Well it is another Saturday night and I am on this forum and not working on my marriage. You guessed it, H moved out again tonight!!!<P>A quick update: H told me there were problems in 11/99, d-day was in 5/00, H served me with D papers in 8/00 and was due to move out in 11/00. I have planned A my heart out for most of the time. <P>He came out of the fog for the first time in Nov. and then changed his mind back and forth so many times in Nov. and Dec. that I seriously have lost count. He moved out 2 days before Thanksgiving, but continued to waffle. He moved home the week before Christmas, but left again 2 days before Christmas. (I certainly can't accuse him of staying only for the holidays!)<P>Then in the middle of Jan. he said he wanted to come back again because working on our marriage for a year or two with the hope of happiness at the end look like the best scenario to him. We have 6, 4, and 2 year old boys and he missed them desperately too.<P>He told OW that it was over and she called me the next day to apologize! I really thought that this was it and that he knew it would be tough work and take a while. He was really nice for 2 weeks and then I could see him withdrawing. He finally told me earlier this week that he just didn't think he could ever regain any feelings of passion for me and that he felt like he was dying every day. I suggested that this might be withdrawal and that it was a little soon to expect his feelings to have changed, but he is just so sure that they can't change. I think this is probably complicated by the fact that he is convinced that what he feels for OW is something that he has never felt for me and he just can't see that we could get there.<P>If he really thinks that he should be able to get his feelings back for me in a couple of weeks, what in the H*** did he think was going to take a year or two to work on??? How in the world can he expect anything to get better in less than a month -- he stopped even trying about 2 weeks ago.<P>When I asked if OW was still in the picture he said no, he was making this judgment without her in mind. I called him on that since I know that she would come running if he called even though she moved back in with her H and 2 kids after H called it off in Jan. It is also painfully clear that he is dying every day because he is comparing me to her and I just don't measure up to the fantasy.<P>We did talk to Steve Harley a couple of times, but H refused to believe that his feelings could ever change.<P>So H left again tonight even though he promised the kids when he came back that he was going to be here forever. I guess that promise was no more important than those vows 17 years ago.<P>Intellectually I know that this is his problem, but emotionally I feel like a pretty big 0. I am fairly nice-looking, but he has made me feel like a nonwoman. I find myself hoping that my love turns to hate soon so that I can feel better even though I know that is a poisonous route.<P>I have no idea what the future holds. As always, I suspect I'll survive, if for no other reason than my precious children, but all I see is a life of lonliness out there for me.<P>Sorry this got so long, I needed the therapy.

Exhausted,<P>I've not been posting as much lately. Not much new, and also been really busy with work. But tonight, I came on here and saw your post. I was most saddened to hear what happened. I knew you were busy with recovery and weren't on much lately, but wondered how it was going. I'm really sorry to hear this latest news. I did not want to see this and feel very sorry that it happened.<P>This letdown is something that I do not know the feeling of, as you probably know, because I have never got to that stage. But I can only imagine how awful it is. You will survive, and you will not have a life of lonliness, regardless of what happens.<P>I would suspect that OW is involved in this more than what he has led you to believe. It sounds like you suspect that anyway.<P>He certainly isn't being realistic regarding his feelings, and how quick he thought they should return to where you both would want them to be. Don't give up. Continue your resolve and your strength that you've shown all along. I know it isn't easy. Your strength has given me strength. You've put up with alot.<P>I wish I had some magic words to help you, but I don't. As always, you know that we are here and want things to work out for you. Do you think you'll talk to Steve on your own to get his thoughts on it?<P>He must still be in the fog, because how else would one explain his waffling around over this. And promising the kids that he'll be here forever now. He is confused.<P>Take care of yourself and focus on the kids.<P>

I'm so sorry. . this must be devastating! I too have heard the promise to my children that "He's here to stay". Then have it broken, it breaks you heart more for them that for what he's doing to you doesn't it?<P>I'm sorry to say, I don't know how long you've been in Plan A, but can you 'hang a little longer"? He's so funky right now, can you keep it up?<P>And as far as you being a "big fat 0", you have to know that you're not, I mean, look at what you're doing. . fighting for your marriage, fighting for your family. 0?? I don't think so. Sometimes I think of it like, I'm going to be the strong one right now, maybe someday you'll do the same for me. <P>Fight, fight, fight!! Maybe think of it as he can't live with himself right now, he can't live with his w/d feelings. . I know that's something that Jim has a hard time with. Because he doesn't feel he's being fair to me. Can you think of it that way?

