D told me that H said he had no intentions of a reconciliation. Perceptive, she is. What she says now is that it was not a quote, but that is what she surmised. Actually said that he did not want me to think that going to her wedding was going to be a reconciliation attempt.<P>Is there a difference? I think so. To me it means he has still not made up his mind. <P>Is this better?<P>Love and prayers to all.

Whatami,<P> They really don't give you much hope anyway,so in my opinion it doesn't matter.<P> They think they have the world by the b&%^$ right now.They are cocky, indifferent, seem so happy, act like it is the biggest and best thing that ever came along. They treat you like pond scum, you never mattered anyway. If you help in the business, you didn't do good enough. In fact you never did anything right, by them. If they are Christians, like my H, and you bring that up,they mention Gods forgiveness. They lost their mind!!!!!!!! My H was probably acting like her, and if he was she is nasty!!!! <P> So if he is acting like that, and she is nasty, in my book they deserve each other. In my H "FOG" I let him know, look out for what you ask for. You might just get it. He did.<P> You just keep praying hon. All you can do!!! Do your self a favor. Don't talk to him. It hurts and its harder to get over if you listen to them.<P> What is he really like? Is he being himself? How long has this been going on? My H is 53. Is he about the same age?<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Dear Deb,<BR>Close enough. Will be 55 soon. H is in some NewAge type religion. You know ... the kind that says to do whatever pleases YOU.<P>But don't you think he is being so kind by not wanting to give me any "false hopes". What a gem, huh?<P>Actually the only compliments I have ever recieved were about my bkkpng abilities and a good cook. Certainly the type of kudo's that every wife wants to hear. Of course, everything else I am or did was not up to his 'standards?'. Thank God, or I would be having an A too.<P>What is he really like? <BR>1. He has been charming, sensitive, kind, supportive in crisis times and just a lovable type. <BR>2. Then there is the "pond scum" treatment.<P>From D day(11/1/00) up until 3/10/01, he was a number 1, although his head was totally with his EA in the cloud of ego stroking OW. Constant E mails and phone calls (OW thousand miles away) until 3/1 weekend with OW, now PA. He was still a #1 when he returned. Suddenly, 3/10, total attitude shift to a #2. Seemed to descend from Cloud 9 to earth quickly. Doesn't have that dreamy look anymore. Something happened, but he is still planning to spend summer with family who live near OW and to spend time with OW. <P>For years however, before A, he had been more of a #2.<BR>I am still plan Aing. Think it is throwing him a little off balance. Think it would make him feel justified about this mess if I didn't talk to him. Why should I give him that? I feel that I am being the better person and it helps me feel better about myself.<P>Your anger and resentment reflect mine. These WS's are self-centered, selfish, and not worth our love. All our hopes, plans, and dreams have been ignored. But it was part of OUR life, not just mine. To the WS in MLC, the only thing that is important are HIS plans. Guess you're about the same age as us. What a bummer at this stage of our lives. <P>The only plans that count are God's. God is just. God loves marriage and hates adultery. So difficult for us to be so helpless. With God on our side, who can be against us. <P>Keep the faith Deb, the ride is still in progress and WE are going to be the winners. (Sounds good, can't always convince myself)<BR>Will continue to pray for us all.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by whatami (edited March 28, 2001).]

