Hi all,<P>Please clarify the following:<P>".....to me you are like a close friend who I care very much about, but just don't want to live with. I wish I did want to live with you. The truth is, even though sometimes I have had a desire to just get out & leave, most of the time I at least felt comfortable with you. I really do wish<BR>my heart would respond to all I've read, heard, seen,<BR>& remembered. <P>I do love you, L., but just not enough, & I don't<BR>fully understand why."<P>The above was an excerpt from a e-mail my H sent yesterday. He has made similar statements in the past. This is one of his sane momments where he is talking without yelling at me. He is in this mind set and uses this and other lines of reasoning (some thanks to thoughts from OW that she is the 'only' one he needs) to convince himself that he should not work on his marriage. <BR>While this sounds nice, I need to say that H has also been negligent on his paying back money he has borrowed for personal expenses (like gas and food), I have fronted family money to pay his bills and he is now refusing to pay for it. I must also state that if I never brought up the need for his reimbursing me for covering most of his expenses, he would not offer to pay for them. <P>H says his personal room rent $800.00 per month is more important than his obligations. Now, he has other options of staying places where the rent is much lower, but he refuses to consider them. He would rather make everyone else suffer so that he can have what he feels is right for him. Is this my warped viewpoint? No, this is how it is being done by H. H is living past his means and will not change his lifestyle to live within his means. He says he is stressed. Right, so am I. However, H's stress is voluntary (based on his choices), mine are forced again due to his choices. <P>So the question, in situations like this, can a wife really be a friend? What do WS's mean when they ask to be friends and continue to inflict pain and suffering?<P>L.<P><BR>

Orchid,<P>I just posted to Hopelessmom on this subject as well.<P>Your H has said almost verbatum what was said by my H. I love you but not enough. I've changed and I don't want to hurt you. It is not like I hate coming home and being with you it just that I want/need more (ie teenage tingle). BLAHBLAHBLAH.<P>Like you said H isn't acting like anybody I care to be a friend with at this point anyway.

Orchid:<P>My H said the exact same stuff to me: Translation "I never thought this whole thing through and forgot completely about the part that you would not be in my life anymore. I have never truly imagined my life without you in it as I was too busy taking you for granted to notice how much I want/need you in my life. Now that I am looking at life wihtout you I will say anything so that I do not lose you completely".<BR>"i dont understand why" translation "i don't want to look clearly or honestly at the mess I have made of everyone's lives so I will claim ignorance"<P>"i need to pay for my room right now" means "he is ashamed to show his face where people know him and their are the responsiblities he knows are his, so he can stay away in a neutral place and attempt to justify his actions, by not bad mouthing you or arguing with you and staying with her (if he is) because she helps him justify his actions.<P>Bottom line is that he is fiding from his responsiblity and the mess he had yet at the same time he is terrified to lose you completely so he is holding on to the friendship at least.<P>Guess what guys - friends don't hurt each other like this.<P>Hang in there and remain friendly soon enough he will start telling you the truth about how sick he is of the mess he made, and how he sees no way out of it because he is now also responsible for her etc.<BR>

My H said the same thing. Don't they all! He's sane again now, thank God. They say it because if they can get you to accept it(fat chance) it releaves their guilt. My response was.....I don't keep friends who lie,and betray me. That's not my definition of a friend. Why would I want you for my friend? I was lucky, as that response was just one more thing that made him realize he wasn't gonna get his cake and eat it too.

Orchid,<P> My H also wanted me to just be friends when I moved on. I let him know that if I moved on I would never talk to him again. He was upset to hear that. It's crazy, they tell you to move on, but keep the door open. I guess deep down they know they probably will want to come home.<P> I'm sorry you are having to deal with so much.<P> Lots of Hugs and Prayers<P>------------------<BR>Deb

You mean that they are not really committed to letting go of you. That there is still some doubt up there in their foggy brains. But if I say sure, I'll be your friend then he is more likely to leave because he can still "have" you and someone else? That does make sense. <P>I don't want to be friends. I will have to remain in contact d/t kids.<P>What if they know that you can live your life without them. It doesn't mean you want to but that you will survive and carry on and potentially one day find a truly wonderful man. Does this bother them or does it make them feel OK for ruining your life.<P>Any thoughts.<P>HOpelessmom

