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Joined: Jan 2001
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I have discovered an enormous amount of evidence that my wife has been having an affair but she refuses to admit it. How do I get her to admit it so we can try and save our marriage? <P>It started back around November when I began to notice she came home from work a few hours late almost every night. She said she was going out with her girlfriends and/or visiting them but I began to get suspicious. Then, around the end of December I happened to glance at her cell phone bill which had a list of her calls from 11/22-12/19 and I noticed a number that was ALL over it. There were dozens of calls to this number, some late at night. I knew the number of her friends and this number was not one of them. I used the net to reverse look-up the number but got no matches. It was an unlisted number. I called it and got an answering machine from someone named Ricky. I spent a few days on the net trying to find out how to see who owns an unlisted number but didnt have much luck. Finally on Jan 4th I paid $25 to an online detective agency that cracks unlisted phone numbers. By the time I got home from work that day, the name and address from the agency was in my email. I was very impressed.<P>Anyway, I immediatly called her at work and demanded to know who Ricky was. At first there was complete silence and I could feel she was shocked and surprised. Her first words were "where did you get that name?". I just repeated my demands to know who he was and she said he was just a friend and then I called her a liar and started screaming at her. She didn't really fight back, I guess she was scared and stuff. <P>I started keeping a notebook of her travels, what time she left home and came back, when she got off work, and I started recording the mileage on her car. I rode by this guys house and found out what kind of car he had and where he lived. But I have never caught them together first hand so even though the evidence was piling up, I didn't want to believe it was really happening. A few times she said she was going out after work with her friends but the next day she would have about 30 miles added to her car (I was resetting the trip meter right before she got off work). Her friends live less than 2 miles away and the places where we go out are also less than 2 miles away. She would get off work about 9:15pm and come home anywhere from 11pm to 2am. I did not question this since we have been married for 12 years and she has always gone out with girlfriends and I never suspected anything nor do I believe anything ever happened until now. Mainly because of how cold she was becoming towards me at home, even before I found out about Ricky and her cell phone bill.<P>A few days later, around Jan 10th I looked through one of her notebooks and she had 2 pages for birthdays, one for family and one for friends. I recognized most of the names and on the friends page was "Ricky Jan 16". Well on Jan 16th she did not come home after work. She called home that night and I asked her where she was and she said "a girlfriend's house" and laughed. I heard a lot of voices in the background so I really didn't know what to think. The next morning I searched the trunk of her car and found a birthday bag with a red "melt my heart" candle, and some nautica sleepwear pants. The receipt was there and I recorded all this in my notebook. She had bought the stuff the day before on Jan 16th at 4:10pm. But this was the 17th so I was a little confused as to why she still had it. I called her later that day and confronted her on this and this really pissed her off and she told me that we were though and she wanted a divorce. I was the one who had the right to be mad. <P>But even after all this things slowly start to get back to normal around the house and she still maintains he is just a friend. She grabs her cell phone bills and hides them as soon as she sees them. I ask to see them and she gets mad that I am invading her privacy. But what she doesn't know is that AT&T wireless has something where you can review all your past bills and stuff online and I have copies of all her bills and calls since October. The calls to him have decreased since Feburary but he was out of town at least one week in Feb. We had a fairly positive Valentine's Day in which I went the extra mile to make her happy and I thought things were improving. We kind of subconsciously agree not to talk about this in order to keep peace in the house. We have 3 kids, 2 of which were hers when we got married and one of ours together. <P>Throughout all this I have no first hand evidence that anything was really going on. When she didn't come home at night, I would drive around to try and find her car. Most of the times Ricky's car would be at home but I couldn't find them. Sometimes his car was gone and I drove around town checking all the hotels and bars but never had any luck. <P>This past weekend, I was reviewing her old credit card bills online. Her credit card statement is also something she keeps secret. BINGO, I found a charge for a hotel about 14 miles north of here, which is right along the same highway that Ricky lives on. I confronted her with this on Saturday (3 March) and she got upset and I think I saw tears starting up in her eyes. The date on the statement was Jan 9. There was one night that she left after a really big fight and did not come back until the next morning. I hadn't started taking notes at that time so I don't remember the exact date. When she came home that morning she said she had slept in the car. Now she is saying that this is the night she didn't come home and she went to the hotel. Well yesterday I called the hotel from work and asked if they could fax me a copy of the receipts for my travel records for this night. They did, and I saw her signature and at the bottom of the receipt was the most damning evidence yet: number of guests - 2. Well, I made some copies at work, came home during lunch and showed this to her and she STILL denies! She said this was a mistake and that the hotel lied and that she was there by herself! I really thought this would get her to admit it so we can move forward and try to save our marriage but she still refuses! She even tries to talk nice to me about other things like normal and nothing is happening! I haven't been able to sleep with her the past 3 days so I've been sleeping on the couch. Anyway today I took the receipt down to the hotel and asked the lady at the front desk if it were possible the number of guests was wrong. She said it's possible but usually not and they were charged a rate for 2 people in the room and not 1 person as it was $10 cheaper for one person. I even had the same clerk that checked them in cause of her initals on the bill. She said she asks how many people and usually it is not wrong. Also, it is 14 miles from our house to this hotel so that makes 28 miles round trip which explains the large number of miles she put on her car when I was tracking her mileage. I came home tonight armed with this new evidence but instead of confronting her with it, I just found this web site. I read some of Dr Harvey's advice and realize that conflict and confrontation is not going to help. I see small subtle signs that she doesn't want to get a divorce yet (or maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see). I hate sleeping on the couch but when I came home from work today she had a new blanket and pillow on the couch where I had just been sleeping on it with nothing but a couch pillow. <P>How can I get her to admit this? It seems like even if I had a picture of them together she would claim that I made it up on the computer (I am a network manager and very computer knowledgable while she is completely the opposite and knows nothing about computers). We have been married for 12 years and together for 15. I was only 21 when we got married but never cheated on her. I will forgive her if she asks me but she won't even admit it! I even told her I would forgive her if she asks but she says there is nothing to forgive? Should I let it go and just try and get things better? <P>Sorry for the long story but thanks for reading and I welcome any and all advice....<P>Mike E.