Hi,<P> My H is home. I was just referring to how he acted in his "fog". <P> Just to let you know. There is hope after all. I have a "new" H. Nicer than the "old" one. My H OW lives abot 900 miles away. He did not get to spend that much "quality" time with her either. To bad, he would not have liked her a lot more quickly if he had.<P> Do you have to see him every day?? Maybe you should take a vacation now? Get away by yourself. Don't take a phone, don't tell him were you are at. Don't talk to him for a week or so. I bet he will wonder just were in the H&^% you are? If he is anything like my H, he would certainly wonder. My H likes complete control. The "old" one did.<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Thanks Deb,<BR>Guess you were very much in the same situation. What a wonerful gift ... your M back on track, no... even better to be back on a new track. Did you do something exceptional or did you just keep hanging in there? Which is very exceptional.<P>As WH has said, he needs the time to get to know her. The miles are a problem. Yes, yes,. I plan to take a cruise. Know the problem is, I cannot enter into a new friendship while I am still married. Want to find a person who "loves me". But will not be the doormat I was in the past. He is a person who needs to be in control. From my readings, so does OW. <P>Thanks Hon, this is a ride. But this ones for ME. (After I get through the pain) <P>Love and prayers for your total recovery.<P>

My GOD Woman,<P> You are married to my Husband!!!! His OW likes to control, also. So sit back and enjoy the ride. They will kill each other!!!! Two control freaks together, it is hilarious!!! To bad my H didn't get with his counterpart, I might have enjoyed the action!!!!!<P> I meant a pretend "friend" like set up date. I am a doormat (kind of) also. But I do manage to get my rights back eventually. Really, ask your H if you can have a friend too. I asked mine and he said IT DEPENDS. Now I just bet your H does not want you acting like his OW. Who wants a cheat for a wife??? Is his OW married?<P>------------------<BR>Deb

HI,<P> You can plant a few seeds of discontent, knowing that they are two control freaks. And as we know first hand, they hate someone telling them what to do, right?<P> Maybe you could ask him things like. Will she allow you to(whatever)? or It is so good of her to allow you to go to our daughters wedding?? Are you sure she won't mind??<P> I played the game quite a bit with my H. I pretended it did not bother me. (sometimes) When I was going to move away. (his idea) I told him I will never speak to him again.<BR>(i would not have) He was upset by that. I laughed when he told me others thought she was a contolling person, but he didn't. That is because he is one himself, and he doesn't think he is either. That is why they had such a perfect understanding of each other.<P> Does he tell you how wonderful she is?? Mine did! He even said I would like her. I said no, I don't think I would like someone cheating with my H. In fact she was cheating on her own Live in. She is really a peice of work!<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Guess we're on line at the same time. Deb, thanks for the laugh... and I thought I was serious. Enough of that. Must admit that I often chuckle because of his total lack of perspective. He's a user, and so is she. <P> OW (so I have been told) is in a common law marriage for 13 years. Reason, is the 13 year old D. According to OW and my H, her H and her have not had a relationship for 10 years... she thinks he has been having an A. She says her H is trying to ignore her whole A situation. She tells my H that her H and D are fine with her A. (Aren't these abbreviations great?).<P>Do you think that her H is having an affair because he cannot tolerate her? Strange, she says she is so wonderful. Her H must be a madman.<P>H generally knows if I am here or not. Buisness is here, and he needs to be around. Disappear. He does, so why shouldn't I.<P>Even when I'm ready to give up, I stop. What would I do for enterainment? They really are pathetic. My life is still in turmoil, yet people like you have created such a bright spot.<BR> <BR>Love to you and yours. You have taken a terrible day and made it amusing. Thanks.<P>

NO WAY,<P> Now I know for sure. You have my OLD H, and you can keep him. My H OW has a 13 year relationship going herself!!! She even cheated with him for 3 years, then he left his family for her. She was using him for her position in the CO. She slept her way to VICE PRESIDENT. Now how does she pay the man back, she sneaks around with my H. She was using my H, too. But he was also using her!! My old H was a user, just like yours. Aren't they precious!!!! <P> We are having parallel A. Well my H is home. So as you can see, their is hope. No way are those two ever going to make it!!!!!! My H hates disloyalty. Makes no sense I know, but he was in the "fog" and they don't make any sense whatsoever. I also got the I don't want to give you any false hope speech myself. But they really want to give you some. Keeps them in control that way. In case they change there mind. Are you getting any mixed signals, yet? I am having a great time with you. It is just so uncanny!!<P> I also do the bookeeping.<P><P>------------------<BR>Deb

