Hi Karl,<P>Let me start by saying that I am one who could not Plan A with an affair being flung in my face. I had to see some hard evidence of my spouse being willing to straighten himself out before I would even consider maintaining contact with him,much less the same living space. I was scared stiff of the prospect of parenting 3 kids alone and the possibility of losing my husband and my marriage and my family and all that I held dear by taking a hard nosed appraoch.However,I could not have mantained enough mental and emotional stability to effectively parent and maintain a household and part time job with my spouse living a single lifestyle and being uncommitted to the marriage. I honestly believe that it was my ability to present myself as totally capable of living without him that turned him around so quickly. We have been recovering for a year and a half now and have a marriage that is better than it ever was and that is just about everything that I could ever have hoped for. I could not make that statement before the crisis of my H's affair.That all said,you have some idea of my background when considering my reply.<P>You have said in previous posts that your wife's affair has been going on for quite some time.She has stated that the PA was over last year. From what you disclose, I do not believe that to be true. When one has nothing to hide, there is no reason for an ounce of defensiveness when asked to disclose vital information that will rebuild trust and promote healing after such a deep wound as an affair has been inflicted on a partner.Her attempt to pass off your request for her apt address and phone number, as you trying to control HER, is a common coping mechanism among WSs called projection.She's simply using the "you're trying to control me" excuse as a way to make you feel guilty and unintitled to information she should have no problem providing if she had nothing to hide. I think that you can bet your bottom dollar that she is living with OM during the week.<P>My own WS was a very depressed man in the midst of a MLC at age 36. My part in the demise of the quality of our marriage was that I let my children's needs take priority over the needs of my H and the health of my marriage. I think that is a common mistake mothers make. I was far from being a terrible spouse. I think that a very important question to ask ourselves, when considering how long to engage in Plan A, when a WS does not exhibit concrete, consistent behaviors that indicate they are<BR>being proactive and sincere about working on the marriage is......"What kind of spouse have I been in the past?" If, in all honesty, you have been a rotten spouse, then there is much to prove in Plan A and you may be one who needs to continue in that mode for some time so that WS can be sure that you yourself are committed and motivated to make the necessary changes required to make the marriage successful. If however, you are the common variety spouse, who has been well intentioned all along and have simply have made some mistakes and been neglectful of your spouse's needs,then it is my belief, that a consistent display of your willingness to seriously put forth the effort that was previously lacking and a statement of understanding your part in the demise of the marriage and a statement of a willingness to forgive and move forward coupled with a short duration in Plan A (which all of the above is)is all that you can do in the initial stages of trying to recover your marriage. I believe that if you are the common variety spouse, a long drawn out time in Plan A,continuing to accept a WS's cheating behavior without removing and protecting yourself simply serves to demonstrate to WS that you are needy and weak and willing to sacrifice your self dignity just for the sake remaining married, and in a poor quality marriage at that. Weak and needy is far from attractive.<P>Your wife's willingness to go to counseling is a good sign. However, you should be fully aware that there are many BS who can testify to the fact that their WS went to counseling and continued with the affair the entire time they were appearing to be making an effort to reconcile the marriage. The part of your situation that concerns me is that your wife is not willing to make available her whereabouts 5 days out of the week. How can she sort herself out when she is on a fantasy high with OM during the week and has her nice,stable,understanding H to come home to on the weekends? I would be much more impressed at her attempts at counseling if she made available her apt phone number.Otherwise you have no consulation that her effort at counseling is any more than a way to continue living as she choses while attempting to somewhat appease you to maintain the stability a marriage provides.<P>I found my own WS unwilling to honestly recommit and make serious efforts towards rebuilding until there was a serious consequence to his cheating behavior. Once there was a serious likelihood that he would lose his wife,his kids,his house and the respect of family and friends he seriously reconsidered his thoughtless,selfish behavior. With no consequence there was simply no motivation to change anything. He could have the best of both worlds. That is why I found it necessary to take the position of acting "as if" we were divorced while he was unable to decide what he wanted.Acting "as if" clearly showed him the reality of what he would be chosing if he chose to continue in a relationship with OW. Prolonged Plan A does not offer that benefit. <P>You can still be loving and supportive and concerned for your wife, demonstrating Plan A behaviors and changes when you do have contact with her, but your own well being has to become your priority. In that way you maintain your sanity and dignity and above all your self esteem which has probably taken a severe beating in all of this. I believe it is nothing short of crazy for a WS to think a BS will tolerate the disrespect of an ongoing affair.There has to be some semblence of reality interjected into the fantasy of an affair,or else, you run the very real risk of having to cope with the pain indefinitely. Prolonged Plan A offeres no more of a guarantee at repairing your marriage than outlining very real and reasonable consequences to cheating behavior and then proceeding to make those consequences a reality. All of this is simply MHO. All the best to you!<BR>

Karl,<P>Have you read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough?" Many of his points apply directly to you. <P>mthrrhbard hit it right on the nose with the issue of respect. You need to do what is right to repair yourself and your contribution to the original breakdown of the relationship (i.e. Plan A for a time proportional to amount of changes required). Then, if your W isn't willing to come clean on her own and open up with honesty, you could take Dobson's TOUGH LOVE approach. It's from a chapter of his book called "Opening the Cage Door." Here is his example of what to say ("The Freedom Letter"):<P>Dear Spouse, <P>I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." <P>This approach is confrontational but it demands a response and increases the level of respect that your W will have for you (and you will have for yourself) no matter what her decision is.<P>Here is a link to a Dobson newsletter that summarizes his book; but, I would recommend reading the entire thing.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/A0011702.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/A0011702.html</A> <P>I tried the TOUGH LOVE speech too early because my W was still in total denial ("we're just friends and you can't tell me who I can be friends with") and I didn't have any hard evidence. I also did it verbally over the phone and I don't think that is as effective as a letter (maybe even a certified letter would be good). <P>Now, I have the evidence but I'm using the Plan A approach and making the correct changes in me first to try to make my W's decision to walk away as difficult as possible. Her relationship is a long distance, e-mail and telephone EA with an ex-boyfriend from high school that she hasn't seen for 15 years. The distance buys me time to extend the Plan A for a while before swinging in with the big stick and switching to Plan B. I am willing to take it to the wall emotionally on myself because we have two wonderful children and I would likely be at Plan B now if it weren't for them. My W and I are also in counseling (me individually and couples). My W doesn't think she needs individual even though she has been diagnosed clinically depressed.<P>Good luck to you in your crisis. I hope things work out for all. But, taking control with the Dobson approach will build your self respect and pushes for resolution to get out of limbo.<P>jaboom

Gotta jump in here. I didn't find MB til two weeks ago. We are almost 7 months from D day. My H is WS (see his posts under "unbeleivable). He was totally defensive while contact was going on, about 3 months after D day. Should I have trusted him? He##,NO, he lied and cheated. EA?PA. Short but "sweet"(yuck)<BR>Plan A, I did not. HE DID. Once the fog lifted. I told him the morning of D day that I would not wait for him to make up his mind and be OH so grateful for choosing me. My own H.<BR>Married 27 years,at the time. That I was moving on with MY life and he could just go. I let him go...and he came home that very day. The day realized he would lose me. He came clean. Bottom line, he didn't want to lose me but you know what, I really didn't want him if he didn't want me. I am better than that. and Karl, so are you. No great insight, I'm just telling you what worked for me. Without my realizing it, I had had ENOUGH> <BR>I know this against all the teachings of this board but trying to be nice sure didn't work.