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Welcome <B>Mike E.</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Yes... keep in checking...<BR>...keep on logging...<P>But...do also start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>I know this sounds like a contradiction of efforts...<BR>...it really isn't.<P>Do be honest with your W... about what you feel... about her doing these things.<BR>But don't be mean to her... it's a love buster!<P>Stay here and ask away...<BR>...you are not alone!<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

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You came to the right place. There are many of us here trying to save our marriages while our spouses are having an affair. You are not alone. And what you read from Dr. Harley is very true. Please go and check in the Just Found Out forum for a post from NSR titled something like General Welcome for New Builders....<P>This contains links to all the important information that you should read regarding saving your marriage. Affairs can happen to anyone, and once an emotional connection starts, it just happens and the people involved become like aliens. You can't reason with them. That is why trying to get them to admit anything does not help. They won't do it until they are ready. I am particularly aware of this because my wife has not admitted her affair, and is adamant that nothing happened. She moved out in November, after going out almost every night since around May. In June she said she wanted to separate bla bla bla. It turned out she had started making long calls to this other man (OM) in May.<P>You will be amazed at how adamant they will deny regardless of what evidence you have. The advice you will get here is to forget about that aspect of it, and focus on Plan A, not LBing, and figuring out what ENs you weren't meeting that helped result in an affair. ie. what things were wrong with the marriage? It isn't an overnight process, but by you following Plan A, you have a good shot at saving your marriage. She is still there with you, and that is half the battle. Most affairs die a natural death...they cannot be forced. You may have to endure a period of time where you know what is happening, but if you want to save the marriage, you've got to get down to business and be the best person you can be, meet more of her ENs, no love busters (LB), and give it time. Show her that the best place is at home with you and the kids.<P>In an affair, the feelings are exciting and also not reality. It is secretive, fun, romantic, etc. Eventually the bubble bursts and they see reality. That is when you have to be there.<P>I'd recommend that you set up a counselling session with Steve Harley. He can really put this all into perspective and help you develop a plan to get on the right track. I waited a few months before doing so, and wish I had talked to him earlier.<P>In any event, keep posting, reading, and working on yourself. Check the intro and links I mentioned above. That is where to start. Good luck.

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Thanks Rick. I believe my wife's affair started in mid October. Her first call to him was on Oct 15th according to cell phone records and during November they really picked up. And I only found out about this for certain on Jan 4th. I guess that is D-day? It has seemed like an eternity but it seems like you have been suffering much longer. <P>Steve Harley is Dr Harley? How can I set up an appointment with him? I just ordered one of his books, how to survive an affair. I read a little bit about plan A but I don't think I can start that cause she hasn't admitted it yet. <P>Mike E.

