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#904170 03/05/01 02:50 PM
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Well, let me say right off the bat that I'm the WS. I've been lurking this board for about three months now, and have been touched from the support that you give each other, and even to people like me.<P>I guess the best way to start off is to relate my whole story. I'll try to keep it brief, but accurate. I have so much bottled up to say... I hope I don't leave anything big out.<P>I'm married with a young daughter. My OW is currently married with a son and a daughter. Her and her H are mutually comitted to divorce (Sounds strange, I know). My wife and I have been married for 5 years, married when we were both 22 and had been dating for 6 years. Most everything in our marriage seemed fine, except that she had been wanting to have children. I was opposed to having children at that time, and so we went on.<P>Well, early last year, we found out that my W was pregnant. She claimed to still be on birth control and that the pregnancy was an accident. This sounded suspicious to me, but I took it at face value, but paniced big-time.<P>Yep, you guessed it. I reacted by having an A with her then-best friend. It started out as mutually supportive chat on the internet and over the phone. You see, at this time, my OW has having marital problems of her own. She was freaked out about her marital problems, I was freaked out about having a child. We found common ground in our situations, and were very supportive of each other. This is where the EA began.<P>From there, it escallated until it became an EA and a PA. Along the way, I found out from my OW that my W's pregnancy was not an accident at all. My OW did not volunteer this to me. I had great trouble prying this out of her. She had helped my W come up with the idea of skipping her birth control pills while leading me to believe that she was still taking them. Then, she helped my W conceal this from me.<P>I confronted my W with this, and she confirmed it to be true. It should be noted that at this point, I was still deep in the A, and that W did not know about it.<P>Well, this revelation pushed me closer to my OW. We continued on in our isolated bliss. We even told her H, and he was fine with it. He was the one who initially wanted out of the marriage, and he has since started dating. (Note: Over the course of the A I've come to learn just how messed up her marriage was) We even got to the point where we were talking about getting married after ending our current marriages. (Like that would not arouse any suspicion, right?)<P>I have since come to look at my daughter as a blessing. I was very scared at first, but she means the world to me, and I am trying very hard to be the dad that she deserves. (Though, I am obviously failing in some areas, eh)<P>Recently, my W discovered my A. I think she had began to suspect, even though OW and I thought we were very clever at hiding it. W and I talked about it, and she wants to work on our marriage. It almost sounds like she thinks that I had the A in reaction to the pregnancy and understands.<P>What do I want? I do want to save my marriage, but I am having *extreme* difficulty severing ties with my OW. We have 'broken up' twice, each time breaking down and beginning the A anew. I know this have everything to do with not having a 'no contact' rule in place, but I am having a hard time mustering up the courage to send that no contact letter to her.<P>On one hand, I want to end the A and get down to working on my marriage. On the other hand, I can't imagine my life currently without the OW in it. I guess I am also afraid what might happen to her when I end it. For one thing, she has been a stay at home mom (at her H's insistance) for the past 6 years, and has no marketable job skills to be able to provide for her kids (Though, H will help out with money, and she is currently attending college. Everyone involved is relativly young, ranging from 23 - 27). I also see how ridiculous it is to think that I can 'save' everyone involved. Though this sounds very cold, I cannot worry about her and her kids at the expence of my daughter.<P>She is also very emotionally tied up in our relationship. Like others participating in an A, we believe that we are deeply in love. She seems very, very emotionally fragile, and I am really scared of what she might do if I should break this off. She has recently begun to see a therapist, so I really hope that will help her out.<P>Reading these message boards has been a real eye-opener to me. I see a bit of myself in each and every WS talked about here, in what I say and do, in what I feel, in how my A has developed and progressed. It's a bit eerie, and even a bit uncomfortable, to listen in on your collective conversations because I could almost be reading straight from my own experience. It has really started to help me think clearly and see through the 'fog'.<P>I guess I am posting this to get reaction and advice, maybe to explain a WS perspective to everyone out there, maybe to warn off someone else who is currently having an A or thinking about having one. My OW and I thought we were unique, that we had a love like those that you see in movies or read about in romance novels. I'm coming to see that it is probably the biggest mistake in my entire life. The only thing that seems to come out of it is hurt and hard feelings. It's like living as two different people, and I am really beginning to dislike one of those people I have become.<P>Thanks in advance for your comments, etc...<BR><P>------------------<BR>OutHere

