Member posted March 20, 2001 08:54 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>I just read the article about how having your first baby puts a huge strain on a marriage. It confirmed all my fears about becoming a parent. I have been married 7 years and am very happy in my relationship. We have no kids, by choice. The thing is, I have no desire for kids. I only hear bad things about them. Why ruin a perfectly good marriage by bringing a little tyrant into it? We're a dual career couple, and I love my job. Even if the old biological clock were to start ticking and I had a baby, I would keep the career. So, what's the dilemma? We're devout Catholics; we even use Natural Family Planning to avoid pregnancy. Needless to say, the DINK lifestyle is not the Catholic ideal. I feel guilt and pressure over it. My question is... why bring a child into the world when you're already happy and can't see anything good in it? Are there some people who just aren't meant to be parents???

Hawthorne---I am not Catholic, so my view may be a little different than the background that you come from. I do believe that not all people are meant to be parents. I also do not think that is a bad thing. Let's face it, there's a lot of people who shouldn't be parents that have kids, and a lot of times there are major problems within the household. <P>I have a lot of respect that you realize that you do not desire to have a family at this point. There's also many people that have children because they feel that they should, not because they truly are ready for a family. If you are happy as a couple and your husband feels the same as you, then I say live life to the fullest. Just because you choose to do that as a couple rather than with children does not in any way make you a bad person.

I think you have to decide what is right for you. Personally, I find my kids endlessly interesting people, not tyrants (of course, they are out of the demanding baby stage, which helps ).<P>However, many people are not meant to be parents, and I fully beleive that those who are not "called" to be parents should not be parents, so I support your decision 100%. <P>Ever thought about exploring other branches of Christianity? You may decide that you are still most in-tune with the Catholic church, or you may find one that you are better supported by in both your faith and your lifestyle.<P>Good luck--<P>Kathi<p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited March 21, 2001).]

Ah yes...<P>I cannot ignore this post...<P>(If you want to find out more about my story...<BR>...check out...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> and/or <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>.)<P>The relevant info is that I too am Catholic...<BR>...<B>and</B>...<BR>...I am just recently divorced (this Monday in fact)<P><B>Now about your post</B>!<P>My understanding of the Catholic faith...<BR>...what you are doing is perfectly fine.<P>You recognize your inability to fulfill all aspects of your marital commitment, and understand that you will not be able to give a child the kind of environment you know you should! This is a bold... honest... and open... realization on your part.<P>What good would it do to bring a child into this world...<BR>...who doesn't have the full efforts of the parents to raise them.<P>Don't take this as derogatory in any way!<P>------------------------<P>Now does that mean you're you can't live your life as a Catholic... no way!<P>You can use your life (and your H too) as first rate examples of Christian love.<P>You can be maternal... as any mother... in all your relationships!<BR>Your H can be paternal... as any father... in all his relationships!<BR>Your love, affection, and giving to each other and everyone who you come into contact... is very Christian.<P>Choosing to be a "cafeteria catholic"...<BR>...to discard elements of the fullness of the faith...<BR>...should never be an option...<BR>Pray on and for that fulness!<BR>Changing the fullness for another faith... is much more a life changing decision... than having children.<P>I only wish you wouldn't refer to children as "tyrants"...<BR>...they too are a gift!<BR>...maybe not a gift for your life... but a very precious gift!<P>Your use of NFP is more than just noble...<BR>...it allows your H to truely become one flesh with you...<BR>...in not just a physical way... but psychologically... and even spiritually.<P>I would hope you search for <B>joy</B>... in life and not just happiness. Happiness can be shallow... joy in your relationship with God is deep!<P>Loving your neighbor as yourself...<BR>...can be done without children.<P>The ideal is definitely to be open to children in your marriage... but it is not a necessity.<P>What does my situation bring to my opinion.<BR>My feeling is my W had virtually no capability in bringing up children...<BR>...she had one child from a previous marriage... at the time we married... and our marriage (I feel) was to give her son a <I>responsible</I> parent.<BR>Then when we had 2 children of our own (knowing how much I wanted children)... she became overwhelmed!<BR>She now lives with her 2 time divorced paramour...<BR>...in the state next door...<BR>...has every other weekend visitation (where she ignores them)...<BR>...and has over the course of 18 months... had but 2 weekday visits with them.<P>I would suggest you pray on your situation...<BR>...do it regularly...<BR>...ask if providence should lead you to becoming a mother!<P>God loves you...<BR>...as much as you love your neighbor!<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 21, 2001).]