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Mike,<P>Plan A is something you do regardless of whether she admits it. Mine still hasn't admitted anything. I've confronted on it several times, and I have enough evidence, but I have never revealed exactly how I know. We've had a few discussions on here about that, because some say tell her exactly how you know (snoop software), others say Plan A and don't get caught up in trying to get an admission. You eventually realize that you cannot force them to say anything, and most deny an affair despite overwhelming evidence. Their minds really go haywire.<P>I believe Dr. Harley refers to Steve's father, Dr. Willard Harley. I think he wrote the books. As I understand, Steve and Jennifer (son and daughter of Willard) followed in his footsteps. They really have a philosophy for saving marriages, and for making marriages work.<P>My wife announced she was leaving June 1, but stayed till Nov. 1. I knew for sure that this was all essentially an affair in August. Suspected in June/July, but didn't think it was possible. So it has been going for too long, but after awhile, it gets somewhat more tolerable. Not that it is easy.<P>The fact that you found this place and your wife is still there is good for you. You can start working on this right now. The book will help you alot. To set up an appointment, go to the main page here, and look for the counselling link. That will get you to the phone number. I was reluctant to try phone counselling at first, and procrastinated, but Steve's ability to explain everything involving affairs and how to have the best shot at saving your marriage is excellent, so I'd recommend it.<P>Finally, you may find that Plan A seems mysterious, and wonder what it really is. In a nutshell, it is about making yourself the best you can be, and eventually your wife will notice changes in you and you become more attractive to her. It takes time, but the goal is that once the affair excitement begins to wear off, and your wife starts to get back to reality, she sees you in the best light. It is also about you doing things that are good for you, because that benefits you, and again, it works full circle to make you look better. Think of things that you used to have together that might be lacking now. For me, it was the "fun" aspect of life. She began to see me as no fun. Of course having two little children to raise takes away some of that, but nevertheless, I know that my wife saw this OM (other man) as being fun, funny, passionate, romantic, spontaneous, and a bunch of other things. Stuff that we used to have but didn't in the past few years. Lately she told me that I seem really happy. Well, I'm not really inside, but I'm making the best of it all, and she is noticing. That is what you want. Typically, the fear of you moving on can become scary to them, but the sight of you being a happy person and appealing is important.<P>Don't get hung up with trying to prove things to her. I know that is really hard, and I've had a difficult time with it, because every so often I get this overwhelming desire to confront again. But take my advice and focus more on you. You can tell her you know and are hurt, and that you are committed to your marriage, that you recoginize and want to work on problems, and that you love her.<P>I see that NSR snuck in ahead of me and pointed you to the important links. He is always on the scene to welcome new people, so do check out everything he mentions.<BR>

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Packet,<P><BR>Tough shoes to wear. I've been there, hell… might still be…too soon to tell. You can Plan A prior to disclosure. Let's her know it's safe to tell you the truth. Be very aware of controlling your anger that will undoubtedly be building the longer she denies the affair. You may not feel it right now but it's tucked away somewhere. If she sees you explode in rage it will just set back disclosure even further or send her running. A chat with Steve H. is the way to go. <P>Mike<BR>

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Packet-Let me tell you my story regarding "not admitting". .<P>We'd been having problems (I don't believe due to the A, I believe our problems lead to the A-that does not mean that I think it should be excused-just that I can understand some of the causes) for a year or two. .neither of us knew how to fix it. So anyhow, ends up to this:<P>He stays out all night one night. I'm flipping. .I call the now OW's house (I have a good feeling this is where he stayed). She lies. He comes home-I yell, I demand to know where he was, he won't say. So things are really tense over the next week or so. .he ends up moving out (not to OW's). .I tell him that I still want him to be a part of my life-that I don't want to not have any contact with him (nobody that I talk to agrees w/me). .while he's gone I'm thinking & thinking, I pretty much realize on my own that he WAS at OW's (NOW she's an OW), but I don't say anything to him. I think I'm one of the luckier ones, because a short time later he admits to me that he was there (I'm lucky b/c so far, I believe he's being fairly honest w/me). .but, I was prepared, I said, I know. . I still want you in my life. This was part of my Plan A to him (remember Plan A is changing things about you that YOU think need changed-hopefully that makes you more attractive, but. . ), he was COMPLETELY shocked, that I knew he was with this OW and still wanted to work things out with him. Although he did not at all commit to working things out w/me.<P>What I did right there was open the lines of communication between me & him-lines that needed to be opened anyhow. .I don't always like what I hear, but . . if I'm in this for the long run I may need to hear some stuff that I don't like. . so may he someday, right??? Since then, he talks to me more about OW than he does his BF. . what's that say for me?? Says I'm his BF, which is how it should be, which is how I want it. I made myself a safe place for him to come to talk about what he's going through. <P>Listen to Rick about trying to make her admit. It won't end just because you get her to say it. I know it's hard, but<P>Keep comming here, keep asking, keep talking, keep reading-you won't be sorry!

