...SHE was part of his past and he was only concerned about his future..she was not part of that future, so he wanted her to know why he wouldn't be contacting her.<P>I did NOT let him tell her that and I have NEVER told her what he said....nor a lot of other things as well.<P>I FOUGHT for a while to keep him involved. I DROVE several hours every other weekend so that he could meet her and maybe just take her to McDonalds for lunch. I waited and then took her home. He was no different than most of the people you read about here. I did NONE of that for him - all of it for her. I threatened him with all sorts of harm so that he would "show up" for a while. <P>She'll be 17 soon. I'm glad I did. She's happy, healthy, bright and secure. He eventually woke up and started behaving like he should. I might add that in all these years (12, I believe) I have received exactly $560 total in child support payments. He's out of state, we're managing just fine and I have never used that to control visitation...except to threaten to take him to court if he DIDN'T see her!!! LOL<P>I just felt Kristin needed this and if I loved her, I'd make sure it happened for her.<P>Sorry that his mom is behaving badly too. She will regret it one day. He will suffer for it. Good luck to you.<P>Lori

Thanks, Lori.<P>I have been through this before as the WS. I can't believe that I did all of these things my current WS is doing to me. Last week, I went and apologized to my 1st wife for all of the feces that I put her through.<P>Now excuse me while I vent (just a short one):<P>It has been raining hard for two days (well, hard for Southern California). Stbx returns the kids after her weekend and daughter does not have any shoes on. "Are the shoes in the bag?" She says "they were tight." Are the shoes in the bag? After asking two more times, "No, they are not." Well, why do you take it upon yourself to decide what our daughter has when she is with me. You just bought her a new pair of shoes, don't you think it is in her best interest to have the shoes you just bought available so that she can wear them? Do I have to give her to you naked to ensure that you don't keep the stuff I provide? Whenever you have asked me to provide clothes for her, I have done so, no questions asked. Please extend me the same courtesy.<P>Sorry, fingers just fly on their own sometimes.<P>Time to call and get son a therapist appointment.

Your post made me laugh! I remember a weekend that almost exactly the same thing happened - shoes and all. It was January and freezing here. I was beside myself and furious!! The difference was he had left her shoes out in the rain 'cause they were muddy and he called to tell me he had to buy some more so she would have some to wear. Wanted to make sure I'd pay him back first!!!! And then, he kept them at his house and still asked for the money!<P>Good luck. He's a lucky boy to have you as his dad. And congrats for the apology to XW. That takes guts.<P>Lori