What a day for this thread to pop up.<P>Man......<P>I am really struggling now.<P>Been married for 20 years. Have three daughters, and you could not ask for finer girls. Seriously. No problems with them at all. I love them dearly.<P>But I can undertand the concerns you have. Life caught up with me. THe demands...responsibilities...obligations...<P>My marriage got crowded out.<P>I got involved in a pretty strong EA. Still having difficulty breaking it off.<P>I"ve run out of answers. I've tried juggling everything until I am wearing down. <P>They say over 50% of marriages end in divorce. What about the remaining marriages. Many of them are struggling. <P>I am a christian....with strong beliefs. But somewhere, I lost my way. It is a lonely place. I don't even know where to start.<P>If you can start out a family with a good marriage, which I had at one time....just...make sure....that relationship stays at the forefront.<P>You will regret it later...if you don't.<P>Sad, is it not...how many people are divorcing today...that have been married 25+ years....they see the kids off...then realize they no longer know each other...and drift away. So sad.

Hawthorne - I commend you for pondering these questions before you have a child. Of course, you have to make the choice and anyone who criticizes you for not having children should be ignored.<P>That said, My wife and I had two beautiful boys. Now we have one beautiful boy - our youngest was taken by cancer a year and a half ago after two bone marrow transplants during 5 1/2 years of treatments. Plenty of hardship and heartbreak can be avoided by not having any. But, you know, even with all we went through, I'm thankful we had him for awhile. He set for me the standard for honesty, bravery, and outlook on life. I have a completely different perspective on life and when I grow up, I want to be just like him.<P>WAT

Hawthorne, I, too, am childfree, and am here to offer my support.<P>I am 45 years old, and STILL, people tell me, "Oh, you have time, you'll change your mind."<P>No I won't. Because I have never, ever wanted children. Oh, there was a time in my life when it was an abstract thing that I just assumed I would do someday, but I never really wanted to do it.<P>People will tell you it's "selfish" not to have children. How? How is it any more selfish than having a child because you want a little clone of yourself, or so you can try not make the same mistakes your parents made, or so you have someone to take care of you in your old age? <P>Those of us who have chosen not to have children often have far more self-knowledge than some of those who do. And those with children who would tell you that you should do it probably wish they had your life. <P>Rearing children is the hardest job in the world. Those of us who aren't cut out for it oughtn't to have them. Unfortunately, there are a lot more of us than you'd think, but many of them had children because they were afraid to face that about themselves, they succumbed to family pressures, or a variety of other reasons. And we are seeing the results in a nation full of emotionally neglected kids being raised by parents who want to be "buddies", not parents.<P>I am not Catholic, so I can't speak to the spiritual aspects of your decision. I know that accepting children born to the marriage is part of the deal. I know many practicing Catholics who are in the dilemma you face. Catholicism is not an easy religion to practice, and it could be argued that it is not applicable to the realities of life today. I know one woman who was ordered by her doctor not to have another baby or it would put her life in danger. She used artificial contraception, went to confession, and the priest refused to give her absolution because she would not agree to put her life in danger by not using birth control. As a non-Catholic, that seems unfairly rigid and barbaric to me.<P>There are many "cafeteria Catholics" out there, who are trying to find a balance between the religion (the doctrines of which are set by men who live in a protected environment who who do not have to face the issues we do) and the realities of life. I have one friend who consults spiritualists and reads psychobabble as a way out of her conundrum, and I have suggested that she look into the Episcopal church, which in the U.S. retains much of the ritual of Catholicism (being essentially Anglican high church) but less rigid.<P>Not having children is no GUARANTEE of a better marriage, but it does allow you to focus more on your spouse. Many people with children that I know are so busy being parents they have stopped being a couple. And that's not good either. My H is needy of a great deal of attention, and our marriage would not work if we had children.<P>Good luck to you. You have support from me, whatever that's worth.

