Gang.. I really need your insight here.<P>I am in Plan A and have been doing fairly well, but I have to say that this rollar coaster is a hard ride. I am up and down so easily.<P>The deal is, as some know, my wife works away 5 days a week and comes home weekends. I learned of her affair 2 months ago. I have learned she's still in contact with the OM who is in the same city. She says sincerely there isn't anything but friendship.. I wonder. However she calls me all the time to tell me where she is and we talk a lot now.<P>However when I have to go to the city she's in on business she doesn't want me to have hardly anything to do with her there. She says it's her safe place and feels uncomfortable with me there.<P>SO I am wondering should I really push her and push myself into her world there. I think it's like her bubble. I don't see how we can make real progress with this distance and attitude about distance.<P>We are starting counseling soon and hopefully this will help. But I really want your perspectives on this. I try not to get annoyed with her considering Plan A, but the rejections and suspicion is a killer!<P>K

It certainly does not sound too good. She had an affair with an OM in the city where she travels to in her job 5 days out of the week. She is still in contact with him but claims its only friendship. She does not like you visiting at this place because it is her safe place and she feels uncomfortable when you visit? Karl Karl Karl. This is not a marriage. What do you have? A major priciple and this is a must is that all contact with the OM must be cut immediately or there is really very little hope. The fact that she lives away 5 days out of the week and does not want you to visit is a terrible sign. I would really question whether the affair is over. I would contemplate hiring a private investigator and you will find out quickly. The bottom line is that she seems to wish to live a single's life for 5 days <BR>and a married wife for two. I do not believe that most people would ever accept this type of arrangement. Especially after an affair you both need to get close and reestablish connections. Having her call you from a hotel in a city where the OM lives will not cut it. I guess only you know what you are willing to endure. I would assume that when you married her you did not envision this as a type of marriage. I wish you luck Karl. I hope the counseling will help. What good is money if your living in different cities?

Karl,<P>Your wife sounds just like mine did on the topics of friends, safe place when she traveled, not wanting me to be any part of it. In her case, those facts told the real story, lies upon lies. <P>If you really need to know more I think that the only way you'll get your answers is a PI. A few more visits to her city might hinder your plan A, but if you have any planned trip left try to scope out potential PIs. You might also try to gather as much info to tell the PI as possible. <P>Even though it does make a difference to you what is going on when you are apart, it shouldn't. Just look at what she is leaving you with. Very little. Plan A & see how counseling goes. It's a good step if she enthusiastically participates. <P>Here's another litmus test that I used to consider. Remember back to your single dating days. Can you think of any person that you ever slept with and still remained friends once the relationship was over? My experience with that type of thing was there was always one party that was interested in being more than friends. The closest thing I could ever recall was becoming a cordial acquaintance, but never the hanging out and doing things together as friends. I'm sure it does happen once in a while, but since this is playing a speculation game then the real question is "What are the odds"<P>What started the change in our house? I pressed her into counseling one year into A after a good Plan A and failed Plan B. She had no real participation in the sessions. I totally lost interest in any more attempts. She told me I was out of the picture, we're separated (by her decree alone), we'll only be roommates and I needed to find someone else. I decided after about 2 months of that story and no progress after one good year of applying the MB philosophies, I might not have the world as figured out as I once had though. Finally I said fine I'll try it her way and told her she was free to conduct herself as she saw fit. Within two weeks I was dating and within 4 sleeping with what was for lack of a better term my girlfriend. I never told her what I was doing while she was away and she didn’t ask, but she knew what was going on. About the 6th week of me dating she came home a day late from a business trip and announced that she was a day late because she when to the OMs city and broke it off. Of course in person with hugs and kisses (SAA - Caribbean cruise?) This was followed by "I didn’t want to", "its your fault" & "I hate you for it making me give him up" Upon hearing that I said "yea right" this is the 4th or 5th time I've heard this. I asked her to go be happy with him and I had nothing to do with it, even offered to call a moving truck so she could move in with him. (Too bad his wife wouldn’t approve) I quit seeing my girl friend or anybody else about two weeks after for my own self respect and slowly found my way back into the MB philosophies. <P>I'm not condoning my actions what so ever. I felt like sh*t for quite a while, but that was the point that she started to turn around. Although MB is the way to go for me, I still often wonder if it is the best approach for all. I think some people feel they could get on with their "normal" life a little quicker if they were punished in some way (so to speak). If you think about it that’s the sociological model most normally functioning folk are raised with. If I do something really bad and get caught, then I should be punished. In our case my wife implied that she was afraid that all the good Plan A stuff was just a front and I was holding out on the real verdict till later. <P>Hope something here helps in some way. Just remember some how some way, life will get better. <P>Mike<BR>