#904171 03/05/01 03:48 PM
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First off, let me say that coming here is a great first step. Welcome. Now I'm going to comment on some things you said:<P>>>Well, early last year, we found out that my W was pregnant. She claimed to still be on birth control and that the pregnancy was an accident.>> This happens often and it is totally wrong. Keep in mind that many OW will play the same game.<P><<<I reacted by having an A with her then-best friend.>>> Let's just say that with such good friends your W has no need of enemies. Grrr.<BR> <BR><<< My OW did not volunteer this to me.>>> Of course not. She wants you to think of her in a psoitive light.<P><<<She had helped my W come up with the idea of skipping her birth control pills while leading me to believe that she was still taking them. Then, she helped my W conceal this from me.>>> Sounds like she might have had her eye on you well befeor the EMR began.<P>I confronted my W with this, and she confirmed it to be true.>>> At least she told you the truth.<P> (Note: Over the course of the A I've come to learn just how messed up her marriage was)>>> Many Ow love to talk about their messed up relationships. That way the MM get to feel like a knight in shining armor, rescuing her. VERY common.<P> We even got to the point where we were talking about getting married after ending our current marriages. (Like that would not arouse any suspicion, right?)>>>Lots of fantasy talk goes on in these relationships.<P><<It almost sounds like she thinks that I had the A in reaction to the pregnancy and understands.>>> Isn't that basically why you said you did it?<P>What do I want? I do want to save my marriage, but I am having *extreme* difficulty severing ties with my OW. >>> <P>You just have to do it! Your W is giving you another chance. This woman was just as deceitful to you as your W was You are caught up in the drama of the affair. It is not a real life situation. Everything is romance and forbidden love and all that garbage. No bill paying, grass to cut, trash to take out etc.<P>On one hand, I want to end the A and get down to working on my marriage. On the other hand, I can't imagine my life currently without the OW in it.>>>> Your W is giving you another chance, you are lucky. As far as imaging your life without OW, real life usually doesn't measure up to fantasy life. My H moved in with OW and eventually ran screaming home, begging for forgiveness. The grass was NOT greener.<P><<I guess I am also afraid what might happen to her when I end it. For one thing, she has been a stay at home mom (at her H's insistance) for the past 6 years, and has no marketable job skills to be able to provide for her kids >>> Uh oh. Knight in shining armor syndrome big time. H's exOW also pulled the "I'm a poor struggling single mom BS" Sounds like her H is glad to be rid of her. Wonder why.<P><< Though this sounds very cold, I cannot worry about her and her kids at the expence of my daughter.>> It's not cold, it's the way it should be. You have a family which should be your first priority.<P>She is also very emotionally tied up in our relationship.>>> As I'm sure your W is in your relationship. <P><< I'm coming to see that it is probably the biggest mistake in my entire life. The only thing that seems to come out of it is hurt and hard feelings. It's like living as two different people, and I am really beginning to dislike one of those people I have become.>>> Seeing those things is a good first step. Think about it.. Imagine having a lifelong relationship that started out like this. Lies, deception, pain, cheating, sleeping wiht Ws best friend. Ugh. Not exactly a fairy tale when you put it that way. You just have to bite the bullet and end it. Don't be wishy washy about it either , no going back and forth (it only heightens the drama which is a big part of the appeal of EMRs). You need to focus on your marriage, go to counseling etc. Your little girl alone is worth the effort, you owe her that much. Then, if after you have made every effort, it still doesn't work, you will know you did everything possible to make it work. But be prepared to walk away alon eif that happens. No back ups. You need to tell the OW it os over. No more talking, nothing. Turn your focus to your marriage. My H and I have a far beter marriage than we ever did before his affair. You just have to put your mind to it. Good luck, keep us posted.