Well, I don't know if I would have had children if I had thought about it. I was Catholic (trying to find a different religion now--at 26, finding things out that don't sit well with me..) and despite using contraceptives, I have been pregnant 3 times. If its meant to be, its meant to be. My first ended in miscarriage. My second-gained 73 pounds, very risky pregnancy. My daughter was born with Down syndrome..I was 22. She turns 4 next month. Despite all the risks we had a baby boy 18 months later- again gained 68 pounds and had to end up losing almost 100- (which I'd just like to say I worked my a** off doing).<BR>If you look at all the children who are born in the world, you would realize that your odds of having one with a disability or childhood illness are great.<BR>1 in 4 have can't think _some sort of cancer.<BR>1 in 800-1200 are born with Down syndrome.<BR>I don't think the question is whether to have kids.<BR>It is about being part of a different world. I heard someone say once it is becoming a member of humanity. (or something like that).<BR>If you "want" a child, do you want that child only on a set of conditions...ie, I didn't know my D would have DS, I didn't get tested for it because I wanted my baby and not on a condition. So, its not just about having a "normal" child. Its about Risk really. Opening your heart to the greatest love imaginable with the greatest hardships life had to offer. It is an entirely different playing field (no kids vs. kids).<BR>There will be many things you will not experience without children (not to mention grand-children)<BR>but the major one is this love that no words can capture the essence of that you will have for your child.<BR>I don't know if I'd do it all over again. Everything that I have to do with my D with DS, is so normal now, but to others it is soooo much work. I said that I would go through another pregnancy like I have to have another, and right when I'm about to go get a tubal ligation, I think I may be pregnant again...But I was going to awhile ago, so it isn't a bad thing...<BR>Just don't take into account how things are now...they may not be tomorrow. I don't think anyone should be pressured to have children. <BR>I guess I don't understand why anyone would pressure anyone to have children. Purpose of what. To populate the earth..Looks like the population is fine to me...6 billion people!!!<BR>Question is why do people have children?<BR>I don't know, and I don't know if I would have had any if I didn't get pregnant in college. But I am so glad and fortunate- both mistakes, the best mistakes of my life.<BR>I only said mistakes in that I was using protection..Actually, I see them as gifts from God...there hasn't been any gift he has given me that has been better!!!

You guys are really making me think twice about having kids! Changing my religion is not an option, though. I believe in objective truth; I don't believe I can chnage that truth just because I don't like it or it inconveniences me. I guess what I'm saying is I believe the Catholic Church's teaching on kids being a good thing, I just don't have the will power to live it out right now. And, I think I have problems that separate me from most "normal" people who want and enjoy children. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced at this point that having kids just out of a sense of guilt or duty can't be agood thing!<P>

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I am confused. You say : "I don't believe I can chnage that truth just because I don't like it or it inconveniences me." OK, I agree there. But yet, you also say that while you agree with the Catholic church's position on children, that it is not something you are willing to embrace. These two things seen contradictory to me...how do you reconcile this?<P>Feel free not to answer if the question seems impertinant to you, but I am curious...my dad was Catholic but as someone above mentioned a "cafeteria Catholic" who picked and chose which teachings to embrace, so I the topic interests me...

Kam,<P>I guess I didn't put it well. I don't mean that I'm not willing to embrace the teaching. I just mean that I don't have much will power to do it. It's like if I need to lose weight by dieting...I may know that losing weight is good and know that dieting is good, but I don't have very good will power to control my eating. Does that make any sense? Theoretically, I'm willing to have a kid in the future, but right now I feel too scared and unprepared to do it. So, as far as I know, I'm following what the Church says by using natural family planning, but I'm just not ready to have a kid yet. And, as far as I can tell, even the Catholc Church deosn't command me to have a kid at any particular time. I hope that clarifies matters. I was referred to this site by another Catholic website, and when I first posted I thought everyone here was Catholic too. So, I think I took a lot for granted in not explaining things well.