Parralels? How about this one. Hs OW is in her commonlaw marriage with a well to do man who owns his own business. You don't suppose that had anything to do with her latching on to him, do you? Her and D love their shopping and spend lots of time and money at it. Another (in OWs words) "look forward to" for my H. Our money is tied up in property, and with the way the economy is going, it will not be liquid for some time to come. <P>Mixed signals. Does that correlate with what he tells me, what he tells her, and what he tells his family. He doesn't tell me much of anything anymore. When he does, it is usually an attempt to keep things smooth. Seems to want me to think that he is still not sure what he wants to do. Tells family and friends that he hopes, in time, they will accept OW. In time? What's up with that?<P>Maybe I should ask him if attending the wedding might upset his OW and express my sympathy if it does. <P>You really got the "false hopes" speech. Is there an adulterers handbook of phrases that they read or does it just come naturally to these foggy people? <P>Is your H's A still ongoing? I, too, am enjoying the conversations. If you are in recovery, I hope this doesn't affect you by reviving distinclty unpleasant mememories.<P>BTW, PLEASE give your old H to someone else, NOT ME. How about sending him to my H's OW. Now there's a plan.

Hello!!<P> My H never told his family. Big secret. He is embarrased, feel stupid, very remorsfull, the "devil'got him. He was finished with all contact in NOV, the devil must have found your H to hang out with!!<P> Is this funny?? our DD was in March of last year and all contact ended in Nov. <P> Is your H a Christian man? Mine is, thank God!!! Have you read Claritys post. That is really how it is!!<P> My D is a WS right now!! She left her H and 3 babies for a 21 year old loser!!! She is 25. My DIL also had an A last year, too. but hers was the fast ones, lucky Son.!! All of the above WS are born again Christians, so that is why I say the devil got them, because I believe it to be true. I prayed for my H. He did not get any SEX from her, she was interested in money and power. We have neither. We are just you average self employed people. It is really stupid!!<P> It hurts like h*%^, I try to remain humorous. Because what they say is so unbeleivably stuipid, you just have to laugh!! My H is a good guy, but I think he was acting like her during the A. Arrogant, selfish, all the usual.<P> My H waffled quite a bit. In his head he knew it was wrong, but his heart was telling him something else. Head was God, heart was devil. Sound funny??<P> I am a few years younger than my H, 48, so I am a bit of rebel. You know those children of the 60's.<P> I don't know what she wants with your H?? Does her H really know about this?? By this summer it might be over anyway. Pray Pray Pray<P> Lots of hugs and PRAYERS!!!<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Deb, <BR>My H is one of the new age hippies. Raised with God, yet it did not suit his intended life style. So... Goodbye God.<P>Think it will be over by the end of summer. Right now I don't really care. Must get on with MY life.<P>OW wants with my H what she is lacking in her marriage. GUESS WHAT? He is not capable of that love and affection, or to a commitment. She denies, of course, that money is a consideration. At the start of the A, they both told each other how financially well off they were. Reality may be setting in. Incomprensible word "reality". <P>She says her H knows, but then I don't really think he does. But who am I to say, she is so trustworthy. Give me a break. <P>Thanks for helping me regain my sense of humor. A bkkprs curse is having to spend so much time alone.<P>Will pray for you and yours. This A thing is so cruel. Hope your children will come around to realize how much they hurt themselves and those they love.<P><BR>Hugs and prayers to you also.<P>