#904172 03/05/01 04:12 PM
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As a BS, my heart aches for your wife . . . I must confess I do NOT feel any sympathy towards your OW. It does NOT sound cold that you cannot worry about her or her children at the expense of your own child.<P>You have a responsibility to your wife and your daughter. Live up to it. Be the man you ought to have been--someone who is honest, loyal, loving, caring, unselfish, giving, protective, brave.<P>Write that no contact letter TODAY (be darn sure you read through SAA so that you know precisely HOW to properly write it). And do not deviate from the path of restoring your marriage. You are so very fortunate your wife is willing to meet you half way. Yes, the pregnancy issue was wrong and a hurtful, deceitful way to go about having a baby. But that does NOT warrant your actions nor your OW's actions. And, your OW, BTW, is as much to blame in this mess as you are.<P>No matter what this does to OW, it is not your concern nor your responsibility. She is responsible for her own actions and she made the concious decision to put herself in a situation that could only lead to heartache, pain and utter devastation. Both of you chose to bring this upon yourselves. What is so tragic and sad, is that your wife and child had NO choice in being hurt; you and the OW chose that for them.<P>If I sound angry or hostile, that is not my intent. My WS has commented that facing the TRUTH about oneself and one's actions is a difficult pill to swallow. It's ugly and it hurts. But, there it is and lying to yourself about it doesn't improve the situation. Accepting responsibility for it DOES. My WS didn't like the person he'd become during his very brief A. He made a decision when he revealed the A to me and chose to stay and work on our marriage that from that day forward, he was going to be the man/husband/father he wanted to be and nothing would sway him.<P>Although he is still very much ashamed of himself and his actions, he is beginning to like the man he is now becoming and he feels that he truly is a better person deep inside for choosing the path of rebuilding his marriage and his commitment to his children, who are happily unaware of what has happened. <P>And, I want to believe that I am a better person deep inside, for forgiving the most painful thing that has ever happened to me (yes, it was more painful than losing my 2nd baby), and for working hard to right what was wrong in our marriage, for striving to be the wife and woman that I want to be, and for loving him with all my heart, despite how devastating this has been. Both my husband and I have to accept that I will be 'scarred' by this for the rest of my life, but we are working together to heal. We will accomplish this together, but there's still a lot of work to be done. We take it one day at a time and each day gets a tiny bit better.<P>Please, make the decision today to be the man you want to be. Write the letter and do not contact the OW ever again. Then give your heart to your wife and ask her to take care of it; and ask her to entrust you with hers when she's ready to . . . it could be some time before that happens. Be patient, persevere in giving her every reason to put her faith in you, and don't ever let her down.

#904173 03/05/01 04:21 PM
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I am a BS, so you might not like what I'm going to say, and it basically re-iterates what fairydust has said.<P>Your OW sounds like a piece of work. Please forgive me but these days any mention of an OW makes me p***** off beyond belief. However, she HELPS your wife come up with a plan to become pg in a covert way?!?!?! Did your lovely OW know your feelings about a pregnancy before your W got pg? Please! If she did, your OW is very sneaky indeed.<P>I agree with fairydust's views about the OW: she's trying to make sure that you see her in a positive light while making your W look like the bad guy. She's also playing the "I'm so fragile/please help me/my marriage sucks" routine so that you will come to her rescue. Fragile my butt. She knew what she was getting into getting involved with a MM who is good friends with the W no less. She's playing you, big time.<P>I will probably get flamed, but I don't care. Open your eyes to your W and realize how lucky you are that she's willing to give you another chance. As you will read, second chances are hard to come by for some folks here. Try to rmemeber HOW MUCH you have hurt and devestated your wife with this knowledge, especially since the other party was a friend-it makes the betrayal that much worse<P>[This message has been edited by hurts2much (edited March 05, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by hurts2much (edited March 05, 2001).]