I don't think a PI is necessary because I feel pretty confident that she is talking and meeting with him occassionally, maybe even doing more, but frankly the level of relationship she has doesn't really matter, it's a relationship. It's a huge problem.<P>So here's the deal, I just read some email from her to him yesterday where she tells him she love him and he responded with he loves her too. <P>So now that I know that she truly is deceiving me etc. How do I handle it. We have had moments of plan A the last 4 weeks that have been great and seems to progress. I don't want to do anything drastic, but I am having doubts of whether I can take this.<P>K

I am sorry to have read your last message in that she is<BR>continuing to deceive you and is in contact with OM. You say you do not wish to do something drastic. I would suggest that it is exactly what you need to do. I think that you should reread Hi Fidelity's post. She loves this guy, she is lying to you and lives apart from you. You need to do something drastic to hopefully get her out of the fog. If you do not then I would assume eventually she will make a move to be with him permanently. There currently seems to be no repercussions to her actions. She is currently lying and God know what else to you. This shows a total lack of respect towards you. I suspect that you are fearful of confronting her because you are scared that she will walk away. If this is the case then she has already walked away from you. You are allowing her to have her cake and eat it too. Why should she change her behavior if she feels comfortable to continue in her lying to you?

I think you are absolutely correct in that she gets to have and eat her cake. <P>I can see that she wants help and that she doesn't agree with her behavior. Her attitude tells me that she is so full of conflicting emotions that it deeply troubles her.<P>So I guess the rub is.. Do I still Plan A to show her how great we can be or is it time to Plan B.<P>Now.. with that said, if I plan B I have various practical questions. Here's some facts, the house and mortgage is in my name only as are the cars.<P>1. Can I legally prohibit her from the house?<BR>2. Can I secure/hide our savings so she doesn't drain it?<BR>3. What is the legal and non-legal issues with seperation/divorce? How does this work?<BR>4. What is the best way to say ENOUGH AND BYE BYE?<P>I don't plan to do Plan B until I have direction on some of these questions. Simply put, she has spent tons of cash living her lifestyle disrespectful of me, I had to put everything in my name because her credit is bad etc.. I want the money and stuff we have and frankly she can move to the city and see reality.<P>THOUGHTS??<P>K<P>

[Karl,<P>If you are seeing any progress then don’t quit now. Most of your questions are best left for an attorney. Can you keep up the Plan A while you do your research? <P>Lastly try to relax, I know it's tough but learning how to relax when this stuff peaks is the only way I lasted. Try this out. Sit down on something comfy and take deep slow breaths for a few. Then reach over and pour a double of single malt scotch and light up a cigar while listening to some Steely Dan. Don't drink, smoke or care for that kind of music? Do it anyway it will give you something else to not like for a while. Just kidding (kinda).<P>Mike<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited March 10, 2001).]

Update..<P>So, we went to counseling seperately (same counselor) this past weekend (sat morning). My wife feels she got a lot out of it and seemed to react positively. The counselor believes my wife has some serious emotional things to work out before she can even deal with the marriage.. she needs space, unsure of direction, serious guilt and shame, trouble expressing her feelings etc.<P>We had a great Sat and Sun, loving, kind, etc.. she went to church with me (first time) and was very giving. Plus, we had great sex (1st time in 2 mo.)<P>I was scheduled for business to go to the city where my wife works during the week. I told her during the weekend that I had to go mon-wed and that we should get together etc.<P>We did and saw each other quite a bit. However, she refused to stay with me at the hotel. Also, avoids giving me her corporate apt address or phone #. She says, use my cell phone, that's why i have it.<P>I tried calling her late my last night there and couldn't reach her via cell, which is not unusual. This bothered me because I obviously have trust problems, but particularly I think I should have her room phone #.<P>So we talked tonight and I told her I really would appreciate the number so I could reach her when needed. She became very defensive automatically and extremely irrational. She refuses to give it to me and said I would rather have a divorce than give it to you. She says that this just shows how controling I am, how I don't trust her etc.. All me.<P>I thought this reaction was very very suspicious and I believe that there may not be a corp apt and it's just BS and that she is staying with OM. So I called his home and he didn't answer (caller ID). She immediately called me and asked why did I immediately call him. She said he called her and said I called. Really? She proceeded to say that I have all the problems and I just eventually said goodbye.<P>I know everyone advocates Plan A and to deal with it, but I just feel like no matter what good is done that this is being built on a pack of lies. I know she's still communicating and now maybe spending all this time with him. And lieing to me every step of the way.<P>So here's my question.. I would like to save my marriage and she obviously loves me, misses me, misses her home, and we make progress in Plan A. How do I save this marriage knowing that there's so much obvious deceit. How do I react to all this?? <P>I am very hurt, and simply want to shock her and say that I can't accept these rules she has made and try to build our relationship within these guidelines. The maybe I can have some peace. Maybe she'll wake up?<P>At the same time I do not want to jeapordize counseling which she thought was helpful. Of course she has to go seperately but the counselor is here where I live which means she would have to come home.<P>I need guidance on how to react to all this. I love my wife, but I don't know if I am willing to try and build a relationship with these rules.<P>HELP!<P>K<P>