Exhausted, it's NOT you, IT's HIM...please remember that one.<P>He's not comparing you to her, but the fact that you have been there always, a wonderful wife, and many times, the WS will need some type of 'chase', that's what they're feelings are based upon, I'm 100% convinced.<P>They are looking for some elusive thrill, and unfortunately, marriage doesn't always have that factor. Maybe I'm off base here, but that's what I've seen, and it's what seems to be what your H is going through. Don't ever feel like a non-woman (I have so much felt like one too!), just realize that they don't have a grip on reality (they REALLY don't right now). <P>Once I found that I actually LIKED myself, even LOVED who I am, I became much more accepting of whatever things I couldn't change. You are a VERY worthwhile and wonderful person. And you better not forget it.<P>

It sounds like your on the emotional roller coaster I'm on. When my wife left she said she didn't feel the passion anymore. Then she wanted to work it out, then she didn't,then she did and then she didn't and so on and so forth. Again just last night she stayed with me but tonight she is thinking about how she feels again. She expects the passion to come back in one night. Don't give up I havn't. I hope things do work out for you. I look at it this way, As long as she is willing to work it out some of the time then that is better than not wanting to at all. Each time she wants to work it out the time span gets a little longer so I still have hope and as long as your husband keeps coming back to work it out then you will eventually.

Thanks everyone! I feel much more calm this time. (I can't believe I just wrote that.) In a strange way I feel a lot of sadness for him -- he has admitted several times that he will never be happy without seeing his kids every day. He has consigned himself to that unhappiness and a possible lifetime of guilt. I think the rejection and lonliness I feel will be easier to handle than his burden. I have regrets about the past, but I also have a clear conscience going forward. I just wish I didn't have to see him. Does that sound like it is time for Plan B? I think I'll talk to Steve this week about that!

I'm glad you are calmer this time. I would be interested in what Steve has to say if you talk to him. I would rather not have to see my wife as well, at least based on this weeks feelings. For me, it is more of a general disgust over what she is doing, and knowing that she still lies all the time. I'd rather hear nothing than lies.<P>Anyway, hang in there and keep us posted. I'm sure there is more to come. I wish it could all be good.

Exhausted, I think talking to Steve Harley is a good idea. I'm now in Plan B, at his suggestion, after only a brief time in Plan A because of all of H's ambivalence about going or staying. It is such a painful thing to deal with. Now that I'm in Plan B, things have gotten worse in some ways, but he also seems to be realizing the impossibility of creating a longlasting relationship with OW. Unfortunately, kids don't even seem to be a factor, unless he's just feeling too ashamed to face them. Sounds like you've really been giving Plan A your best effort in very difficult circumstances. I also empathize with that feeling of being nothing. OW is 28 yrs younger than me, although overweight, unfeminine, and unattractive. I really feel like a big 0, too, since I''ve got kids, home, family, history on my side and he still is choosing her.

Dear Exhausted,<P>You are not a 0. You are a wife and mother. Right now you may also need to be his friend. Eventually he will come to realize that as more important than what the OW is giving. Patience and love is a hard combination to give at this time, but if the WS needs to learn life's lesson the hard way, you may have to let him. <P>I know how you feel, My H has been on that roller coaster for 6 months and I have been on the ride for the last 3. It is hard. Sometimes, there is progress and I try not to get my hopes up to high, lest they come crashing down again. <P>Hang in there with the rest of us. We will be there to lend a hand if you let us. <P>It really hurts when our spouse tells us they feel more for the other person than us. But it is true (for them) at least for the momment and our denying it creates more pain for the us. One day when the fog or vog lifts, the WS will see who really has the true love for them and then they will have the opportunity to reciporcate. <P>In the meantime, keep in mind patience and love. Your children can be your source of strength. Show your love to your children, your WS will see that and it may help him come back. <P><BR>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Exhausted - you're doing terrific considering the curve balls being thrown at you. He's clearly on the fence and he's there because of what you have done so far. Keep being yourself - no one can do it better and keep those precious kids at the foremost. I have confidence you can keep going. If you feel like you can't go on any more, Rick and I will come cheer you up. OK?<P>Dave