#904174 03/05/01 05:28 PM
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Outhere,<P>I am not in your shoes nor your W's shoes. But it is clear what you should do. Your OW needs to be out of the picture. It will be painful, but necessary.<P>However, I would like to say something that will be at odds with many who have posted. I think that you and your W need to sit down and really hash out something about your marriage and honesty.<P>It is my opinion that an affair is trivial compared to bringing an unexpected or unwanted child into this world. Your W and your OW played fast and loose with the life of a child. They are most fortunate that you have come to love that child, but in my book <B> What your W did is far more serious than an affair. She got pregnant by you without your knowledge or consent knowing that you were not ready or perhaps never would be ready to be a father. </B><P>I believe that the two of you should go to counseling and lots of it. This issue of the your D, how you felt before, how she decided to have a child anyway, and your feelings about children is more important that any other aspect of your marriage, in my opinion. It is apparently the cause of your affair (which was/is simply and completely wrong), it could have been the source of a child scorned by one of her parents, and the insensitivity, heartlessness of this act really really is disturbing.<P>As you can guess, I, as a man, feel that fathers have a strong obligation to rear, nuture, and love their children. By the same token, the most important aspect of a marriage is the decision to have and raise children. It is clear that your W's feelings about the obligations of marriages, and your feelings about the vows of the marriage need to be carefully reviewed.<P>You now have a child, lose the OW and do your best to be a good father to her.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

#904175 03/05/01 06:55 PM
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Outthere,<BR> <BR>Wow there are a lot of issues in your case. Posting your situation to this forum took courage. Good. Recognition of your true situation is important to recovery. <P>A child is a gift from God. Never should one's life be toyed with. Our emotions as adults should not be toyed with either. Yet some chose to play with the lives of their families (children included) when having A's. <P>Your W should not have misled you and you probably should not have been so set against children. Having children changes the beast in most of us and brings out the tender compassion we all deparately need in our lives. It helps balance us and makes us see what is really important. <P>On the other hand, A's are never justified answer to any problem. You can probably tell that I am the BS. The pain felt on the BS end is tremendous. Coupled that with dealing with a young child is asking for diaster. Please get with your W and seek out good counseling ASAP. If the OW is really your friend, she will let your A die quickly and permanently. If the OW is not, then you know she is not a true friend and why continue associating with her?<P>Don't get me wrong. OP's have good and bad sides to their personalities like the rest of us. However, this A. will not allow you to have your cake and eat it too. <P>I am glad you have strong natural affection for your child. My H is struggling with this point and this is part of the reason why he is having trouble coming back to our family. I plan to share your comments and some of the others with him. <P>I hope you work on recoverying your marriage. Your child is still young and you have many years of enjoyment ahead with her. Who knows if you will want another one someday?<P>I would like to make a final comment about your W. Sometimes, women out of internal frustration take drastic moves when they want to have a child. Work with you wife and see if you can understand why she felt the need to deceive you. Be understanding and patient. You still have a daughter that you both love and enjoy. That is the final result. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.

#904176 03/05/01 07:00 PM
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I have to agree with just about everything written here... however, I will take the tiniest bit of exception to what Just Learning has said.<P>There is nothing the least bit trivial about an affair compared to anything except, perhaps, death. I'll bet you there are more fathers out there then you know who became so without being ready. It's been my experience that there are a very large number of men who would NEVER admit to being ready for fatherhood. Many of those have found the joys of fatherhood only after seeing their baby for the first time. I am NOT in any way condoning deceit in a relationship. But to compare a married woman becoming pregnant on purpose to the lies and deceit of an affair and coming up the the idea that the pregnancy is worse than the affair is just plain WRONG.<P>Now I will probably hear some guff for my attitude about men, but that's ok. Have at me.<P>Outhere: do what they have all told you here. You know that there is nothing in the least bit unique about your situation. Your wife, whom you loved and apparently still love, and who has borne you a daughter that you now love also, WANTS to make the marriage work... YOU want to make the marriage work. Get that 'no contact' letter written and out there asap. Remember that, while it was difficult to "pry" the truth out of OW, she was in on the secret, she helped your wife deceive you ... gee, how much "help" was that? I would even go out on the same limb with fairydust and wonder if she didn't have some interest in you long ago that prompted her to be so "helpful" ... <P>You can do this. Do this for your daughter, for your wife, and finally, do this for yourself. Affairs rarely become successful long-term relationships, and almost all men who leave their wives for another woman regret it bitterly. Whereas, with the right help and guidance, a marriage hurt by an affair can become a completely new marriage that is healthier and happier than ever. Sad to say that many of us never learned and never realized we HAD to know how to make our marriages this way without the disruption and pain of the affair.<P>Be like the Nike commercial says: Just Do It.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