One last thought..<P>Whenever I address these trust issues with my wife, she becomes extremely defensive and hostile. Yes I am very careful not to LB and I address it extremely cautiously. <P>Her perspective is that I am "testing" her and am not really being sincere, but merely putting on an "act" to get her to open up. She says I am just building fantasies and that's my decision. Of course I always point out that she can put them to rest by telling me the truth and she simply says "what's the point and I already have you don't listen". Let me say, she doesn't tell me much at all.<P>What is going on in this persons head??????<P>K

Hello Karl,<P>She would wish to get a divorce rather than give you her hotel number. I think you are correct that she is staying with the OM. Unfortunately she seems to wish to have two separate lives. How exciting it must be for her to live with her lover for most of the week and to come home and be with her loving husband during the weekends. This is just my opinion Karl but I would doubt that she will change her behavior because there is no incentive to do so. I cannot imagine any husband accepting this situation. My guess is that you will simply need to tell her that you plan to divorce her immediately and see if the fog lifts. The situation is probably pretty good for the OM also since you mentioned that her spending is out of this world. I am sure she probably is spending some on this guy. He has no pressure since she goes back to you for the weekend and he is not forced to make any committment. A wife living with another man and refusing to give her phone number to her husband is ridiculous Karl. You are a much better person than I am. I know that you love her but I have seen the power of tough love. It is easy to stay in a fantasy world when there are no consequences to the behavior. You are thrilled that your wife will make love to you after a two month period. I think that you deserve so much better than this. Good luck.