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Packet;<P>Welcome. I also am a new MB member 9 (3 weeks) and I am so sorry that I didn't find it sooner. <P>My H is the WS and did NOT admit EA until 6 months after DDay. He denied denied denied until I thought I was CRAZY. BUt i knew in my heart that what he was doing was an affair. By him admitting did it change anything for him NO. I basically forced him to admit it and I think I backed him inot a corner and he felt trapped. <P>REad , read read and Plan A. This living thru and A, is painful and feels worse than death but you will survive but it is up to you what you do with your "feelings". Anger begets Anger and defensivenss.<P>Come here to vent and post and learn. Support is here for all.<P>Hopelessmom

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Thanks for the welcome and advice everyone, and thanks for the links NSR. I still need to learn some of these acronyms. I couldn't quite follow all of your stories, hehe. <P>Anyway, last night there was yet another twist. Instead of more conflict and fighting I said I was sorry for some bad things I had said over the weekend and extended an olive branch. She said she was sorry to (but not exactly for what) and said she went to the hotel yesterday before I got home from work to see why they had 2 guests listed on her receipt. She told me she complained to the clerk that this mistake caused her to get in trouble with me but she didn't really get anywhere with it. She said this was the night that she got really mad with me and left for a drive and stopped at this hotel and that she was by herself. The conversation was very civil and she even asked me if I wanted to sleep in the bed with her last night which I eagerly accepted. We held hands for a while and talked about buying another car since my old van has died and we have just finished paying for her car. This was something we had planned on for a few months.<P>So, here I am again back at square one wondering if she really is having an affair or not. I guess you could call it denial. I checked the credit card statement and hotel receipt again. The card was charged on Jan 9th, but the hotel receipt was for Jan 5th-6th. I initially thought that the hotel stay would have been the same date as the day the card was charged. I started taking notes on the 9th so I don't have anything for the 5th but it was a Friday night and I remember that the night she didn't come home was either a Friday or Saturday cause I didnt have to work the next day. For all the years we've been together, she has never not come home except for this one time.<P>To add even more doubt, I checked her cell phone records for Jan 5th and 6th. She called his house at 10:18pm on the 5th for 8 minutes and at 2:40am on the 6th she called his house for 21 minutes. I assume she was calling from the hotel to his house? So is it possible she really was alone? This makes no sense to me. The time I thought she was with him in this hotel she is calling his house. Unless he came over after 10:30pm and left before 2 am. It doesnt seem likely to me. This guy is divorced, according to her, and I kind of believe that because according to postal address records he lives with a male roomate. So he would have no need to get back home to someone. There was another call to his house at 8:55am on the morning of the 6th for 60 minutes, and then I remember her coming home around 11am Saturday morning. I find myself wanting to believe her again but all the evidence still says otherwise. But it is possible that she is telling the truth about this hotel stay. What are the chances they were together for only a few hours when they could have had all night together? When she came home she looked like she hadn't slept at all and looked like she had slept in her clothes. <P>Still wondering....<BR>Mike E.

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The writing is on the wall, my friend.<BR>You are in denial.<BR>At the very least, her relationship and the extraordinary hours she is away from home are inappropriate, to say the least.<BR>I was glad my own W had a friend she saw a lot of, that is, until I found out what they were in doing in my house when I was not around. <BR>Your W is playing you, she knows you don't want to believe it. <BR>Bite the bullet now, before it bites you.<BR>Perpare for the most diffucult experience in your life.<BR>Good luck.