#904177 03/05/01 07:21 PM
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Terri,<P>OK! I have to respond. You apparently have not seen as many poor parents as I have. I mean poor as in lousy parents not lack of money. Further, I find it interesting that your attitude, is "don't worry they'll get over it." <P>I believe for the most part many men aren't prepared to take on the responsibility of being a father, but aren't against it either. So they do become good fathers, without admitting that they wanted children. However, for those that state they don't want to be a father, then a W going ahead and deciding to have a child anyway is in excusable.<P>When comparing a marriage coming apart against the life of a child and whether that child is even wanted by a parent from square one, I am sorry my morals say the child wins out every time. I am not condoning or just shuffling off the affair, but simply deciding to have a child without consulting the spouse is a level of selfishness that is rarely if ever attained in an affair. And affairs raise selfishness to amazing levels.<P>My feeling is the same as yours up to this point. If you really don't love someone and you don't want to work on the marriage, then a divorce is superior to an affair. If one of you don't want children and the other desparately does, then annul the marriage and find a spouse that wants children.<P>Outhere's situation is very complex, but if you don't think having a child is important enough to consult and agree on, then what the heck kind of marriage do you have? Women may have the right to choose, but children ought to have the right to have two parents that want them. Hey, I know men have no rights, we just get to pay no matter how things work out. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>So Terri, I respectively disagree. Outhere's W showed a level of selfishness, that calls into question the viability of the marriage whether the affair is present or not. Now that it is, things are really a mess. He needs to sort himself out and do the hard work to rebuild the marriage, but his W needs to really examine how much she valued him, and his position in the marriage, since she was so willing to act unilaterly on such a serious thing, a childs very existence.<P>Actually, Terri I am sure many more will weigh in on your side than mine, but I do feel strongly about this as you can tell.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

#904178 03/05/01 07:36 PM
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Outhere, I'm going to take advantage of this opportunity to point out something that most people here will not agree with.<P>HONESTY is vitally important in a relationship. When your W decided to become pregnant "on the sly", when she knew of your ambivalence or aversion to having children, she sent you a message: "You are not important. Only what I want is important."<P>This does NOT excuse your affair, but it does tell us that your W is not blameless in the problems within your marriage. <P>So OK. She deceived you and you deceived her. Now you're even. Now you can start building some real intimacy.<P>We've had other posters here, female, who desperately wanted children and their husbands were less than enthusiastic. I will say this to any woman who thinks "Oh, when he sees the baby he'll change his mind." <P>HE WILL NOT.<P>Oh, perhaps he will over time; but what kind of damage will you cause to your marriage by being deceitful? The fact that marriage is supposed to be about reproduction doesn't matter. If both parties aren't on board, it can't work. The deceit of a quasi-accidental pregnancy is no less hurtful to a reluctant spouse than the deceit of an affair. Both deceptions say, YOU DO NOT MATTER.<P>I have never seen a marriage where children were produced with one reluctant parent that worked out.<P>Outhere, the OW's well-being is not your responsibility. She is a grown woman and capable of making her own decisions. Do not let her use her "fragile emotional condition" to manipulate her. She knew perfectly well you were married. It is not cold for you to cut her loose, it is the honorable thing to do. Let her work it out with her therapist.<P>I commend you for your recognition of your mistake and renewed commitment to your marriage. I would recommend that BOTH of you, you and your wife, read some of the Harley books. You both have a lot to learn about marriage, and this is an opportunity for you to do it together.