Karl,<P><BR>I entirely agree with your Corp. Apt speculation and at best I can only stretch to the point that maybe to OM is staying at the Corp apt. with her. All the strangely defensive things you have described are what we call the "fog". I think you should seriously reconsider the "shock" approach for the time being. She was willing to start the I want a divorce speech over asking for her apt # since the cell didn’t seem to work, so the shocking her path will only drive her deeper into the "FOG" and away from you.<P>You did mention that your Plan A is proceeding well and she went to a therapist. That’s great, keep up the good job. Did she schedule the next appointment? As long as she will keep going to the therapist and they are decent, he'll/she'll play the bad guy (shock) for you. I think most therapists immediately see through the WS lies of not cheating and that the betrayed spouse just has jealousy and control issues. Since your both going to the same one, I would also guess that you could determine a little of what she's doing by what the therapist wants to work with you on. Like leaning to be more "intimate/affectionate" would be real good! But "practice controlling your temper when confronted with adverse situations" or "being too co-dependant" would be not so good.<P>I completely understand your feelings about playing with these rules. I still jokingly (kinda) say that this was a game (infidelity) I never asked to play, was never told the same rules (except here). The best thing to do is keep up your Plan A. These situations rarely get fixed overnight. Most predictions are it takes 2x or 3x the length of the affair (once finished) to reconcile. Your situation sounds very much like mine and I would guess you're in the 3x or better range. I believe this is mostly because when they are gone there are very few reminders of home, family or friends and it's very easy to be open and somewhat un-secrative with the affair. Who'll know right?<P>Best thing I can tell you to do is bite the bullet and Plan A for a predetermined amount of time longer. The amount of time is a good topic for therapist. Tell your therapist, you know the truth about the affair and ask his opinion about her truthfulness or your jealousy. I would also ask what methodologies he/she uses for affairs. Oh yea buy/loan that therapist a copy of HnHn, and SAA so they know what thinking you are subscribing to.<P>Also I would go ahead and do what you need to do in regards to obtaining concrete evidence. This quest should not include cross-examining her or any visible action that would be considered a LB. The reason I say this is as soon as you have hardcore evidence in hand, then the question is answered, you have the big stick in your back pocket and you can now entirely focus on Plan A. Knowing that I could pull out the big stick at any time helped me last much longer than if I stayed in speculation mode. If you can afford it, I would go the P.I. route for just enough to say for sure. This way it's no longer your problem to prove, or find that big stick so to speak. <P>It would seem several of these PIs specialize in affairs. One of them I spoke to, that I remember the most, would not only provided pictures (evidence) but would actually interact with the couple under surveillance. He had a knockout blond female assistant/wife and they would enter the restaurant/bar and make a point of talking to the couple. He would have his assistant make swinging type advances to the male of the party and be as close to them as possible (table or bar stool). Even party with them if possible. Any subsequent staring or watching, or blatant photos was then just considered or played off as a swinging type of thing. He liked this approach because it left very little doubt in the WS mind that they had been caught and hardly any ways out of confession when confronted with the evidence. Sorry, I digress, but being a guy, I though this was such an over the top approach and I know very few single/adulterous guys could pretend to not pay attention to this offer. He even mentioned one couple that the guy (MM) went for the offer and pissed off his girlfriend (OW) and left the bar without her. They drove him to a gay bar under the guise of it being a swingers club and ditched him. The whole time asking him about his relationship with his girlfriend and recording it all. Once again sorry I digress, but damn that’s shock therapy if I ever heard it. <P>What do you do to blow off steam? Whatever it is, keep doing it and maybe start some new things too. Every tried kick boxing, amateur boxing, SCCA car racing, Sega/Nintendo, jogging. Just anything that will burn your adrenaline and let your go to bed tiered at night. Think of it as creating your own peace of mind regardless of her actions or words.<P>I hope something written here helps or at least you got a chuckle about the surveillance technique.<P>Good luck,<BR>Mike<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited March 15, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited March 15, 2001).]

Karl - despite your involvement already with a counselor, consider a talk with Steve Harley. I disagree with threatening her with divorce or any other things that attempt to lift her fog. You cannot do this directly. Plan A on yourself, tell her you want to improve your marriage, and don't accuse her of things you know she will deny. This is the hard part. You must bit your lip, kill her with kindness, and be patient and consistent.<P>WAT

Hey Karl,<BR>Hang in there...sounds really tough.<P>I've got to say I loved Hi Infidelity's suggestions on the comfy chair, good music and a double drink. I prefer bourbon but the cigar and Steely Dan!!! Great advice.<P>I DO understand your desire to do something drastic. I would ask the group this...<BR> How long before you drop the Plan A stuff and go to Plan B?<P>I just seems to me like your WS is continuing to live a well developed double life...the best of both worlds.<P>How long IS a guy supposed to put up with it? Group?<P>John<BR>

Johnny - How long? As long as you can stand it, then Plan B. Others may offer a limited Plan A time, but each is a custom job. For example, my wife has to resolve her grief from the loss of our son before she can see what she's done in the resulting affair. Because of this special circumstance, I need to wait a longer time, perhaps.<P>WAT

What's so challenging is that my wife is honestly offended that I question our trust. <P>She still refuses to give me the phone number of her corp apt. and I have dropped it. I have made it clear that this is not right but she feels that my desire to have the number just demonstrates a force of control which she believes is a huge problem for us. She almost acts as though the phone number is a symbol.<P>It's all maddness to me. <P>I will continue to Plan A and move forward as best I can. She is in counseling and I think it will help, has already. <P>The conflict that I am now experiencing from all this is that she has set the rules over what she's willing to give, but still wants to come home and live happy each weekend. This weekend she is coming home, as usual, and will see the counselor etc. but wants to have a good time with me, paint the house, go to dinner etc.. bond. <P>On one level I want this, but on another I feel like it's totally unfair to me and hurtful.<P>I've thought about saying that we need a full break from each other for her to work out stuff, but this may interupt therapy here and reduce our ability to bond which seems very important with Plan A.<P>So, gang I am confused. I want to do the right thing and really want my marriage to work, I think my wife does too. As a matter of fact my gut tells me that she really wants it to work, but wants to be left alone in the other city to sort her mess out on her own time. When she's done sorting out things she will fully re-engage. I could be wrong and dillusional.<P>So care to comment ? <P>K<P> <P>

