By the way, 72 hours and counting. One goal reached.

Clarity,<P>WELCOME!!! Its nice to have WS's come forward. I am , of course, a BS. H walked out and left 4 months ago for OW and I no longer exist unless he wants to yell at me or harrass me but that is another story....Anyways, think of OW this way-she has already cheated on her H what would stop her from cheating on you? You have a good head on your shoulders and it takes a BIG MAN to do what you are doing. In the long run it will pay off. Please hang in there and follow all the advice. Please feel free to give us BS's some good insight-we are also in a fog of what is actually going on with a WS.....I will send out a special prayer for you and your wife tonight.....

Thank you, Trs, for your encouragement and prayers. I really must again thank all of you for your support. You've truly been wonderful for me. I'm still not the best person to ask about WS's perspective (still coming out of it), but I will say this: it was a genuine treat last weekend to be home alone and doing harmless, innocent things I didn't need to feel guilty for. What a relief! I was proud of myself for a change.<P>I've already posted that the Fog is a powerful thing. It traps you before you realize what's going on and lets you rationalize and justify almost anything you do. I can't really explain it. The better you become at rationalizing your indiscretions, the easier it is to commit worse and worse ones until you're so convinced that what you're doing is o.k. (and even "right") that you can't be objective anymore. The "splendor" of the OP makes you blind to everything else. Honestly, the WS's judgement is totally ruined. I'm still learning how to come out of it. Thanks to all of you for helping me.

Clarity,<P>Tell us more about what made the first cracks in the fog. From this side it is so thick we cant tell what can affect it. <P>It was really interesting what you said about the justifications and rationalizations. How did you begin to see them for what they are?<BR>Lora

Hope it's OK to jump in. First let me say, Thank You to WSs who post. It really helps us BSs to understand.<P>Clarity?, How courageous of you to come forward before something worse happened. The EA is bad enough but at least you spared your W the "pictures " we victims of a PA have to bear. <BR>I have printed a copy of this entire thread for my H to read. He is out of town on business tonite. D-Day was Aug 20 but contact by phone and online continued til Nov 10. He says he didn't miss her, it wasn't withdrawal, he was just trying to "fix" everything. I don't know exactly what was said during that last contact but SOMETHING made him see her because he has been different ever since. He says he always knew what was here was "better" but it's hard to accept that, given the PA. Short lived, yes but long enough to rip us asunder. It also began with friendship over the internet. She happens to work in a toen her travels to for work.<BR>We spoke to her online on night, I think Sept. 16. She was complaining about her horrible marriage and I asked her if her H loved her. (her H doesn't know) and she said Yes, he does. This floored my H. He said it would never have happened if he had known that. He assumed that because she said she hated her H, that he must hate her too. That was an eye-opener, I think. One thing I did say was that you really don't KNOW anything that SHE hasn't told you. Knight in shining amour syndrome seems to be a common thread. <BR>You can be anything you want to be online and just because 1)You think you're being "truthful" doesn't mean you are and 2) the other person, online looking for love, may not be truthful either. There are ethics involved here.<BR>

Thanks, Lora and Wounded, for welcoming me as the others have. I wish I had great insight for you on how the Fog began to break for me. Something always felt "wrong" about the whole situation, I'll say that right off the top. I knew what I was doing was wrong and I knew it was because I was trying so hard to hide it. There was always a little piece of me that was saying "This isn't the right thing to do and relationships that are predicated on this kind of behavior don't work. You know it's true." I was addicted to the validation, though, and so i couldn't separate myself from it. That little worm of concscience kept at me though, and I think the Fog really began to break for me the first time I saw my wife cry simply because I wasn't affectionate anymore and that I had withdrawn from our marriage. That image will always hurt me. Any image I have of her crying over this (there are a few) brings me to my knees.<P>I also started waking up when OW started talking about a future together and what a certainty it was. The situation started to get out of my control. All of a sudden I was a secret being kept from her estranged husband and I was being told about the intimate parts of their divorce. She didn't love her husband, but I still wanted no part of any divorce proceeding and there was a possibility I could have been. It was not somewhere I wanted to be or should have been. The Fog kept me there, though, because I was addicted, until I made one of several attempts to rescue my marriage and OW told me it was hopeless and that it would fail. She promised me I was missing out on something special with her ("fate") and never once, like she might have in the beginning, told me I had a chance. Then, if you've seen earlier posts, you'll know she revealed that there was someone else and that she wanted me but was eager to mess around with this guy until I came around. I started to believe I was getting manipulated. That's not very attractive. My wife sat there quietly through all of it and even though there is so much work for us to do, I can tell just by the relief in my spirit that I've made the right decision. There's a feeling that comes with doing what's right. I didn't have it the whole time I was "confused."<P>Something else: I came here and started reading and realized I was telling myself the same lies all other WSs tell themselves. I told myself it was fate and that I loved my wife but wasn't in love with her (what a pile of crap that statement is) and that it just wasn't "there" anymore. Not true. If it was there before it can be again. It takes work that I wasn't doing. Coming here was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I realized I wasn't unique and that I was deluding myself if I thought I'd truly found my "soulmate". Objectivity can be embarrassing, by the way. I was a child for months. I'm starting to grow up now.

