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Question: When our WSs tell us all that crazy stuff like "I love you but I am not in love with you" "I am leaving you because I don't want to hurt you", etc. Do we really know what the WS really means?<P>For example, what is the WS's definition of Love? Why is it important for the BS to correctly understand WS's definitions?<P>Here is what I have learned. My H said made the above statements. I racked my brain trying to 'reason' with him and lost everytime. Why? Because we were using different definitions. When he said love he meant something totally different from me.<P>A week ago, I finally asked H, ok what is your definition of 'love'? His response was: "A feeling between 2 people." And??... That was it. That is all H had to say. <P> ******Lightbulb!!!********<P>Boy, my definition had more to it than just a feeling. My definition showed that love was a feeling and an action word. Love was a feeling that grew into love when deeds with care and compassion where excercised towards others (wife, husband, children, etc.). <P>Based on that revelation, I learned not to assume we were using the same meanings. The "A" dictionary is very limited in its definitions. Gotta be a small dictionary, because they (WS & OP) keep using the same words and phrases over and over again. Sorry for being a bit sarcastic. <P>But this insight allowed me to work with H. I showed him love by deed and feeling. It seems to be working. H is noticing that the OW's 'love' is shallow and incomplete. OW is making attempts to show love but without true actions, she is falling short everytime. I told H (this could be a LB), that the love he has with OW is an imitation one and I am only interested in true love, the real thing. In fact, I told H that I am glad he does not give me the same kind of love that he gives H, I don't appreciate imitation love. <P>Any thoughts or comments to help me further is greatly appreciated. Just wanted to share my stuff. <P>Have a nice day. <P>L.<P>

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Hi Orchid - I think you are falling into the trap that most of us fall into early or intermittantly during the affair. We try to make sense of what they are saying and drive ourselves wacky because we can't. We may as well be speaking a different language. We are trying to use logic with someone who is temporarily insane. It's like trying to reason with a drug addict about his/her addiction that they deny.<P>I know, I know, I'm one of the worst offenders of trying to analyze what's going on based on my wife's comments, but fortunately someone on the forum gives me a blast and I stop.<P>It would be beneficial if WSs would have the simple decency to develop their own fog-ese to speak so we won't get sucked into the analysis trap.<P>WAT

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wow that really opens my eyes. I've been trying to figure out what my wife was feeling and her comments. She said the same thing. that she loved me but wasn't in love with me. I've been trying so hard to figure it out and now it finally dawned on me. She doesn't kow what she is feeling or saying. Thanks alot. your post really helped

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Okay, it's Friday, and I feel like having some fun. As a former WS, here is the "WS Dictionary" - at least from my FORMER perspective. Please note that I am no longer in the fog and am clearly working on trying to rebuild my marriage, but here's some definitions, if you want them:<P>Fog - Thinking irrationally, but not being aware of it, because, well, I'm being irrational. For example, you may hear statements like: "What are you talking about? There is nothing going on; or, I think I love this person. He/She walks on water. I have never met anyone more perfect than this one single individual. He/She truly is my soulmate (see below)."<P>Soulmate - The person who finds fault with nothing that I say or do; the person who thinks I walk on water; the person who loves me even though I act like a selfish two-year old the majority of the time; the person who thinks I'm the greatest.<P>No Contact - If I don't call the other person, that is no contact. If the OP calls me, that is considered unsolicited contact, and thereby does not break the "no contact" rule because I didn't initiate the contact.<P>"Not in love with you" - I don't feel like a giddy, sixteen year-old when I'm around you anymore.<P>"I love you, but I'm not in love with you" - See Fog, above. <P>Complete Honesty - Telling the honest answer IF you ask the right questions.<P>Disrespectful Judgements - Statements you make all the time; I however, only offer suggestions on how you can meet my emotional needs.<P>Lovebuster - Something similar to a dust buster - only rather than sucking up dirt, it sucks up my love for you. A lovebuster would be you telling me that I am wrong when clearly I am right.<P>Trigger - Wasn't that the horse the Lone Ranger used to ride? I don't know what triggers are, because I just want to forget about everything.<P>I don't know - I don't have a clue.<P>

