My H does not feel that he has commited infidelity, because according to him and OW they "only" meet (secretly and with much lieing to cover it)and kissed "only about a dozen times". He swears "no sex took place". I would love to here your thoughts on this!

The Harleys maintain that the spouse gets to deceide if its infidelity. So if you think that was being unfaithful to you , it was.<P>My take on this after my H having a friendship only affair ( at least that was all he would ever admit to) is that when they start to lie and hide it from their spouse, then it is an affair.<BR>Lora

BlueLou-There are Physical Affairs (PA) & also Emotional Affairs (EA)-EA's do not have sex, but the WS is so dependent on the OP for their emotional needs. .it's also an affair. Your H is trying to justify his behavior to you-and to himself possibly.<P>Stay here & keep learning. Plan A your butt off, keep asking questions!

My wife also told me that she and OM only kissed and hugged. She didn't really tell me, I saw her e-chat and she said no when I asked if she was having an affair with him. After reading many posts here, I have come to realize that she is actually having an "emotional affair". I don't think I believe that there was no sex. Just think for a moment, where did all of the kissing(I mean KISSING!!)lead to when we were dating. Yeah, I don't like to think about it either, but I can't deny it. Kissing is definitely the precursor to sex. Kissing other men or women after marriage is dangerous to say the least. I know how you feel and I wish you Good Luck!

Yup, it's infidelity. It's being unfaithful.<P>Kissing is a physical act of affection....and the definition of affection is "fond devotion."<P>So if he's "fondly devoted" to this other person enough to kiss her....regardless of any other factor....that to me shows infidelity. He should be only fondly devoted to you. Period.<P>It's not only the act that cause it to be infidelity, it's also the intent, the motive in his heart....he showed, by his lying, sneaking, and kissing....that his intent was not honorable to your marriage.<P>That's my take on it.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited March 02, 2001).]

I'd ask your H a simple question: If he had caught you say, a week after your marriage, passionately kissing another man, what would he have done?<P>If he were like most men, he'd clock the guy for kissing his wife!<P>If he caught you and another man swapping spit in your living room, would that be okay? Or would he throw the guy out of his house and treat you like crap for a month or two?<P>If you came home late one night and raved about how passionately your date kissed you, do you think your H might be just a little angry?<P>Drop those on him...see what he says!<BR>

A wise man said: "...everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." <P>Even the thinking process that leads up to meeting, having conversations, holding hands, kissing and having sex are included in acts of infidelity/adultery. My H met his OW on the internet. He claimed they were 'good friends' (at the time of my discovery of A.). The OW's e-mails talked about how she enjoyed him kissing her and how she looked forward to their next encounter (which was to be their first sexual encounter - I found those e-mails on our computer). Now H knows (I heard him tell the OW in what was suppose to be his no more contact call) that he & OW can never meet again because when they do that having sex is a requirement between them. That is how strong their attraction is. So to me kissing is just one step away from sex. All are acts of infidelity. Those who disagree in my opinion are in denial. <P>L.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>So to me kissing is just one step away from sex. All are acts of infidelity. Those who disagree in my opinion are in denial. <P>L.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Orchid, this is EXACTLY the way I feel about it! I get so ANGRY when I try to talk to H about this and he tries to convice me that "the worst thing that could have happened, didn't happen"! I've come to realize, from reading the posts here, that I must assume "the worst" and deal with it as best I can. I will probably never get the full truth. But I'm convinced that without "the truth" admitted on his part, the potential to end up back here in this position is very high. I'm sick of the lies!<P>Thank all of you for your comments. H tries so hard to make me beleive "your over-reacting" that I needed to know there are others that would see this situation as I do. It amazes me how much our spouses have already done that has damaged our relationships and they are still trying to tell us that we are over-reacting!<P>

Dear BL,<P>You have the correct logic. Remember WSs are not logical at this time in respects to how they are treating their families. They may be methodical in trying to hide their A from us but they expend so much time on lies and deceitful acts that they have little energy left to say and do the right things. <P>I am not sure where your personal beliefs reside, but that wise man who was quoted in my previous post was Jesus Christ, his words were recorded in Matthew 5:28. It was those words ringing in my ears that lead me to come to the conclusions that I did in the rest of my previous post. I orginally did not want to sound too religious but for me Jesus is a wise person and I highly value his opinion and direction. Don't mean to sound preachy. <P>I would like to share another thought with you. Previous to all this, my H was a religious man and a good husband. His low self-esteem though allowed his heart to wander down the wrong road. Even now, my H knows the above scripture and yet he is finding it difficult to work back towards what he knows is right. His internal struggle/conscience keeps reminding him of what he is doing wrong and I am glad that 'something' is still working. Even though he tried to put his conscience aside, eventually he had to admit that his A bothered him and knows that living that way will never make him happy. Now he is having to resolve how committed he can be if he is allowed to come back to his family. As much as he knows what he needs to do, being motivated to actually do the right thing is difficult for some (especially my H.).<P>Keep sticking by what you know is right and good. Your fine example can be of assistance in aiding your H to come back. If you would permit me another scripture, I would like to share with you one that encouraged me:<P>"For, "he that would love life and see good days, let him restrain his tongue from what is bad and his lips from speaking deception, but let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it." 1Peter 3 10 & 11. In fact this chapter talks about the responsibilities and respect that a husband and wife should have to maintain a good marriage. If I can show by my example to my H that I am continuing to work towards what is right, it might help him come back. No guarantees though, just something I know I need to do for myself. <P>Thanks for letting me post here. Writing this has been therapy for me. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

You know...<BR>Everyone knows...<BR>...what is right and wrong<BR>...it is written in your heart.<P>A kiss can be the most beautiful of signs...<BR>...it can also be the most ultimate of betrayals.<P>Seek the truth...<BR>...it will set you free.<P>Focus on the inner you...<BR>...for what relationship you can build...<BR>...not for "self"... but for humility of "self"...<P>Plan A... for it is the right way.<P> <P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B><BR>Even the thinking process that leads up to meeting, having conversations, holding hands, kissing and having sex are included in acts of infidelity/adultery.<BR>...Those who disagree in my opinion are in denial. <BR>L.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All the responses on this thread have been good IMO, and I particularly like this one. The process of a man and woman growing more intimate is a continuum--there's not an arbitrary line where it's safe on one side and not dangerous until you cross it.<P>IMO anyone of the opposite sex that you let meet important ENs is a potential threat to your marriage. I don't mean to say that you shouldn't have any non-spousal opposite sex friendships, but don't kid yourself. The danger is there.<P>One clear warning sign would be if a relationship detracts from how close you feel to your spouse, and from your desire to spend time with them. Such a relationship constitutes unfaithfulness to vows like "love, honor, and cherish".<P>I can just hear it..."I'm just kissing this OP to show how much I love, honor, and cherish you. Any reasonable observer would draw that conclusion from watching."<P>And anyone who buys that line needs some real help.<P>Steve<BR>

BL,<P>In my book the line not to cross is very clear and quite simple. Conduct yourself as if your spouse were standing next to you at all times. <P>If your spouse would not appreciate your form of interaction with someone of the opposite sex then you have betrayal. All couples have their own ground rules on acceptable conduct. Flirting is even over the line in my house, so kissing is way out of bounds.<P>Mike<BR>

Thanks everyone for your insight. You have all been very helpful!