clarity,<P>I admire your courage and strength to come here and post. My H also fells into the validation trap. What hurt me the most was that what my H and I had was really good and I still can not believe he risked it all for something so unworthy. It was a very superficial game. My H got caught up in all OW problems and thought he too was the knight in shinning armor. OW told him exactly what he wanted to hear, you are a great dad-how she knew?- and how she could say this while he was at her house abandoning his family and jeopardizing their security and even their life (I was pregnant at the time and he contracted an STD from her).<P>You say that your marriage left you feeling unloved and unwanted. I have a hard time with this because my H also felt this way. I admit I was not validating him and I was not telling him what he wanted to hear. Why, well partly because I was overcoming the death of my father and was extremely ill in the first 4 months of pregnancy (which is when the A started). I really could not win. Had I known I would have done anything to make him feel love and wanted. When he told me the "I don't think I love you anymore" stuff, I tried my best to "win him back" but he shut me out. Sure I could have told him the same BS ran around throwing myself at him and acting 12. However I am not 12, I have integrity and because I love my H I tell him the truth. I don't want to play games and I don't want to be a superficial false person. Sometimes I feel as if the BS get punished for being real and not some fantasy. So you say that your W admits that she was not meeting your needs- why- was there something she was going through? Also the main cause of my H unfulfillment was that he did not love himself nor was he able to meet his own needs. So I ask you, if your W can not for some reason (and there are many in a marriage-i.e. work, kids, stress, finances, struggles with one's self) can you look to yourself for fulfillment get it from friends or family. I realize it is important to meet each other's needs, but relying on only one person for all that is a tall order. I admire you for being humble enough to come here and it shows you want to find a healthy way to get validation and support. As for OW anyone who really cares for someone has THEIR best interest at heart not their own. As for your OW- do you know her H side of the story? My H OW cried about her abusive boyfriend- and yes he was abusive she came to work with black eyes- yet she failed to mention that she also abused him - hit him upside the head with a frying pan etc etc. OW tells you exactly what you want to hear- I guess I could have done the same thing for my H but that not being a true friend. How is your W doing? Does she have a good support system?<BR>I wish you both understanding and peace.<P><BR>Joyful

Thanks for another supportive response. I should clarify something (since there's so much clarity going around). I never felt unloved. My wife always loved me and always showed me that she did. I felt undesired. Yes, I needed validation and part of the solution for me is that I REALIZED I needed validation in this way. It's something we're working on together. She never once abandoned me. Ever. She's doing very well and so am I, really. I think both of us always knew I'd get my head on straight. She always trust my love for her, even when my head was so far up my . . . that I couldn't see. We had problems. I did the wrong thing with those problems. I know we can fix those problems. I only wish I didn't hurt so many people coming to that knowledge. I've lost a lot here, but I know there is a lot to be gained. We're relieved. We'll be happy.

Clarity,<P>First you have to understand that for us BS's it is GREAT to have you here. I guess you can say in a way that we are using you for our own info. Not many WS's males come forward here and so it is hard for us women to understand everything. That is why you are getting a ton of responses. You and your wife are very blessed with a second chance that you both deserve. Can I ask how long the A lasted? Thats all, I really do not want to pry anymore. This situation is still real delicate for you I think.....however you are doing awesome. Some good books to read (I always recommend them) Surviving An Affair, Torn Asunder and Private Lies. They will help you both understand that all of your emotions are normal. Thanks for helping US Clarity......

Thank God for your W, Clarity? You are on the right track. All the best to you.