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SKM - too funny!! Friday in my office is slow. We started a lottery to guess how much snow we'll get in the storm predicted for Sunday-Monday. I'll enter you if you want. Send your prediction.<P>Dave

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Hi SKM,<P>You know as funny as that sounds, my H has made some of those statements. When do you think it might be a good idea to share it with him? He is suppose to be moving back home this weekend (you can see my response on 1,2,3,4 Help!! - Need responses NOW on the recovery site) but things are a bit shaky. <P>As always, you have given valuable insight and even with a sense of humor. Have you ever thought of being a writer? Just kidding. <P>Take Care and have a nice weekend. <P>L.<BR>

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I think that when you are right in the middle of conflict (The WS and BS) it is hard to step back and be objective; especially if you are still in love with your spouse. When the WS says, they love you, but aren't in love with you...means exactly that. As a person...they care about you...as the mother or father of their children...they care about you...but the in love stuff means they don't get that warm and fuzzy feeling with you, they don't want to sleep with you anymore, they don't want to be intimate with you, they don't think about you "that way" any more. It hurts, but that's what the WS is talking about. As far as the hurting stuff goes...they believe that the love they had for you is dead, so why stay together when the WS doesn't love you anymore.<P>I know that marriage is more than warm and fuzzy feelings...but if you think back to what it was like to fall in love...the early years...you can relate to what the WS is experiencing right now. I'm not saying it is right, but put in the most simplistic terms...their glans are holding the rest of the person hostage.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lonelysoul (edited March 02, 2001).]

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Orchid -<P>Me, a writer? Sometimes, I feel like I'm at a loss for words. . .NOT [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]. If you're H is just now getting ready to come home - I think I'd wait a couple of years before I showed him my definitions - he may not appreciate them too much right now.<P>WAT -<P>Snow predictions, they're predicting snow? Have you been outside yet? It's gorgeous, nice and mild - didn't even need a jacket. But put me in for 3". I always like more, but want to be realistic.<P>Lonelysoul - I know what you're saying. As a former WS, I gave my H the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you line." And, that's how I felt. I loved him like a good friend, we even had "marital relations," but I just didn't feel - passionate - like I was kissing my brother or something. But now, that I am out of the fog, I truly can see how you can have those "in-love" feelings with your spouse - they can be re-captured, or dusted off - if you think it is possible -that's the key. Many WSs have a fatalistic view - I know I did - that if I lost those feelings I would never ever get them back no matter how much I tried - but I'm proof positive that you can feel that way about your spouse again.

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SKM,<P>I may be brain dead today but what happened in your relationship (if you can tell - will respect you even if you can't), that brought back the love for your spouse that disappeared during the A?<P>My H says over and over that he never was in love with me. Yet, that is not what he said before. See, when we first got together he had just come out of a painful breakup with his 1st fiancee (guess what, same name as current OW and in some ways similar personality - very sexual, agressive, sweet talking, dual personality and needy women). This left him devastated and I did not treat him that way. It took almost 2 years into our marriage for him to get his first fiancee out of his system and then he told me that he now knew he really loved me because I had showed him what love really meant. <P>Guess he forgot that part because now he says that he was never in love with me. Yet in both cases (of the OWs), he says they scare him yet excite him. If anyone treated me like that I be running away as quick as possible, but then again that is my personality. <P>I am confused. <P>L.<BR>

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I have wanted to get in on this one for a while, but had to wait for the weekend. I think we should put this one on the notable posts. Anyway, here are my nominations for the WS Dictionary:<P>"I want to be completely and totally independent"-I don't want to be dependent on you emotionally anymore, but feel free to pay the rent and all other bills while I spend my money on OP.<P>"I don't know if I want to be married anymore"-I don't want to be married anymore, but I'm not quite ready to leave yet.<P>"The kids will be just fine"-I don't care how the kids will be as long as I get what I want.<P>Complete Honesty-I don't think you have any way of checking the facts, so I can tell you anything I want.<P>"I'm sorry"-This statement is often misconstrued. It does not mean "I am sorry for my actions" or even "I am sorry that I hurt you," but really means "I don't understand why you are reacting the way you are. Can't you see that I am a special person and normal rules do not apply to me? You are feeling emotion X? Get over it."<P>"I don't want anything from you"-Watch out, I am going to try to take you to the cleaners in divorce court. Child support, spousal support, etc.<P>More to be added as time permits.<P>