Hi Whatami and bnbsdbG.<P>I just read through your conversation.<P>Whem my H called last Sunday, he told me "this is reality"<BR>All I could do was to laugh and cry (to myself). Yes, sure, H, you think you are in "reality". Oh, Lord, how can a BS penetrate the fog of a crazy person? <P>They have their own 'SELF-INDULGENT' SELFISH CRUEL PERSPECTIVE OF THEM SELVES AND THEIR NEWLY CREATED WORLD.<P>And when I asked him if the ow's daughter lived in that place where he is committing adultery, he answered: Oh, she lives with her. I said: and you don't see that you are housing someone's elses child and you don't see your own children and pay for them(defied court child support for 6 months and only agreed to give the employer when they <BR>threatened with revoking his drivers license). Told him his children are devastated--DID NOT PHASE HIM. tHAT IS UNBELIEVABLE..<P>Now, he tells me he will have the CS judgment lowered to 0!<BR>Unbelievabble. <P>When the OW becomes human, then the fog might lift.<BR>When the real life situations become too much for the buffered world of the two passionate lovers, the affair could very well begin to die.<P>In my case, affair one year old. H has filed and stopped d. two times. I have a horrible gut feeling he is about to do it again--AND I HIGHLY SUSPECT THAT THE OW IS BEHIND IT TO A LARGE EXTENT. Of course, she has married and divorec 3x, so wouldn't he be headed into a wonderful and healthy <BR>direction, ie he decides to dissolve our marriage.<P>Alcohol is one of their hobbies; her other hobby is leeching onto other woman's husbands and using them for all she can. Now, she has a roof over her head and a phone to call all the ex-husbands and ex-inlaws who wouldn't have anything to do with her when she was in jail in 11/99; and then a cousin here invited her to come live her. She was in jail for DWI conviction (second). A barmaid here and My H met her and they were off. His truck/wreck/drunk/drugs for her/she filed a bodily injury lawsuit/25,000 and they were off//in fact one year tomorrow he left-premeditatively.<P>Hidden money and all; alcohol, money, and sex.<BR>Yes, he is in reality-the reality of insanity and craziness.<P>And me and my three children live in the "FAntasy: world of pain, hurt, no money, foreclosure, bankruptcy, and may be d. Unbelievable, so this is fantasty to me.<P>I will tell you both later about an article I read about Abandoners and Abandonees.<P>elo<BR>

Hi sweet pained ladies,<P> This is heartbreaking. It hurts so bad when your H has total disregard for your welfare, health, you feel like they wish you would do them a favor and just drop dead.<P> We have been M for 20 years. He is back but the feelings do not go away. I am so insecure, terrified, depressed, and feel like I am with him on a default. OW turned my H down. They had a Mya 5th date, for OW to decide if she wanted to dump her man and take up with mine. Isn't that precious. I had no choice no say whatsover. He watched me do all the crying, devestation, shocked, he kept it up until she said no!!!<P> Then he was in withdrawl and they kept in contact, more sneaking until Late Oct. last year. It feels as she got her chance and many many more. until i called IT. <P> Sometimes I think "suicide" is my answer. I have never felt like that in my life. Even after my 1st H died, even after anything badly in my life happened. I still have a hard time even believing it even happened. He was away from home for 6 weeks straight that is how it began. It was a job he was working on. So hang in there, Pray. Good for you Whatami, I fought like He*^ to keep my pride and dignity. That is another thing you lose, along with joy.<P> Unfortunately I have discovered I can't run away from this. i think of getting in my car and keep going, or get a D, but those above feelings are going to come with me. I lost my mind!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Deb