#904179 03/05/01 08:35 PM
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I think Terri has a point. Although getting pregnant on purpose is a horrible idea and obviously deceitful, almost nothing compares with having an affair. Not even death, unless it is murder.<P>There is no way to know if the father is going to want the child after it arrives, even if he very much wanted his wife to become pregnant. Less than a year before my H left, he said that he would have liked to have had more children if we had been able to afford it. Now he sees very little of the ones he has, and for the most part acts uninterested in their lives. <P>The first thing that occurred to me when I read that the OW had helped the wife plan this pregancy was that the OW did so on purpose - she may have been well aware that the pregnancy would antagonize the H, and make him more susceptible to an affair with her. <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited March 05, 2001).]

#904180 03/05/01 11:53 PM
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I would say forget about the feelings of the OW, your feelings, and the feelings of your W. Think for just a moment about the example you are setting for your D.<P>You may not believe it, but your child learns by watching YOU. Carrying on this affair, with the lies and everything associated with it, impacts your child DIRECTLY. You need to weigh your options here...the needs of your OW (who is an ADULT, and is responsible for her own actions) versus the needs of your D, who is an innocent victim of circumstance. Even if you cannot save your marriage, you owe it to that little girl to try with all your might! A stable home is the most important thing you can offer her at this point; she cares nothing for OW or OW's children...she just wants her dad and mom to be happy.<P>My advice is: drop EVERYTHING that would interfere with your daughter's happiness. That includes the OW! You need to become Super-Dad! Would Super-Dad have an affair? No. Would Super-Dad lie? No! Would Super-Dad let some other woman interfere with his relationship with his daughter in any way? Of course not! You need to set an example for this child...be a super-hero...be a boy scout...be the one person that she can look to for honesty and honorable conduct. Be a stand up guy, and kick the OW to the curb...NOW!

#904181 03/06/01 08:22 AM
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Out Here-<BR>Hi- welcome to MBs, sorry you’re here. I am a female WS. I have been married for more than 10 years and have 2 children. My situation is very different from yours, but I wanted to respond. <P>As a WS, I can understand how terribly hard it is to give up the OP. All of your behaviors and feelings may be incredibly predictable and common for us who have had affairs. We thought we were unique and had these special relationships. Now, you find out it happens to a lot of people. The problem is, your feelings for OW are real to you. It may help to think of it as an addiction. You really may at times ache with your whole heart to be with her, help her, etc. But your relationship with her was not real, and was wrong. “No contact” helps the process of withdrawal from your feelings for her. It will not be easy to choose no contact on your own and stick with it. Like a drug dependency, you need to take steps to make sure you can not and will not contact her, because you can not trust your own judgement on this right now. You have been weak, you will feel weak and you need to try to find the strength to do this. Intellectually, you are seeing that the A is wrong. Emotionally, you are struggling. People here have said love is a decision. You have to believe that, and decide to love your wife, your D, and work on your marriage for both of them. This is the right thing to do, you know it in your heart. And the pain and conflict you feel in your heart because of your feelings for OW are normal. You will have to work through giving up the relationship with OW, and grieving for it. It hurts, it won’t be easy. But for those of us who have done it, I can tell you, it gets better. Your pain will become manageable, you will get your self-respect back. Think about how you will want to feel about your life when you are 50-60-70. Don’t you want to be able to say, “Yes, I made a mistake, but then I did the right thing.”<P>These boards can be very helpful. You are brave to post here, and even lurk here. I have found it very painful at times reading here, because the boards are mostly BSs, and being fairly ruthless toward feelings of OP and WSs in general is not uncommon. I recommend you read, ask questions, and post. But skip the threads where BS go off to compare notes on how terrible their WSs are. They will not help you. Have you read SAA? Can you get some counseling for yourself?<P>What you need to do is get some support. You need to understand that what you did was terribly wrong, and you need to confront this. No matter what your wife has done wrong, it doesn’t justify your actions. You can recover from making a terrible mistake if you take responsibility for your actions and become the better person, husband and father that you want to be. <BR>

#904182 03/06/01 08:46 AM
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My heart goes out to your daughter. She is the true innocent in this mess.<P>Concieved in deceit and born into a dysfuntional relationship.<P>If you can agree her interests supersede your own, your OW and even your wife's, maybe it would be easier to focus on what you need to do.<P>She needs a compentent loving parent with some fortitude and integrity. Right now, that looks like you.<P>If for no other reason, protect her from having OW as her eventual step mom. Certainly your wife is responsible for her own deplorable behavior, but this OW sounds like she master minded this before, during and after. Helpless my ***.<P>Get into some serious counseling and be sure to take along your wife.<P>For your daughter's sake, I truly hope all of you can get it together and do the right thing for that precious child.