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Hey All,<P>I wouldn't bother trying to figure out what they are saying as they have no clue what way is up. Believe me, I tried and it got me nowhere. Give it time, the fog lifts and maybe, maybe not you are still interested.<P>Oh, and BTW. "Trigger" was Roy Roger's horse. The Lone Ranger's was "Silver". I think Tontos's was "Sam" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

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Medic - Damn, how is it that all you guys know the names to the horses in those old westerns? At least I was close! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Orchid - I usually take the "weekends" off from MB and just saw your question. I'm going to try and give a short answer here - yea, right - but the way I got those "feelings" back for my H was not anything that my H was doing for me. I finally stopped being selfish, started doing things for my H - to meet his needs. It made him happy, and making him happy in turn made me happy. I sat around for months after I had ended the affair - waiting for my H to do or say ANYTHING that would make me "Fall in love with him again." I was getting frustrated, cause I knew I should be feeling something, he was being super nice, amazingly patient and concerned, understanding - he did everything right, but I still didn't feel anything.<P>About the smae time, I was praying, doing a lot of reading on infideility and also spiritual reading (books by Max Lucado and Charles Swindoll), and I think that's when I finally decided that being selfish, doing the "me, me, me" thing was not helping at all to make my marriage stronger. So, my "leap of faith" was to do things in a different way - think outside the box - start doing things for my H, meeting his needs, stop being selfish - and that's when things started to turn around for me, and those "in love" feelings. I had been trying really hard for a couple of weeks, sending love notes, sending emails, buying little tokens of affection, going to his sporting events - little stuff that I did before, but somehow it took on new meaning. Anyway, did this for a couple of weeks, and for the first time in a long time we "made love." It felt so good, so right that I actually cried. That was my pay-off for trying - to have that feeling was just a tiny spark - but it was the tiny spark that kept me trying. But, like a lot of WSs, I got stuck in "Waiting" for the feelings to come first. I really think you have to take action and then the feelings will come. You have to take a leap of faith - because I didn't want my H to get his hopes up (that things would work out), and at times, I felt like I was "faking" it - but I just faked it til I made it. It was really wild how things turned out - do something for someone else - it make you feel good - and the other person - and life is a little more pleasant. All of that just kind of snow-balled until I was actually contributing 50-50 with my H in rebuilding our marriage.<P>I think the other part of your question was what went wrong in our marriage to lead me to feel like I wasn't "in-love" with my H. . .My H and I were only married three prior to the affair. I think for the first year or two, I really had a hard time adjusting to marriage - They say the first year is the hardest - right - well whoever siad that was kind of right, kind of wrong. Honestly, at the beginning of our marriage I honestly think I was depressed and never really "shook" out of it. I didn't mope around all the time or anything like that - but it was like this huge change that I had trouble dealing with. I had low self-esteem to begin with, throw in that my H stayed up late, I went to bed early, he did paperwork when I wanted to play - I guess I just was missing something - it's not what I thought marriage was supposed to be like, and I had a hard time adjusting.<P>At the time of the A, I honestly was not looking to have an A - in fact I was terrifed of it. I was never dissatisfied with my H or with marriage. In fact, looking back on things, I never really knew that there was anything wrong at all. It was only after the A - that I got a wake up call - that hey things really aren't so great. Whatever it was that was missing - the OM gave it to me and well, then I knew something was wrong with our marriage. Looking back on things - I never ever blamed my H - I think the A primarily occured because I couldn't say no, I had low self-esteem, I had "history." I don't really feel like going into the "history" part, but I think it explains why I had a problem saying no, why I felt like I had no control over my life, and why I felt like I had to "please" people in order for them to like me. Had the OM not come on to me - I would not have had an affair. I wasn't looking for love in all the wrong places - I guess was I just vulnerable, but never realized it. It mainly came from my own problems getting out of control, and then when my H had to stay up late to do paperwork - or was unavailable - I guess I got to the point where I felt like I wasn't a "priority" with my H.<P>I think, really, my H and I, instead of growing together, we kind of grew apart - took each other for granted. I wish I could turn back the clock - know what I know now - but without the experience of having had affair, but I can't. We're going to make it - I know it. I honestly love him more today - because he HAS shown me that he loves me for me - for who I am not what I do - and that's all I ever wanted. My H used to tell me all the time how much he loved me, but it's like I never believed him - now I do.<P>Anyway, sorry for the long answer! And sorry about that Trigger/Lone Ranger thing. Had it been called a "Tigger" I would have known right away - Winnie the Pooh. But I don't know westerns as well as I know stuffed animals!