Exhausted,<BR>I'm so sorry. <P>I've been in your shoes, my H moved in & out 7 times with a total of 14 months out of 21 months that we were separated. I found it a soul-sucking experience. I did Plan A (sometimes quite well, sometimes not) for about 18 months through the first 5 reconciliations.<P>The last 2 times he left me the co-worker OW wasn't really in the picture...but between withdrawal, depression, guilt he didn't feel he could stay in the house. He's been home 9 months now, and my 15 (it was the day after her 13th birthday when he left the first time--something he had forgotten, but she never will) year old told him this past month that she will never forget how he broke his promises that he would be home "for good" so many times. Your kids aren't quite at such a knowledgable age, but any kid wonders why dad isn't sleeping with mom.<P>I'm glad you've got an appt to talk to Steve. If you didn't, I'd advise you strongly to consider Plan B, or beginning to act "as if" divorced. But I trust that Steve will have a good answer for you.<P>In any case, it is possible to survive many separations and try again. But you may get to the point where that is not what you want to do...and I can tell you it is much tougher to try again once you've given up. Still possible...but tough. Counseling for you and for H if he wants to come back is imperitive.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Lor,<P>I thought of you this weekend and hoped I was not fated to break your record! My "love bank" has been empty for quite a while. I have been operating on sheer force of will -- I am very stubborn! I feel an almost desperate need to put my needs on top now so I am guessing that Steve will lead me toward plan B. <P>I think that H still thinks that he is going to go with us to Disneyworld in March so that may be the first rude awakening to the new me. I'm sure he'll see it as my fault instead of a natural consequence of his rotten behavior.<P>I have really appreciated your support. You are one strong lady!!! If (and that is one pretty big if now) H ever wants to come back, my first response to H will be to say that I need to see what Lor says He needs to do first!! Thanks again.

Exhausted,<BR>I earnestly hope you do not break my record Gad, I wouldn't wish that on anyone...however as far as I know the MB record is held by someone who doesn't come here much anymore--Usedtobecozy--was, I think, at 11 separations.<P>I'm glad if I have been able to help you, I know I have received so much help here. I can tell you how our reconciliations have gone, as I recall. I don't ever go back and read old posts, cuz if I've forgotten something, I consider that a mercy. From my wide variety of reconcilations, having tried everything from: <BR>1) asking for & getting joint marriage counseling for about a month before he moved home (Neither the counselor or I knew about the affair, so the counseling was a bit useless--the C would get us to fighting about "micro-management" something apparently someone in the C's life was giving him fits about).<P>2) a formal written agreement after his affair confession (didn't work that time)<P>3, 4) H just starting to spend nights with out much talk or expectation (ugh, didn't work either time, confusing for the kids, and it was like 2 weeks out, 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out...gack)<P>5) Huge fight, lots of threats, ultimatums on my part as I discovered the affair had been going on for separations 3, 4, 5.<P>6) Asked him to go to counseling, with a different counselor I'd been seeing by myself for several months, I waited about a week before letting him come home after he said he wanted to.<P>7) This was the longest separation at 5 months. I had discovered he'd been in contact with the OW and I served him D papers and took up with a male friend (don't do as I did... ). Bad news all around. He wanted to reconcile almost immediately. I didn't want to at all, but when we finally both got back on the same page, these were some of our agreements: I had to not continue with the divorce and stop seeing the new guy. H had to have no contact with OW other than work and then tell me, marital & sometimes individual counseling, be accoutable with his time, he volunteered email & voice mail passwords, his cell phone bill, take his anti-depressants (he's off now ). <P>At first I was so shell-shocked that I didn't quite expect him to carry through, but as he has, and now as trust is sprouting, it is an unsettling feeling. I think the last 3 separations did perhaps more damage than the affair did.<P>I don't consider us worst-case scenario here on MB (after all, he never lived with her, they didn't have a child, he kept in almost daily contact with me & the kids & was nice to us), but it was no picnic.<P>I think if I had kept on as I had...Plan A as well as I could, and not gone to acting "as if divorced" and quite honestly, it was no act, I wanted to be done, I don't know if my H truly would have realized what our divorce would be like. And he realized he did not want his life to be like that. I was no longer his best friend, his confidant, his lover. I was little more than a co-parent, as distant as I could bear to be, as I did/do love my H.<P>Just don't file for a divorce, unless you truly want it, because, despite how things turned out for me, it is more likely that you will get a divorce.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited February 26, 2001).]