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I am afraid that Steve E is correct. You have caught your wife in so much lying and misinformation and it is very sad.<BR>Clearly your wife is in an affair. Her actions and phone calls and going to hotels indicates this. I agree with Steve E that you should plan on a lot of pain in the future. I suppose you could hire a private investigator for total proof but you already know the true story. A wife who is engaged in an affair would continue to do these things behind your back. You will now have to worry about catching sexually transmitted diseases on top of this. A good friend of mine recently contacted genital herpes from his wife and is now divorcing here but of course it is too late for him.<BR>I had another friend a year ago who also thought his wife was in an affair and he she of course denied it also. He demanded that she take a polygraph test and he contacted an attorney to set it up. He did not have to because she immediately confessed. I wish you luck because it indeed sounds like she is playing you.

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You guys are probably right. She is playing me. It is very strange however that she called the OM apparently from the hotel though. This has really confused me. Does this make sense to anyone? <P>Anyway I pretended to accept her excuse that the hotel made a mistake. I'm going to press forward with Plan A and not do any more LBing. Until now that is all I have done. But I've learned a lot here over the past 2 days. Seems I've been doing everything wrong in trying to confront her with my evidence and get her to admit this. I realize I wasn't meeting all her EMs. But I really can't imagine the pain getting any worse than this. The uncertanity of not knowing whether or not it is actually happening is agonizing. I have no concrete proof. I think my mistake was immediately confronting her on things as I found out about them. I should have laid low and followed her and observed her so that I could have gotten first hand proof. The uncertainity of not knowing for sure has to be the worst pain, I think. <P>It seems most here have had conversations with their spouse and have confirmed first hand that there is definitely an affair going on. The only night she didn't come home at all she called the OM at his house which really gives me hope that she could have been alone. I actually felt better yesterday when I was 100% positive that it was actually happening but then I cross checked her cell phone records with the hotel receipt which leads me to believe that he was not with her that night, and last night she explained that she did go to the hotel but the hotel made a mistake. The uncertainity is agonizing. I just want to know for sure one way or the other. Then I'll be able to deal with it.<p>[This message has been edited by Packet (edited March 07, 2001).]

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Packet,<P> I used to see evidence such as yours and concluded one of the two following types of scenarios were taking place. <P>Scenario #1 <BR>1st call was a "I need to see you call" After the act, someone guilt trips or fears detection and OM leaves. The 2nd call was a "sorry you had to leave" or "had a great time". <P>Scenario #2<BR>1st call was a "I need to see you" type. For some reason it didn’t happen and the 2nd call was a "really I need to see you right now" maybe with an added dose of "I've been thinking bout telling my husband".<P>I would tend to bet my money on #1. OM is likely more fearful of detection due to what you might decide to due to him otherwise she would visit him at his house.<P>Either way it's all bad news. The phone records are enough to let you know that at least she's having an EA. A Motel just down the road from him would indicate more. <P> If you must really know for sure, I would guess that the clerks in these type places (motels) are subject to money and would happily call you upon their next visit for the right price. <P><BR>I think your current plan of action is appropriate for the time being. I would only add the following. Continue logging your info, but I wouldn't discuss it with her at all. She will likely start trying to be a little more undetectable in covering her paper trail since your disclosure of the evidence. Some where on this sight is a very lengthy post with "snooping" in the title you might look into via search.<P>Some other evidence gathering tips to consider.<P>1. Use of phone cards and pay phones might be warranted if you see the OM number suddenly disappear from the phone bill. This is normally accompanied by several short trips to the store where a pay phone is located. Another option is taping your own phone line in the house. Landline phone bills do not normally provide call detail for local calls so it will probably be a safe bet for her to switch to this. Oh ya new pagers seem to go hand in hand with these potentials.<P>2. Does her phone bill track incoming calls too? Ours does (AT&T wireless), they also offer an online usage service via the www which allows you to see you current usage and I assume this info would include some call detail.<P>3. Start tracking cash withdraws and locations w/time. Now that CCs are compromised it's time to start using cash.<P>4. Check out all the other hotel/motels close to his place for address, mileage and phone number. Might come in handy next time. I used to call asking for wife or OM just to confirm, and then hang up when they said they would connect me and before the room actually was rang. <P>5. Regularly check your credit report to see if any new CCs have been requested/issued or bank accounts opened.<P>6. Look for new P.O. box keys and junk mail with a P.O. box address.<P>7. If you know her girlfriends, offers such as let's get together with so & so and her SO for a drink/dinner can generally cause a facial reaction that tells you a tale in it's self.<P><BR>I completely understand the need to know and the peace that comes with the real truth. My wife was the same way for 6 months before I finally did a full court press and she cracked. Even if you reach the point of confession, it won’t necessarily make her stop. Mine didn't. Just seemed to send her into ultra-thick fogsville. Be careful how much you really find out, it can be the makings of tomorrow's nightmares.<P><BR>Your probably going to have quite a few sleepless nights ahead of you so try to get some sleeping pills from your G.P. and let him know what's going on. Establishing this with your G.P. now could help you get further treatment quicker if needed down the road. It can also speed up any treatment your wife might decide she needs in the future.<P>Lastly remember that you might have played a large part in her falling out of love with you but you have done absolutely nothing that warrants being subjected to this type of suffering. <P>Mike<P><BR>