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Dear SKM,<P>Thanks for your reply. Hope you had a nice weekend. I got to deal with the flu and major events/confrontation happening (between OW & H) this weekend. <P>Your comments though, were just what both H & I needed to read. I have sent him a copy of (just your last comment). He is struggling at this point of heart over mind. We both need to talk but he is working 2 jobs. I am thinking of asking him to take the day off so we can talk. It is 9:30am now so I may have a chance. <P>May post more later under a new topic. Based on this weekends events and both of our emotional status', I am starting to feel the strain of this whole issue. I feel like I am beginning to lose the ability to want to keep fighting for this marriage. I continue to look for encouragement from posts here and others. They do help. Again your writeup was medicine at the right time. <P>Thanks, <P>L.<P>

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I have a Question. They all say the same things. Is there a class called cheaters 101. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKM:<BR><B>Medic - Damn, how is it that all you guys know the names to the horses in those old westerns? At least I was close! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Orchid - I usually take the "weekends" off from MB and just saw your question. I'm going to try and give a short answer here - yea, right - but the way I got those "feelings" back for my H was not anything that my H was doing for me. I finally stopped being selfish, started doing things for my H - to meet his needs. It made him happy, and making him happy in turn made me happy. I sat around for months after I had ended the affair - waiting for my H to do or say ANYTHING that would make me "Fall in love with him again." I was getting frustrated, cause I knew I should be feeling something, he was being super nice, amazingly patient and concerned, understanding - he did everything right, but I still didn't feel anything.<P>About the smae time, I was praying, doing a lot of reading on infideility and also spiritual reading (books by Max Lucado and Charles Swindoll), and I think that's when I finally decided that being selfish, doing the "me, me, me" thing was not helping at all to make my marriage stronger. So, my "leap of faith" was to do things in a different way - think outside the box - start doing things for my H, meeting his needs, stop being selfish - and that's when things started to turn around for me, and those "in love" feelings. I had been trying really hard for a couple of weeks, sending love notes, sending emails, buying little tokens of affection, going to his sporting events - little stuff that I did before, but somehow it took on new meaning. Anyway, did this for a couple of weeks, and for the first time in a long time we "made love." It felt so good, so right that I actually cried. That was my pay-off for trying - to have that feeling was just a tiny spark - but it was the tiny spark that kept me trying. But, like a lot of WSs, I got stuck in "Waiting" for the feelings to come first. I really think you have to take action and then the feelings will come. You have to take a leap of faith - because I didn't want my H to get his hopes up (that things would work out), and at times, I felt like I was "faking" it - but I just faked it til I made it. It was really wild how things turned out - do something for someone else - it make you feel good - and the other person - and life is a little more pleasant. All of that just kind of snow-balled until I was actually contributing 50-50 with my H in rebuilding our marriage.<P>I think the other part of your question was what went wrong in our marriage to lead me to feel like I wasn't "in-love" with my H. . .My H and I were only married three prior to the affair. I think for the first year or two, I really had a hard time adjusting to marriage - They say the first year is the hardest - right - well whoever siad that was kind of right, kind of wrong. Honestly, at the beginning of our marriage I honestly think I was depressed and never really "shook" out of it. I didn't mope around all the time or anything like that - but it was like this huge change that I had trouble dealing with. I had low self-esteem to begin with, throw in that my H stayed up late, I went to bed early, he did paperwork when I wanted to play - I guess I just was missing something - it's not what I thought marriage was supposed to be like, and I had a hard time adjusting.<P>At the time of the A, I honestly was not looking to have an A - in fact I was terrifed of it. I was never dissatisfied with my H or with marriage. In fact, looking back on things, I never really knew that there was anything wrong at all. It was only after the A - that I got a wake up call - that hey things really aren't so great. Whatever it was that was missing - the OM gave it to me and well, then I knew something was wrong with our marriage. Looking back on things - I never ever blamed my H - I think the A primarily occured because I couldn't say no, I had low self-esteem, I had "history." I don't really feel like going into the "history" part, but I think it explains why I had a problem saying no, why I felt like I had no control over my life, and why I felt like I had to "please" people in order for them to like me. Had the OM not come on to me - I would not have had an affair. I wasn't looking for love in all the wrong places - I guess was I just vulnerable, but never realized it. It mainly came from my own problems getting out of control, and then when my H had to stay up late to do paperwork - or was unavailable - I guess I got to the point where I felt like I wasn't a "priority" with my H.<P>I think, really, my H and I, instead of growing together, we kind of grew apart - took each other for granted. I wish I could turn back the clock - know what I know now - but without the experience of having had affair, but I can't. We're going to make it - I know it. I honestly love him more today - because he HAS shown me that he loves me for me - for who I am not what I do - and that's all I ever wanted. My H used to tell me all the time how much he loved me, but it's like I never believed him - now I do.<P>Anyway, sorry for the long answer! And sorry about that Trigger/Lone Ranger thing. Had it been called a "Tigger" I would have known right away - Winnie the Pooh. But I don't know westerns as well as I know stuffed animals!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