The forums here are not Catholic.<P>The are, according to the sponsor Dr. Harley, they are not even exclusively for Christians...<P><B>They are meant for everyone!</B><P>Since the majority of respondents on this forum are from the english speaking world, especiallu the US, and the general makeup of populations are Christian/Catholic Christian... there are many comments, statements and prayers that are of the Christian bent.<P>But there are also many of the other faiths... Muslims...Jews... Budhists... and agnostics and athiests too.<BR>In fact, some of the most avid proponents of marriage are of these members of other... or non-faiths.<P>There are several posts that focus on the faith issues, and general inspirational posts... and you can find some in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000554.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A>...<BR>...check out my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000288.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Concepts in Christian Scripture</A>.<P>There are rarely "religious wars" on the forum...<BR>...since the emphasis is mostly on marriage issue... in the most general sense.<P>I am offended by the few anti-Catholic statements made so far...<BR>...but in my prayers... I ask for... not their acceptance...<BR>...but for their understanding... that no faith should be put down.<P>I'm glad you see in truth that "...the Catholc Church doesn't command (you) to have (children)..." and that you will keep to it's fullness.<P><A HREF="http://www.autom.teithe.gr/~vivia/peace.htm" TARGET=_blank>Peace in many languages</A> to all!<P> <P>Jim

I was just wondering..My obgyn is catholic and he doesn't prescribe birth control. Totally, only believes in the family planning method- which I understand is watching the calendar, knowing the body- when its about to ovulate, etc. I was wondering why that is acceptable in the church, but other methods are not. I mean it is a method of preventing conception. Just wanted to know? Haven't read that in the doctrine yet, don't even know if its even in the book!<BR>I didn't think any replies were "Anti-catholic"..I mean I was the only catholic in a huge family of other religions...and they felt free telling me I was going to hell, etc. So, what I read here didn't offend me in the least.. And I have yet to come across 1 catholic who has followed the doctrine immaculately...or even understood what the entire doctrine entailed.fact is in any religion we all sin, and the doctrine is what isn't sinning..so any religion any doctrine,,we all have not done exactly what we were suppose to...Good thing we have a forgiving God...but you know what I shouldn't talk about religion or politics...dredges up too much heat...<BR>Still wondering about the family planning method...my mom used it, but she only ovulated twice year...

crete,<P>I've taken off to another post the issues of anti-Catholic content... to the "Other Topics" forum at... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001486.html" TARGET=_blank>Anti-Catholic</A>.<P>As far as your interest in "Natural Family Planning"...<BR>...check out...<BR><A HREF="http://personal.boo.net/~desloge/infertile_catholic.html#NFP" TARGET=_blank>Websites on Natural Family Planning</A><P><A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/forum11.htm" TARGET=_blank>EWTN Q&A forum on Natural Family Planning</A><P><A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/WOJTLAHV.HTM" TARGET=_blank>THE TRUTH OF THE ENCYCLICAL "HUMANAE VITAE"</A><P><A HREF="http://www.aldred.demon.co.uk/nfp/bbc.htm" TARGET=_blank>Contraception - Why Not?</A><P><A HREF="http://www.usc.edu/hsc/info/newman/resources/nfp.html" TARGET=_blank>The Natural Family Planning Page</A><P> <P>Jim