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<BR>Yes I do realize that I screwed up, ignored her, took her for granted and didn't meet her EMs as this website says. I never did it on purpose, I just got lazy. I was also hooked on on-line computer games with friends from work and stuff. She fell out of love with me over about a year or so but I always put off patching things up until "next week". This is why I am eager to forgive her for this and fix things up if she will give me the chance because it is my fault also. <P><BR>I also called the OM on Jan 4th right after I found out his name, address and after I had called my wife at work to ask who this OM was. I told him who I was, asked him if he new my wife, how did he know her, etc in a friendly way and then I just lost it and started yelling about why he liked to fool around with married women. He denied it of course and said she was just a friend he met at Sears (where she works). I told him I would drop by his "office" tomorrow to visit and discuss this (in a somewhat threatingly manner). But I never did and haven't had any contact with him since. <P><BR>As for the other stuff she has AT&T wireless and it does not provide any details excpet "incoming call" for incoming calls. I use the AT&T web site to see who she is calling but it only details outgoing calls for her phone.<P>I also found a really cool device called TravelEyes, a GPS, streetfinder tracking device that you can put in vehicles, turn it on, and it will record a vehicle's movements right down to the specific address. There are some for sale on ebay. I might have to invest in one of these.<P>Mike E<BR>

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Hi, Sorry for your pain. First remember, the kids need you -they too must sense something is wrong and possibly they may feel some fault-my son suspected and told my friend. That hurt as much as the betrayal!!. Remember they come first - do not do anything to harm them, they will need a stable force in this ordeal, now and after she comes clean. I too tried several times to confront my H about his affair. He of course adamently denied it 4 times. It too started in December and I only recently was told the truth when I confronted him for the 5th time. I thought how I would appraoch this issue since the times before obviously did not work. I too had evidence. I thought about what would have the most impact on him - obviously it was not my hurt, pain, or suspicions. It seems through this whole ordeal he forgot the most important thing - his children. Therefore, I did not get angry, yell or confront his betrayal to me (extremely difficult to do -but I must say I am VERY proud of myself for this) but I approached his behavior change (without mention of the word affair) and proceeded to "discuss" the effect that it had on our kids. I started at the beginning and profiled what he said, what he did, or didn't do (didn't celebrate son's birthday, missed his concert-important things and he did not seem to care either)the effect on them and the effect since. I kept notes of all this so it was fresh in my mind. If you think kids can't sense something is wrong, think again!! His guilt, etc was causing him to lash out at them, be critical, evasive, distant, no show of emotion, you get the picture. I kept myself out of the scenario (at first). Anyway, What finally got to him was the kids (he told me this a few days after - it killed him to go through that). He confessed that throught this whole thing he thought he was thinking of them - but realized after that he wasn't. I sat him in a chair, gave him no option but to stay- like the dog he was, and I talked non-stop for 3 hours - no lie- about the effect on them. Before I even said one word I started with our engagement picture, wedding picture, kids birth pictures and then proceeded to show a picture from every significant and sometimes just loving family outing -18 years worth (I think it took about 15 minutes to do this). Each one, I made him look at the picture for a few seconds and stare right into their eyes!! Then I carefully let it drop to his lap. When I was done he was surrounded by the most important people in his life - on the floor to be trampled on - What an impact I have never seen him cry before! I truely feel that they build a wall and until you break through it they do not let down that defense. Find what it is that means the most to her. Do not use it as a pawn - I would NEVER use my children in such a way, just use it for a reminder of what she is giving up! My H could not live with a "picture" in his mind of the damage he would cause them. It got through to him.<BR>Second, One of the worst things about this whole ordeal is the lies, sneaking around and deceit. Please proceed carefully with your plans. You do not want to be guilty of the same mistakes she is guilty of (as if they could come close). You want to take her back and make it work. KEEP honest, keep your logs, and keep track but please try not to be deceptive and vengeful in this pursuit. Do not be like her. It will just give her more reason to run. I was given good advice when I started here. I was told to always proceed with caution, honesty and DO NOT do anything you will regret or that could potentially backfire. Remember you did nothing wrong -she did!! Keep it that way. I too wanted to confront the OW. I still do, but I am despirately trying to calm those urges. I do not want any recourse or give my H any reason or fuel for his fire. Good luck. Keep at it, eventually she will tell you.

