Since I learned of the affair I asked my wife to stop communication with the OM. <P>I have been sifting through phone bills and have learned that she has not.<P>I am dying inside here and I don't know what to do.. I am so mad and angry.<P>Plus, at this stage she is not making much effort on us at all. She is cold and emotionless. I don't know if she even really wants to try.<P>Where do I go from here and how do I handle the obvious contact she's having.<P>K

Karl I may not be a lot of help compared to others but hang in there. I too felt like I was dying inside but I eventually began to heal only after all contact with OP was stopped. You need to demand that this occur and follow Plan A and even Plan B if needed. Both Plans seem very hard but you need to do what is helpful to you at this time. My prayers go with you and hope you find some light at the end of this dark tunnel.<P>------------------<BR>Healing in NC

Karl - your demands to stop the contact will not likely work. You cannot separate them - they have to do this themselves. Now is the time for you to take a look at yourself and see what you were doing to contribute to the environment that permitted the affair to occur. Plan A is all about improving yourself - not about breaking them apart. The best thing you can do right now is back off, leave her alone, and demonstrate your improvements as you make them. Do not pressure her, do not discuss it unless she wants to. It's hard, I know. You are dealing with a sort of temporary insanity, an alien abduction. You cannot apply normal logic because it doesn't work. Consider a session with the Harleys to get the professional opinion. Until then, ask specific questions here. Answers will come.<P>WAT

Sorry, I know you are hurting. It takes a lot of strength to keep fighting for your marriage under these circumstances, but it cn be done. You might get something out of reading K's story...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000143.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000143.html</A> <P>Hugs--<P>Kathi<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl:<BR><B>I have been sifting through phone bills and have learned that she has not. I am dying inside here and I don't know what to do.. I am so mad and angry.</B><P>Karl, I answered your last post and raised some questions....but this new piece of data really moves your situation onto the critical list. There is the very real possiblity that the affair never needed, and your wife is spending half her time living in a distant city with the OM.<P>You need to talk to Stve Harley on an emergency basis. Call the counseling center here at 1 (888)639-1639, explain your situation, and get an emergency appointment.<P>I wish you well, and you are in my prayers. But please get immediate professional help on this. Steve is quite simply the best professional in the United States for this sort of situation. there is no simple answer to this dilemma, and your correct action may lie between filing for divorce (as a wakeup call) to playing it very patient. There are many factors to consider in picking the right action, and Steve Harley is the pro.<P>Call him. And don't take any action or inform your wife of your knowledge until you get some counseling with Steve.<P>Mike <BR>

Thank you all for your wise thoughts.<P>Even though I was climbing off the walls from the phone statements, I decided to control my emotions this evening and try to have a sincere, deep conversation with my wife and see if I couldn't make some Plan A progress. <P>It went very well, and it is obvious from our conversation that she still really loves me but is very very hurt and confused. She feels huge amounts of self-hatred for her actions our EN history and says she can barely think about it.<P>It's also obvious that she seriously doubts whether I REALLY love her after all this and the past year of pain resulting from the residue of an affair. Also, she became more proactive about counseling and agreed to set things up for the following week.<P>So I told her my gut tells me that she's still communicating with OM. She sincerely says that she has not since the time she told me about his last call. Unfortunately I do not recall when that was and don't have a date to coorelate.<P>So. I believe she is sincere and will work to resolve the issues with me. But.. I am not going to be a fool again. I will have new copies of her latest bill sent and see if she is lying to me or not.<P>If she is, I probably won't say anything about it, but I will know that she doesn't believe she can be honest.. of which tells me I need to do MORE Plan A work.<P>It will kill me and I am still really hurt & angry inside.. but for now, I see some sincerety from her and want to make a safe place for her to tell me what I already know. If she does I know we are making real progress. If we don't get there I will know that it is all based on lies. Then I can go from there.<P>I think the rest needs to unfold in counseling.<P>With respect to her being away for work.. I have insisted that she give me her hotel room # and we speak each night. So far that has been going ok. I have also decided to go to the city and spend one evening a week with her there. <P>I think one of the bigggest challenges will be that when she is away she looses the momentum from our weekend time. I want to ensure that she keeps me insight.<P>What do u folks think? Always looking for more good insight.<P>K<BR>

Karl,<P>Hang in there...I know how excruciating this is brother....I'm there with ya. What has worked for me is to take the pressure off a bit. By that I mean set a timetable, like three months or six months for the contact to end.<P>Don't tell her that she's got a timetable or that this is an ultimatum. Instead, explain how hurtful contact is to you, and how it is impossible for you to heal and become a better person as a result. Then, your conversations with her ought to be about her....her self-hatred, etc. She doesn't think you love her because she doesn't think she's worthy.<P>Keep the focus on her healing and try to "swallow" some of your needs for now....that's where your own counselor come in....someone to support you and keep you whole throughout.<P>As for your "visits", try to make them fun and not always filled heavy relationship stuff, and definitely NOT checking up on her. Despite the temptation, it is a real LB.<P>I'm really impressed with how well you're doing. Good luck,hang tough.<BR>John<BR>