#904183 03/06/01 10:40 AM
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JL, In my opinion, it is pretty nonproductive to compare deceits, or pain. Deceitfully conceiving a child to deciding to have an affair with a W's best friend. Apples and oranges, not better or worse, just both crappy decisions.<P>Outhere, the OW has made bad choices that she will have to deal with, she is not your responsibility. If you want your marriage, your family no contact is the only way. Difficult, God yes. I've been both a WS and BS and know exactly what both withdrawal and being betrayed are like. Again, it is generally pointless to compare pain, but the only control the BS has over whether the WS's affair ends is to divorce or stand by (Plan A)...and standing by is more difficult than a non-BS will ever know.<P>You had the decision making ability to get into this mess, you have the decsions making ability to get out of it.<P>OW who act like victims, when they are perpetrators are not of good character. Ever.

#904184 03/06/01 10:43 AM
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Outhere, apologies for arguing on your thread - as you can see, your situation is very complex and has brought out in the forum some very sensitive and volatile issues... that is not a bad thing, and maybe you will learn something new from this discussion! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>JL, I take exception to you trivializing my entire post into one very false and foolish sentiment: 'Further, I find it interesting that your attitude, is "don't worry they'll get over it."' I would appreciate it if you would point out exactly where I say this. I don't think you can, because I never did say this, and nothing I wrote even intimates such a sentiment.<P>Believe me, I've seen many poor parents - one of my sisters could use some serious lessons in parenting, plus, I live in a very high 'welfare' area - a system that has rewarded mothers for having unwanted children. However, MOST of the bad parents I've seen actually had their children because they both wanted to do so - after all, it is what you do after you get married, right?<P>My own parents started their marriage in a similar fashion - my mother got pregnant BEFORE they were married - although not on purpose - and my father had certainly not at that point said "hey, let's have kids." And you know what? My father looked at it as an opportunity to change his life... stopped drinking, switched from cigarette smoking to pipe smoking (to save money) and then they went on to have 3 more children. All of whom are very very very much loved and none of whom would have existed if it weren't for my mother accidentally getting pregnant.<P>However, I think you missed my main point. My main point is this: NEVER trivialize an affair by comparing it with anything.<P>That said, I will go on and make another point, one which Orchid brought up. There is a lot of talk about men and their "biological need" for sex. And we women are supposed to "recognize" it as a need, and we are supposed to honor it and realize it is our man's way of expressing his love. What no one ever talks about is a woman's "biological need" to have and nurture children. It is just as much of a biological need as a man's need for sex... and it is driven by body chemistry, just as is a man's sex drive is driven. It troubles me that as married people, we are expected to accommodate the biological needs of one spouse and overlook those of the other. Men use subterfuge, deceit and lies to get sex regularly and we are supposed to simply say "well, it's his biological need."<P>Am I angry? Yes I am. I married a man who wanted children - we talked about it before and during the early years of our marriage. But we waited because he 'wasn't ready yet'. Then he decided, without discussing it with ME that he DIDN'T want children, and more than that, that he didn't even want to be MARRIED anymore! So where am I??? I am a 41 y/o woman who wanted to have at least one child with the man she loves and I will have NO children with anyone because of this man. I'm not in the financial position to have one by myself, and I'm not emotionally (nor legally) in a position to find a new relationship and have children. And it makes me angry that I gave my child-bearing years away with NOTHING in return for them.<P>So, JL, you believe what you want to believe about Outhere's situation ... but please don't put words in my mouth nor attribute sentiments to my heart that were never uttered and never felt.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