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Thanks Husky. I was reacting a different way towards the kids. At my most emotional times when I was most angry at her I was also angry with the kids. At times I felt like telling the kids that Mom has a new boyfriend and doesn't love me anymore and that they would be getting a new Dad soon. The 2 oldest kids are hers from a previous relationship that were 3 and 2 years old when we met. They have only known me as their father their whole life. Thank God I didn't say this but I'm sure they have noticed something is wrong from us yelling and me sleeping on the couch. <P>How did you know your husband was having an affair? Did you have any indisputable evidence? I'm still in denial. When she is around me and we are talking nicely I can make myself believe that it is all my imagination but when I'm at work going over my notes and stuff common sense tells me otherwise. At night when she doesn't come home right away after work I start getting stressed. Last night she was an hour late coming home but had gone to the store so of course that was a relief.

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Talk about denial -I feel the biggest fool!! They played the part sooo well -just friends - right!!!!!They met last april and became friends. I was introduced to her after. They both shared a common recreational activity (hiking) and were volunteer "partners" This volunteer activity was group activity alomost every weekend - but I didn't question it, I even went along sometimes!! During the summer she moved into a new home (42 never been married) Expounded on how lucky I was to have a great guy and told all her friends about her "VERY married" hiking partner. While she had a large family, he helped her move, add things to the new home, etc. I even helped!! Still in denial - He worked near her so between work and school he started visiting. I asked him and he denied it. I believed him. Then in Oct the 3 of us and another person did a weekend outing. All she talked about was him. RED FLAG!!! Then it started. No s**, not coming home after school, not hungry, reluctantly telling me she made him dinner. I'm still in denial - what a fool. I believed him. Behavior change sets in. Won't talk, negative to the kids, distant. Every weekend he went off. "Helping" her do things. They were so good at the Friends thing I wanted to believe. I am also in school doing my PhD so I was absorbed in that - didn't want to believe - I think this was part of the problem. Christmas came and went -was okay but no intimate contact for 3 months. He started a new job last month - no pay check? -found out he opened his own account! No valentines gift, Started coming home 3-4 hours late after work(12:00,1:00) - very busy he said. Slept on the couch so not to disturb me. Aniversary came and went -17 years. No gift. That night I made an extra effort - wasted! He didn't even acknowledge the day. When asked if he fogot he said No. The OW told me they DISCUSSED the anniversary and she agreed no gift - can you believe it!!! I never had hotel recepits, etc since she had her own home about 1 hour from here (near his work) so it was very convienient. The biggest telltale sign was no intimate contact, late nights, distant demeanor, irritable, he started taking sleeping pills. 4 days after our aniversary I confronted him again. He walked out stayed out all night. Said he slept in his car- didn't he was with her. I called and she said it was none of her business if he didn't call me, how she removed herself from that picture. I smelled a rat. That was the night I nailed him with the photos. I did not give him any choice. I guess the fear of everyone knowing is what brought him home that night. He said he wanted a divorce and wasn't coming home and I said I'd track him down if he didn't. He did. And you know the rest. She has contacted him this week - slipped out- he didn't mean to tell me - I could tell by the look on his face. Keep confronting her -she will eventually come clean. It has been only 1 week since d-day and we are trying - it is slow and he is now in denial and won't talk but says it is past. I'm not so sure. I will keep looking for the signs. I'm NOT in denial any more!!


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