Thanks for all your support and wise advice. <P>I have been holding myself in check and working on Plan A.<P>Since I posted, we have been talking constantly and even having fun. I have arranged to send her roses at work for tomorrow.<P>She has made some very considerate gestures and I am pleased to see the progress. We are interviewing local counselors now. Do you have any solid advice on how to pick a good counselor for these matters?<P>However there is a huge hill to climb here and I see months of work ahead of us. But she's worth it.<P>The hardest thing is the emotional ups and downs day to day. Not letting my down moments drag me in more LB stuff.<P>Right now, I am hoping to select a really good counselor.<P>K

Karl,<P>Here's a link from the MB site on how to select a good Counselor <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html</A> .<P>Determining if contact is still continuing can be mind boggling. For the most part you should just assume that until she tells you that she is re-committed to you marriage that contact is still continuing. Using that approach you can attempt to stop expending energy digging, and emotional burden of knowing for sure. Very easy to say, very hard to do. BTW - This is what Steve H had advised me to do when I was in your situation.<P>Another way to look at it that I found helpful was, To look at the situation like my wife and I were just starting to date. Nothing exclusive, just date. I assume that she was probably dating others as well and that's OK because nobody can hold a candle to me. A bit twisted but it helped me keep from being more intense than she could handle. Only big problem with this self-mind game is I was exclusive.<P>If you're like most of us here, looking the other way while assuming that the contact &/or affair is still continuing will be beyond difficult and almost impossible. (Especially with the distance factor). I have to get the kids up and take them to school, but later today I'll share some of my snoop techniques with you.<P>If you have a chance to respond before, could you tell me some more info like?<P>1. How far away is the other city, time wise?<BR>2. Do you still get access to all her bills? (cell, credit cards, calling card, etc)<BR>3. Does she generally stay at the same hotel?<BR>4. Does she fill out an expense report for these traveling expenses?<BR>5. Have you started to keep a journal yet?<P>Later,<BR>Mike<BR>

Karl,<P>OK…I'll try to remain brief. <P>Remember if you're trying to Plan A, this info gained from snooping will make it all the much harder. I understand to all things come a time and a place, So use at your own risk.<P>Keeping a journal helps tie your observance of her mood, interaction with you and where abouts (story) with data (bills & receipts) a month later when they arrive. It will also help you to track any common cycles over time, which is important, because eventually you'll be looking for a difference.<P>Hotel receipts can tell a wealth of info. I hope you're listed on her credit cards. If not go shop for rates and sign up for new ones in both names. If she fills out an expense report the hotel detail is normally included along with individual meal & bar. Room service is a great indicator. Look at the charges vs. what your wife would normally order (1 pot of coffee or 2, bowl of cereal or a plate of fruit and a plate of muffins). Need the menu to get an idea of pricing then call the restaurant and have them fax you a menu. Tell them you have special dietary needs and wanted to check before your stay. Can't get access to the "real" hotel receipt and only see the creditcard summary. Then call them up and dispute a charge, you can pose as yourself, the payroll firm who handle's her payroll. Tell them your copy is a bad photo copy and illegible and ask them to fax, if they don't agree then ***** about another charge and keep them on the phone eventually they will all cave.<P>Cell Phone - she got one? If not buy her one…great gift. Use both your names and get detail billing. AT&T wireless allows you web access to the detail call log and usage. I really don’t know the lag time between phone usage and web posting but the use they word "current" in the advertising. <P>Follow cash withdrawals as well. <P>People who work in the hotels, bars and restaurants where she entertains can also provide some good info. This only works in person and after you've used the establishment. Bartenders, hostesses, check-in and check out clerks can all help if properly motivated (cash/tip). You are definitely play with fire at this level. Any person you talk to could potentially tell them on their next visit about your asking anything at all. I would stay completely clear of this one unless these workers were a long time acquaintance and you were a very regular customer. <P>Basically at the end of the month go back and fill in the receipts and phone records to the matching journal days. Make sure you keep the receipts and phone log in chronological order. Now you can go back a replay that day with some hard data. Did she tell you she was out to dinner with a client but no receipts for dinner? Heavy on the breakfast and coffee next day? Helps build a story one way or the other. Unfortunately if she is not being real open and offering a lot of info to ease your mind then good chance that there is something other than your feelings and security on her mind. <P>A question to consider when you reach the point of these information quests is "What am I gaining from this other than another reason to leave her? What does it mean if I find nothing at all and I still felt like I needed to do this"<P>Lastly don’t ever use any info you've gained for discussion or negotiation. The only time I time I would consider divulging this type on info would be the proverbial "last talk". <BR>