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Here's a bit of useless trivia from Westerns - Sky King's airplane's name: Songbird.<P>WAT

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Mon -<P>I don't know if there is a class or not. I do know that a lot of the things I said during and even after the A - are similar to things other WSs say. I thik each WS thinks that there situation is unique, that they are different - but really, they're not. The A was not "love" - just an illusion of love - I realize that now. I didn't realize that a year ago. I know I didn't attend a class, it "just happened." Guaranteed, you've heard that one before, too.<P>WAT - My H can flip through the tv stations - see a brief scene, and know immediately the title of the movie, the name of the main characters, the name of the actors, the director, and other useless trivia like the time period when it was made. He really is astounding. In fact, I think he knows more about old movies than my dad - and that's pretty incredible. I just watch, enjoy, forget.

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SKM,<P>Orchid, I apologize about "butting" in. Your posts had me reading from what I was going through and wanted to ask a quick question about being in the fog of withdrawal. The way SKM described it, is exactly what my W is going through right now. I am at a loss on how to "bring" her out of it. She tells me she knows she is selfish but wants to do nothing to get out of it. She is waiting for that feeling of being in love lightning bolt to hit her in the head. I get really frustrated that I can do nothing to help. She won't read books, counseling, talk to me, parents, friends, or family. She is just waiting. Did anything "happen" to you or did your H help you get out. I am looking for anything I can do just short of sitting her down and telling her that she is being selfish and that feeling just isn't going to happen. You have to work at it to get something out of it. I have asked others about "fake it till you make it". She has told me in the past that she "faked" it and made everyone happy. Now no more. She has asked again should she go back to doing that and I don't answer. She wants the feelings to be "real". I also LB quite a bit during these "faking" times. So I am sure that those feelings didn't bubble over. How can I sit down and discuss this with her? Any advice??