Dear Clarity,<P>First off, I would like to say that your posts here have been very helpful to me. I have even shared them with my H (WS). <P>This brings me to my question. It is personal and if you do not want to answer it I respect that. <P>Question: Did you ever meet the OW in person? You wrote that you had a EA. Does this mean there was no PA? <P>My H said that while he could relate to some of your statements he says that:<P>1. Since it appears that you did not actually meet the OW in person, your advice is not fully applicable to him since he is in the midst of an EA & PA. Mind you he thinks a little too much of his opinions and feels that he is not in the fog. Because he says he knows when OW is manipulating him and when she is showing genuine 'love' for him. He also feels he knows what he is doing and even though he can not make any plans for the future (due to his waffling - which won't admit to), he is well aware of his decisions. <P>Basically he thinks you are not qualified to speak on his 'experience.' Personally, I think my H is full of malarkey. He is haughty and currently has a very bad attitude. His OW thinks she is a great person and H is convinced the is this great person. Now he is beginning to act like he is this great person who is in control of himself. Well at least that what it sounds like at times. <P>2. When did you come to realize you were in the fog?<P>3. When did you begin to see the real side of the OW?<P>Thanks for your help. I know you are concentrating on your efforts. I really appreciate your posts. They have been of immense support to me to see your viewpoints. <P>L.<BR>ps: I don't agree with my H's somewhat arrogant attitude. Keep up the good work.<P>

Hi Orchid. I'll try to answer your questions as well I as can. I'm having kind of a tough day. I don't know if I'm qualified to speak on your husband's experience or not. I'm not even really qualified to speak on my own experience, let alone anyone else's. Everyone's experience is unique in some ways, but I think there are all sorts of similarities at the root of most affairs. I never had a PA, but I don't think that matters. I was attached to another woman because she provided something I needed. It started innocently enough and I became selfish and chose to ignore what was right because I convinced myself that I had truly found "the one" for me. How it is that "fate" let me marry someone else before I met "the one" is beyond me. Fate has a sense of humor, I suppose.<P>It was easier to feel things for the OW than my wife. The relationship required much less effort, it wasn't broken like I thought my marriage was, and so it became easy to just tell myself it was where I should be. It was an illusion. I knew it was wrong all the time (just morally wrong. Period.) and the guilt is what lifted my fog. How could I be serious about a relationship that made me feel like such a bad person? Plus, I never and couldn't leave my wife. If it was really over with her, why couldn't I leave? When I started thinking logically about how eager the OW was to break up my marriage and how I couldn't leave (oh, and how terrible I felt about myself) it became clear that I was fooling myself. I told myself I wasn't in love anymore. That was my fault and not my wife's fault. I had the same tingly feelings for my wife that I did for the OW once upon a time. They went away because I let them. When I figured out that I was telling myself the same things that SKM was and some others, I realized I was falling into a trap, not falling in love. My wife loved me from the beginning. I overlooked that because saving my marriage wasn't convenient. I realized I didn't even know the OW and learned from others that all I saw was her good stuff that drew me to her in the first place. I didn't know the real person. How could I trust it? Why would I risk losing everything I had for it? I couldn't.<P>I don't know what's in your husband's head. I don't know how your marriage was or how his relationship is with his OW. I decided to learn from the experiences others have had on this web site that said affairs lead to beart break and pain and don't work out in the end. All I read about is regret. That's when I woke up.

Dear Clarity,<P>You have done well. Excellent. You have provided the needed answers. Thank you so much for taking the time during this rough period of yours to give me a personal respose. <P>I hope your day gets better. The withdrawal period is going to continue rough, but it is only for a 'short while' in comparison to the lifetime of your marriage. Think of it as having the flu. Take care of yourself and family and the symptoms will go away.<P>Be healthy and happy,<BR>L.

Orchid,<P>So glad I could help you a little bit. Thanks, as always, for your supportive response to me. It touches me that so many of you can take time away from your own suffering to show compassion to a WS. It says more than you realize about your character.<P>I will be okay. My withdrawl is pretty heavy right now but I feel myself getting stronger, largely thanks to the contributions all of you have made in my life. I hope I can make equally helpful contributions to you. Don't be afraid to ask me questions about what happened to me. It helps me achieve clarity to talk about things with people. <P>Thank you again.

Something else I would like to say is that, even though I'm suffering right now, it feels wonderful to be doing the right thing. I spent way too long doing things that made me hate myself. I almost feel like I can laugh again. I love it.