Well, I think your doing what your suppose to be...<BR>Plan Aing...Keep doing it, it looks like it is working--she is still seeing you and going to counseling, church...You have that..<BR>There really isn't a reason for a PI and all.<BR>There is no need for secrecy if your not hiding anything.<BR>If your strong enough for this, which it looks like you are, plan A, plan A, plan A. I think you know that your doing what is right now...Its when things are going differently that you may need to take a different approach.<BR>I didn't have to go through this while my H was having his A, so I commend you for doing the plan Aing....I didn't know about the MB and just gave him the option me or leave..He ended it (I did a lot to end it) the next day. But there wasn't much left and it was basically a weak emotional affair that lasted 2 months. So, in a way, I was lucky...I didn't have to fight this ultimate fight you are in...Good Luck--Keep fighting by plan Aing--I really think your doing GREAT!

Don't want to be a downer but I think your wife is in a full blown affair at this point and uses the excuse that you are CONTROLLING HER by asking for her phone number as a way to turn the attention off of the situation at hand, YOU ARE MARRIED FOR GOODNESS SAKES! I have heard a lot of things but this one is a new one to me but that is just MY OPINION, I could be wrong (STRANGER THINGS HAVE HAPPENED)! The MB site says that since she is willing to go to counseling that that is a good sign. So keep Plan A'ing, since it is obvious that she is not going to admit anything of her own free will. Only you know how much you can take and how much you don't need to know, but I think you are doing an excellent job of keeping your sanity in this! I really think counseling would be a great help for her to see from a third persons perspective that she is acting VERY SECRETIVE to the man she made vows to forsake all others. Update us on how counseling and the weekend went, but i'm sure i don't have to tell you that!

karl you are doing a major love buster by not haveing respect for yourself. when the betrayer gains as much control as your wife has they feel justified in useing it. the no telephone number, no address. call her workplace and get it. she is accusing you of not have trust ha ha thats good. who, in their right mind would have any trustin her. the thing that seems to turn so many situations like yours around is filing. how could you be any more unhappy with her out of the home completely than you are now? get control of money , not to cheat her out of her part , but to make sure she doesn't cheat you. if and when you divorce then you can settle up. I really believe there are people who have no feeling for others and do not respond to kindness. their appearance of respond is not real and only is used to allow them to continue their selfish behavior. take care of yourself and turn her away for the time being. I hope for your best you deserve more

okay Joelle--If he loves his wife and he wants to work it out--then how is filing for divorce at this point helping?<BR>I probably would not have fought for my H, but that is before a read all the info out there on it...My major is psychology and I respect those who study cognitive and behavioral issues...So, from this board you can find information and doctoral suggestions...On the board we support, we don't challenge one another, we make suggestions....We try to be helpful ( not nasty).<BR>Whether he does or doesn't file for divorce this early...she'll be where she is...that won't help her see her H in a nice light....will it?<BR>He loves his wife, and he is trying to help her through what some will think of as a sickness.<BR>What some people think of as a fight between God and another realm....<BR>How come so many people don't divorce...If the divorce rate is 50%<BR>The infidelity rate is 80%<BR>Do the math here-- All 50% of divorce are not from infidelity---So, that is a LOT of people that don't divorce--why because there much to understand about infidelity- how the brain chemically works, etc....<BR>so, try to find other ways to be helpful....<BR>At least do some research before giving advice...

hi crete. your respect educational attainment? I have a m.a. in psychology and considerable work toward a phd. in same field. what is a doctorial suggestion? and I think maybe you are confusing honesty and candor with nasty. Im not nasty. I love the victim enough to try and help them to stand up for themselves. you sound much like so many in todays world who would pardon the wrongdoers and blame the victim. do you remember shakespeare? remember a phrase, sometime we must be cruel to be kind. think about what that really means? the math? 30% recovery? how many of those recovered becaused they were drug screaming and kicking back in the real world of respecting your spouse through having to face the loss of their family. you sound as though you are a high toned person. do you define the behaviors which fit into this board? or is there room for others to voice their ideas too? thanks for reading if you happen to do that and no hard feelings