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myohmy:<BR><B>SKM,<P>Orchid, I apologize about "butting" in. Your posts had me reading from what I was going through and wanted to ask a quick question about being in the fog of withdrawal. The way SKM described it, is exactly what my W is going through right now. I am at a loss on how to "bring" her out of it. She tells me she knows she is selfish but wants to do nothing to get out of it. She is waiting for that feeling of being in love lightning bolt to hit her in the head. I get really frustrated that I can do nothing to help. She won't read books, counseling, talk to me, parents, friends, or family. She is just waiting. Did anything "happen" to you or did your H help you get out. I am looking for anything I can do just short of sitting her down and telling her that she is being selfish and that feeling just isn't going to happen. You have to work at it to get something out of it. I have asked others about "fake it till you make it". She has told me in the past that she "faked" it and made everyone happy. Now no more. She has asked again should she go back to doing that and I don't answer. She wants the feelings to be "real". I also LB quite a bit during these "faking" times. So I am sure that those feelings didn't bubble over. How can I sit down and discuss this with her? Any advice??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes!<P>I am tired of hearing it. At first, I was the one in the fog. I was thinking that my H would change but he has not.<BR>I am being think that the OW has done me big favor. He is a drunk. He wants the save the marriage and to be honest part of me dose too but, a bigger part of me can not take his lies and abuse anymore. He beated up over the other woman and has attacked several times if I accused him of seeing her which I do not care. I do not want that woman in my house and I will have her arrested for tresspassing if I catch her. There will be no problem with doing that since the house in my name only. There has to be something better out there for me. A man that I have know for quite a while has re appeared in my life. I will go out with him until my h leaves. I do not want to miss out on something wonderful. I gave my h thirty days and he is still there. The OW is always riding by house and I am tried of that too. <BR>It sounds crazy, but she spies on me for him.

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This is my first visit here and it's proving very helpful. Just wanted to say thanks to SKM for a much needed smile in a very stressful, confusing, and heartbroken time. Thanks again. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKM:<BR><B>Okay, it's Friday, and I feel like having some fun. As a former WS, here is the "WS Dictionary" - at least from my FORMER perspective. Please note that I am no longer in the fog and am clearly working on trying to rebuild my marriage, but here's some definitions, if you want them:<P>Fog - Thinking irrationally, but not being aware of it, because, well, I'm being irrational. For example, you may hear statements like: "What are you talking about? There is nothing going on; or, I think I love this person. He/She walks on water. I have never met anyone more perfect than this one single individual. He/She truly is my soulmate (see below)."<P>Soulmate - The person who finds fault with nothing that I say or do; the person who thinks I walk on water; the person who loves me even though I act like a selfish two-year old the majority of the time; the person who thinks I'm the greatest.<P>No Contact - If I don't call the other person, that is no contact. If the OP calls me, that is considered unsolicited contact, and thereby does not break the "no contact" rule because I didn't initiate the contact.<P>"Not in love with you" - I don't feel like a giddy, sixteen year-old when I'm around you anymore.<P>"I love you, but I'm not in love with you" - See Fog, above. <P>Complete Honesty - Telling the honest answer IF you ask the right questions.<P>Disrespectful Judgements - Statements you make all the time; I however, only offer suggestions on how you can meet my emotional needs.<P>Lovebuster - Something similar to a dust buster - only rather than sucking up dirt, it sucks up my love for you. A lovebuster would be you telling me that I am wrong when clearly I am right.<P>Trigger - Wasn't that the horse the Lone Ranger used to ride? I don't know what triggers are, because I just want to forget about everything.<P>I don't know - I don't have a clue.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 428
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Thank you, SKM, those were great. I really like the Complete Honesty one. My H is very good about that. He never tells me anything unless I ask the question in a very detailed and specific manner. I am still learning how to phrase questions to get the entire answer. I do have another one.<P>When you ask, "Is there anyone else?" and they reply "no," they are really thinking "No, of course there isn't anyone else other than the OP. That person is so great, no one in the world could ever be as wonderful as them." <P>See, the correct question would be, "Is there anyone that you are not married to that you are in love with?"<P>Thanks SKM for pointing all those differences out.

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