Crete,<P>Well, I'll take a stab at your question; Why does the Catholic Church allow NFP and not artificial birth control (ABC)? And, does anyone follow the Church teaching in this area "immaculately"? Before I start on my theological treatise (ha!), let me say that this is a tough issue on which intelligent people disagree. Last I heard, 85% of Catholics themselves disagree with this teaching. So, don't anyone get mad at me! I'm just trying to explain why the Catholic Church teaches this. And, remember, membership in any church is voluntary, so don't take my words as a judgement on anyone.<P>That being said, I've done a lot of research on this issue, simply because I didn't understand it myself and sort of resented it. This is what I learned. The Catholic Church (CC) believes that there are two main purposes for married sex: procreation and unity. It believes that every single act of sex has to contain BOTH these elements. There are two reasons why it opposes ABC, and the reasons have to do with the two different types of ABC. The first type is the abortifacient kind, which actually expels the embryo or destroys it -- e.g., The Pill, Norplant, etc. The CC believes that life begins at the moment of conception, which is why it opposes abortion even in the first trimester and why it opposes any form of ABC that destroys or expels the newly formed embryo. But, what about forms of ABC that are not abortifacient, like condoms or foams? Well, the CC says that these kinds put an artificial barrier between the couple and thus gets in the way of the unity element. IT also closes the sex act to the possibility of procreation.<P>Why does the CC make such a big deal out of sex? Because it considers sex to be the "matter" of the Sacrament of Marriage and a sacred act.<P>So, why is NFP okay with the CC? Well, obviously it's not abortifacient. It also doesn't involve any physical barriers. It simply involves NOT having sex on a day when the woman is fertile (about 5 days per month). So, there's nothing physical to prohibit procreation or to come between the unity of the couple.<P>I know this is hard to take, and it took me a long time to come to terms with it. But, being raised Catholic, I wanted to at least give NFP a try. That was 7 years ago, and I haven't gotten pregnant yet. I think I would use NFP even if I weren't Catholic! It doesn't make you gain weight like the Pill, you don't have to fuss with condoms or foams, and it's free. I also don't like to put chemicals into my body; I'm into herbs and holistic medicine, so I like that it's 100% natural. Also, I don't like the fact that usually women are totally responsible for the birth control. NFP demands cooperation from the man too, so there's no resentment on my part. I actually know a lot of people who follow the CC teaching to the letter in this area, but I admit I hang around a pretty sheltered group! Like I said before, 85% of Catholics disagree with the teaching.<P>

I don't think it matters what religion you are, if you don't want children, don't be pressured into having them. Your attitude towards them will show.<P>In looking back over my marriage, I see that my x was not all that keen about child raising. I didn't have any problems with her style, but you could just tell she wasn't interested in child rearing. I think the big reason we had 2 kids was because her sister had 2 kids as I now see her and her sister where in some kind of competition.<P>X has been pretty much out of the kids day to day life now for almost 3 yrs. She was withdrawn from them and their activities for about a year before the affair, separation and divorce. Noe she sees them once a week, and 1-2 days every other weekend. Her career is far more important.<P>She always had a great relationship with our son, but she is destroying that. Now her d is starting to act like her, if she isn't happy, no one is.<P>If you don't want children, please don't have them.

Hawthorne, you seem to know your stuff, so maybe you can answer a question for me (if you don't mind me going off-topic briefly). Don't worry, everyone, I am not suicidal. But I am writing a novel in which the spouse of a Catholic character does commit suicide, and I need to know what the Church's "official" position on suicide and Hell is. The timeframe in which the story takes place is the early 1930's, during the Depression, so the Church's view during that time is what I'm looking for. I strive for historical accuracy when I write, particularly where religious issues are concerned.<P>Thanks for your help.

Dazed and Confused,<P>Oh, oh! I hope you don't think I'm an expert now...but I'll try my best. The Catholic Church believes suicide is a very grave sin. Before Vatican II (1960s), people who committed suicide could not be buried in a Catholic ceremony. So, your character in the 1930s could not have benn buried in a Catholic funeral or in a Catholic cemetery. That has changed now, and suicides can received regular funerals and burials.<P>As for hell, I Think the Catholic Church gives everyone the benefit of the doubt. Its conditions for going to hell are pretty severe... on has to commit a very grave sin, know that it is a very grave sin, and fully consent to do it anyway. Partial knowledge, less than full consent, emotional or physchological problems can all lessen personal responsibility. So, I don't think a priest woule ever say that someone is going (or had gone) to hell. But, there are a few fire-and-brimstone types who might, more likely in the 1930s than today. Hope this helps!

Just another interesting response on EWTN's Q&A forum:<BR><A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=198878" TARGET=_blank>EWTn Q&A</A>.<P> <P>Jim