OK..I'm ready to get flamed on this, but before we start firing up our flame throwers, let me just get this thought out and remember..it's just a thought, not a defense.<BR>I don't think the "let's be friends " excuse is always an excuse. If we go way back to our early courtship days..that's exactly how we started- as friends. as we grew to love and trust we became lovers, made committments and then married. Screwed up commitments, destroyed trust, broke marriages, and have ended up...well, in most cases, not friends, or even civil aquaintances. There is a part of me (small part,way deep-down, barely whispering) that says...Maybe you have to rebuild from the bottom up...maybe you have to find a way to be friends, before you can re-fortify and re-build love and trust? I'm not saying be a doormat, pay their bills, excuse their irresponsibility, but to simply be there as a friend who can listen. Then, if it's not possible to build a friendship, do we really want a lovers relationship?<BR>OK- got my shield up- fire away!!<BR>T

Twyla<P>No flame shooting here. While I do believe that you need to learn to be friends again if you want the relationship to go on but after total destruction of yourself, marriage and kids with divorce, the last thing I would want is friends.<P>If he said, I am not sure where this is going, let's see if we can be friends , then I might consider that. Not after a divorce. No way.<P>HOpelessmom

Point well taken H-Mom, but let me give you 2 brief scenerios. I divorced after 10 years. Raising 3 kids, and never re-established any sort of friendship with my ex. As a matter of fact, civility was barely possible for me after betrayal. My sister also divorced after 10 years with 2 kids. Managed civility that then grew into friendship. My ex was so badgered by my resentment, that any contact with me or kids was a hellhole, and so rather than deal with it (a situation he created by infidelity) he took off, found another woman and now has a 2 kids. He rarely sees ours, let alone talks to them..They are the ones that suffered (drug problems, resentment/abandonment issues, poor school performance, self esteem.) My sister and her ex worked their butts off to be friends, or at least set a better example of "you don't have to agree, but you don't treat someone badly" As a result, her children have had 2 parents that helped them grow, and have been able to remain a family. All because of friendship.<BR>I regret that my anger, humiliation, and pride took over my life during and after the divorce, because it has taken my kids so long to recover (and they have, but at what cost) and I entered into another relationship emotionally wounded, and not really recovered from the first. (Current problems brought me here!!) So, my advocacy for friendship is for both streets. Renewing or concluding a marriage is a big double-edged sword.<BR>T

Hi all,<BR>Thanks so much for all your replies. Reading all your replies raises more questions.<P>1. What does WS mean by wanting to be friends?<BR>2. What is the WS definition of being a friend?<P>Being friends in the 'normal/rational' sense of the word for me means one that shares and cares for others. H continues to say that he cares for me and in a little way even loves me. Yet, his constant battles (now one sided since I am refusing to argue with him) and anger with me does not show any type of care or even love. <P>I agree that when there is cooperation, even if a marriage is dissolved, there can be a relative type of friendship, but this request to be friends while treating me worse than an enemy is to me a total misuse of the word 'friend'. I do not know of anyone who I would call a friend and allow them to treat me like H does. This is why I can no longer tolerate it from H. Right now, by his conduct, he is not my friend. I would prefer not to associate with such a person. Yet I must due to the fact that we have obligations, responsibilities and are still married. <P>Oh, this is so confusing. Can't be friends by default. I sure would like to get a hold of the WS dictionary so I could understand how they speak. <P>There was another post where someone said that WS was their best friend and now more like an enemy. I said the WS went from being their friend to fiend (an addict or diabolically evil person). That is how I see it.<P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited March 26, 2001).]

Well, here's an idea...why don't you decide how you want to be treated. Seriously..give him the ground rules on what will be tolerated, and what will not. Something along the lines of:<BR>Dear X,<BR> I'm not sure of your definition of friends, but either way our relationship goes, there are some groundrules I'm willing to establish<BR>1. Our encounters should be civilized. No name calling,no disrespectful judgements, open and honest. If we can't agree on this, then we will have to have a mediator present for all of our discussions.<BR>2. Our children will remain our first priority. Their welfare is to be considered above both of our personal needs and we must reach decisions that will be in their best interests regardless of our needs.<BR>3. If a discussion becomes to emotional or angry, either of us has the right to stop the discussion, back off and reschedule in a reasonable amount of time (48 hours).<BR> You can take it further than this...If I had done something like this when I divorced 12 years ago, I think eventually we could have been "friendly" and more effective parents.<BR>What do you think? Will something like this work for you? I also like the idea, because it gives you boundaries also that allow you to have self-respect.<BR>T