Exhausted,<P>I was just wondering how you are doing now. Hope that the calm state is prevailing.

Rick,<P>Thanks for asking. I'm biding my time waiting to talk to Steve on Thursday. I'm still pretty calm until I have to talk to H about the kids. He still thinks he should see the kids when it is convenient for him, regardless of my plans or wishes. His needs are the only ones that count. Before, I was basically giving in to it as part of plan A and because if I didn't agree, he would usually punish me with some comment about my unreasonableness being the reason he left. <P>I'm not up for that anymore. The thread tonight about the misapplication of Plan A describes me to a T. I'm not sure I even like who I've become in some ways. I have lost a lot of self respect. I really need to have my wishes count again for my own self esteem. As a side note, my loss of some self respect probably doesn't make me that attractive an alternative for H either. <P>I expect that when I start to make my wishes a priority, H will get angry and I HATE THAT. I need to thicken my skin ahead of time so I don't chicken out.<P>What about you, are you thinking it is Plan B time yet? Did Steve Harley advise you on this?

Steve's advice for me was to continue Plan A. I think he was thinking of the affair dying a natural death, and me being there when that happens. Also considered was whether I could continue a Plan A, and I think I can, but the question lately is "at what cost". ie, will I lose any love left. Really, now I'm in auto mode, thinking only of my kids and how they'd rather a united family. I just look at my wife and shake my head.<P>I spoke to Steve about a month ago. Maybe he'd change his advice now, but I'll wait a bit before talking again. Can't do it too often ($$$). The thread on Plan A certainly gets you thinking. In some ways I want a Plan B, because really, I'd rather not deal with my wife now. She is too bizarre and lies all the time.<P>I know we can all tweak our current plans and make improvements, but I hope you don't beat yourself up too much. I've derived inspiration from you at how you have handled things, and look at what you do with your kids. You are amazing, and you can bet the kids see that. So sure, things can always be improved (ie. Plan A/B), but you aren't on a walk in the park, so it isn't easy. You are on a ridiculous roller coaster, and are hanging on.<P>Your "I HATE THAT" statement applies to me as well. I can't stand when someone is mad at me. It has always caused me to avoid confronting something with my wife that I should have. I'd be subjected to the same anger if I started to put my foot down more.<P>Anyway, regarding Plan B, it has been in the back of my mind for some time now, but hasn't gotten any further. I just figure I'll know when it is right. I also know that it could suddenly become right quite quickly, depending on what happens.<P>Look forward to hearing what Steve says to you.<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Exhausted:<P>I expect that when I start to make my wishes a priority, H will get angry and I HATE THAT. I need to thicken my skin ahead of time so I don't chicken out.<P>Make your wishes a priority. Don't let him have free access to the boys; you can do this without even going to Plan B. He needs to live in the world of his making. Of course I never did manage to do this, I would have if we had not moved, & you know what a wonderful success this has been.

Dear Exhausted,<P> I am so sorry for what you are going through. About your H's anger, yes, he probably will be very angry when you go to Plan B but Plan B will protect you from that somewhat...(because of the minimal contact). <P>I was in Plan A too long (5mos.) and when I went to Plan B my H couldn't believe it ....he was furious that I made him leave and that I cut off all contact(except about kids, very businesslike). I really, really thought it was going to be over.....BUT it woke him up big time. <P>Plan A let him continue in his waffling, fantasy ,affair world and nearly drove me over the edge....Plan B was a big dose of reality for my H. (I also set the money up ahead of time and set up what weekends he could have the kids etc)........Hang in there, Exhuasted....LU