#904185 03/07/01 12:07 AM
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Outthere you have been given A LOT of advice, and A LOT of it slamming the OW! I know that it is not something that you want to read because right now it appears that she can do no wrong (fog) and i believe it will do the opposite effect and make you want to stick up for her. I'm sure you know that having in affair with your "BEST FRIENDS HUSBAND" has to be up there with the WRONG LIST. And you know that having an affair PERIOD especially with wives best friend is wrong. Right now a lot is going through your head, you want to do the right thing but something keeps holding you back. A lot of mistakes have been made here between everyone involved, now the first step is to LEARN where to start to correct them, and you are on the right track by realizing that this can't go on because it is not mentally healthy for anyone involved in this type of scenerio. Another step would be counseling for both you and your wife. Good luck to you and please continue to come here.<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited March 06, 2001).]

#904186 03/07/01 12:10 AM
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Terri is absolutely right. Just as sex drives vary among people, so do motherhood drives, but for many women, the biological drive to have children is extremely strong. Look at all the women who spend years in infertility treatments, who stay bedridden throughout difficult pregnancies, who risk their lives to have a child. The desire to have a child can not in any way be compared to the selfish desire to have a mink coat or a boat, for example. <P>Maybe the wife did not realize how much she would want children when she first married. Maybe the H didn't make it as obvious as he thought he did that he would never want children. I can not imagine how hard it would be to have to make a decision between giving up the man you loved and swore to stay married to for life, and having to give up having children, especially if you thought he would turn out to be a good father.

#904187 03/06/01 02:58 PM
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Hello outhere,<P>I commend you on your honesty on this thread. Putting your life "out there" isn't easy, is it?<P>I believe that what your wife did is very, very wrong. I also believe that what you did was/and continues to be very, very wrong.<P>Can they be compared? Absolutely NOT!! <P>The one thing that jumped out at me is how your OW had to have the info "pryed" out of her. No, it may have seemed that way, but I doubt it is true. I very much agree with Nellie when she wonders if this OW purposely put your wife/you into that situation knowing the havoc it would cause. I wonder also...<P>Honesty is missing in your marriage and you BOTH need help in working to find it and feel safe using it.<P>Most of all, it is good that you love your daughter. At this point it doesn't matter how she came into the world. She is here, and she deserves to be cherished.<P> <P>------------------<BR>I just want to sit in the garden in peace~~<P>*Statue*

#904188 03/06/01 03:38 PM
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Outhere,<P>You have come forward-WHAT A BIG STEP!!! Now take a deep breath and now another deep breath....now lets look at the situation....<P>As a BS I would have to side with your wife on this. Deep Breathe!! <P>Also, my H left me for the damsel in distress....when you so this you are only setting up everyone (including yourself) up for failure. Please read the book Private Lies-it describes the different types of affairs. Who is the damsel in distress now? I would say your wife is and who helped her get this way?? Deep Breathe Just a different way of looking at things.<P>More good books: Surviving an Affair and Torn Assunder. Listen to Susie-she's been in your shoes. Call Dr. Harley for a counseling session. <P>Spend time with your daughter-she may be young but she can still feel the tormoil. Love her-no matter how she came into this world-she's your daughter.<P>Look into forgiving-yes-forgiving your wife. She will also enjoy the books and counseling sessions. <P>OW had a bad marriage but she picked her spouse you and your wife did not...<P>Hang in there!!!! Most important breathe!!

#904189 03/07/01 01:21 AM
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Hello all,<P>I just wanted to take a minute and post to say that I've been reading everything here very carefully. I also wanted to thank everyone who has responded to my message for their frank and candid comments and advice. I know that it must be tough for alot of the BS's to hold thier tongue and not lay into me, a betrayer. It's been very encouraging for me to read. Thank you.<P>Well, the OW has been out of town for a couple of days, and I feel that I have been thinking really clearly lately. That started with my first post here, and reading the subsequent replies. I really can't thank all of you enough just for listening, and even understanding. Just hearing someone else say some things that I may have been thinking in this thread has been incredibly helpful. <P>I'd like to post an update, and maybe address some comments brought up in this discussion, but it's really late here, and I've got to get some rest. I hope all of this comes out coherently [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] I hope I can continue to discuss this with all of you.<P>------------------<BR>OutHere

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