I would like to throw my two cents in, as my W(WS) told me the exact same things when A was going on. It hurts so much, but I think mrsaxxeman is right on the mark. It seems like you have to translate every phoney baloney thing that comes out of WS mouth when A is still going. To try and decipher things like "i see you as a friend", in a logical sense, is a losing battle. There is nothing logical about it and you may drive yourself insane thinking in those terms. The fact is, for most WS, they NEVER did think this whole thing through, and because of that, they acted before considering the ramification of NOT having you in their life at all. I do think it is good to make them aware that you can and will move on if they do not wake up, take responsibility for the A, and make decisions knowing that the A will destroy not only the marriage, but any chance of them having you in their life at all.

I guess my take on this is not much different than most of you. When my W decided that she wanted a divorce, she used the same lines most of you have heard. "I love you, but am not in love with you" and "but we can be friends". After months of growing, thinking and reflecting on what it is that I want, and not considering what she wants, I came up with what I think is in my best interest. <P>If someone other than my wife, had stabbed me in the back like she did, then I would have terminated the friendship immediately. Wouldn't even want to be around them. Who needs that crap??? Well I guess it really isn't any different. I loved the person that she was, and highly dislike the person that she has become. Do I want someone that lies, cheats, doesn't care about others and is totally inconsiderate as a friend? No way.<P>She seems to think that I will get over this and once the divorce goes through, with time I will come to see her as a friend. I don't think so. We have two children together, that are just wonderful, without her I would not have them in my life. Now, because of her, i will only have them half of the time. <P>She claims that I should treat her with respect. I told her the other day that respect is earned, not just handed out lightly. I don't respect what she and her boytoy have done, I don't respect the devastation that they have imposed on two families, and I certainly don't respect her lack of honesty. So like I told her...when you earn my respect, I will give it to you. <P>I think that most WS want to remain friends because it relieves some of the guilt that they carry around with them. It is almost like saying OK if you are my friend now, then you must think that what I am doing is OK. Not true...I think what you are doing sucks, can't condone it, and don't want to be around or have anything to do with you except try to raise our kids in the best way possible under these frightful conditions. I can't be friends with her. For those of you who have done that..god bless you, it musty have been a very hard thing to get to that point. You have my utmost admiration!<P>Mike

Dear Twyla, Johnny B and Mike,<P>Thanks for your responses. <P>Twyla,<BR>Your suggestion is a good one. I did something similar in my no contact e-mail to H. I did not put it as clearly as you did about the cooling off time. H has a bad habit (he picked this up from OW) of running off at the mouth and then having to apologize a day or two later. I find that very difficult in conducting business. I will certainly include your suggestion in our meeting tonight. <BR> ************************************<BR>Johnny B,<BR>You are absolutely right about the insane ride they take us on. Guess what? When I make decisions or take action based on what he is telling me (I want you, I don't want you, I'm coming home, I'm not coming home etc.), H blame my for wavering and sending him mixed signals. <P>Then when I don't send 'mixed signals', he says I don't care. I just don't get it and from what you have said, neither do they (WS). I am going to take the high road on this and just go forward with what I know best. <P>I wonder is this A. disease airborne? Sure would like to find the vaccination for it and give H a double shot. <P> ************************************<P>Mike,<P>You are so kind to write to me. I know this is going to be a hard day for you and wanted to let you know that I am pulling for you. I will look for your post to see how you are doing. <P>I do feel like what you have described. Oh it hurts. It is like walking down a step plank with your hands tied behind your back, blindfolded. I get so unsure of myself at times and need to come here to get a good dosage of reality checking so that I can make it through the day. <P>We will be here for each other through good times and bad. Please take care, we are all pulling for you. <P>Your friend,<BR>L.<P>

Mike, you are right and when I went through my divorce almost 12 years ago I lost any respect or friendship with my ex. Do I respect my ex today..No, he is still a _____ (feel free to fill in whatever.) Did he want to be friends? Oh yes..that would have made things extremely easy for him and lady love. Was I, am I...no! I still cringe when ever I answer the phone and hear his voice. The only thing I wish, is that we could have had some sort of civility..would have been easier raising the kids. This is why I really recommend mediation even after the divorce. As it is..he's nothing more than a sperm donor and a child support check<BR>T