elo,<P>The OW sounds like a real gem. And of course she is doing her very best to influence your H into a D for you. Drugs, alcohol, affairs, marriage and children are expensive of course. So the WH will have to choose the top priorities for HIM and so he chooses to drop the last two and concentrate on the top of the list. His actual reality is the M and children, but fantasy land has bigger draw. So it's off to the land of Oz. <P>Deb's H seems to have returned to the land of the living. Someday, ours will also. In the meantime … we will have to get our act together. History has become our enemy. I ask myself if I had met H for the first time, now, is this a man I would want to marry? A man who abandoned his wife and children for an OW. He doesn't really come up to my standards.<BR>If your H thinks he can bring his CS down to $0, he really is in fantasy land.<P>Don't know if this will help, but … my exH and I had a fun relationship until we got married. After the M, it was only he that continued to go out, stay out late, and generally he neglected me and children. My self esteem, self confidence and self image slowly began to crumble. (BTW, I never thought that he had any A's, but he probably did). When I looked at my two young children, I knew that I had to leave him for their sake. They were the love of my life and always would be. I was frightened but I did it. The seven years of raising my children were the most rewarding, wonderful years of my life. I have never regretted my decision. It was best for all of us. I began to see myself through the eyes of my children. My D still says I am her hero. God bless her. I was very fortunate to have parents that helped me financially and with child care until I could support my family. It was a couple years before I could do this, but with the help of God, I did it. <P>I hope that you have a family that will help you through this. You have all the prayers and support of the people here. <P>

Dear Deb,<P>PLEASE, don't do them any favors. Like they are worth it? Don't think of yourself as the "winner?" by default. Think of your H, going through the same pain of rejection that you did. I do wonder whether it is love we feel for our partner that devastates us, or is it simply the fact that someone we devoted ourselves to REJECTED us. Same goes for your H. Maybe it wasn't that he was so in love with OW as it was the rejection. Sure does crush the old ego, doesn't it. We know that for sure.<P>Here we go again. H was visiting family (alone) last summer for SIX WEEKS and that is how it began. I find myself on the edge sometimes, too. You haven't lost your mind … just maybe control. Maybe you should tell H, that YOU need time to sort this out and that he should leave for awhile until YOU have made up your mind. (Doubt if many would agree with me on that). I want H to want to keep up the contact with me, so when I don't want to see him, at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I am the one in control of the situation. (am I rambling here?) <P>. It is your H who has lost pride and dignity. When you think of my situation, who do you respect the most? Me or my H. ? We can't let our emotions blind us to the truth …. Will the real jerk please stand up!<BR>Hey, don't loose that great sense of humor. <BR>H and I have to go to a closing, so I will write later.<P>Prayers and Love.<BR>

Whatami,<P> Six weeks gone too. Now I know the devil jumped from my H to yours!!! He is nasty!!! (satan)<P> I think my H probably does have my simalr feelings, brought on by himself.(thank you H!)<P> My "new" life is no longer being the doormat. No more "orders" from the chief! H doesn't even say 1 cross word to me anymore! If he is angry, he lets me Know that it is not me!!! Much kinder,more like my H I married. Just hasn't figured out "What not to say." He even see what he did wrong,I think. His A was caused by his own problems,really. <P> Your real H will see the light, you are better than OW. So he has to see the light,impossible not to compare eventually. Then he can feel like crap for putting such a good, kind, considerate, always been their for him Wife. Like mine has!!! HA HA Who gets the last laugh. WE DO.<BR>To bad it isn't funny,it should be. <P> Even though my H stupid A is over, I still "get to" go through the remaining steps of grief. I recognized them a long time ago. My 1st spouse died.<P> Shock, denial, anger, sadness, black hole depression, grief, then less severe depression and extreme exhaustion. But with this I go back to the above and keep starting over. Only less severe. You have to grieve the marriage, because it is over. You get a new one.<P> Hope you made a bundle!!! We bought a house at an auction last fall for $69,000.00 Sold for $84,000.00. We will profit about $10,000.00, not bad. For very little work we put into it. My H used to be a general contractor. He is very good at building and designing things. His "GIFT" He built our house with no blue prints, he designed it in his head. It is full, of unusual things. <P>------------------<BR>Deb

You're right, my Hs A began to get hot and heavy (emails) around the 1st of Nov. The devil made him do it. About the greiving. I do need to greive the old marriage, I don't want it back. I do want a new marriage built on mutual respect, love and adoration. I prefer it to be with the man I know my husband can be. Wish he knew that I could/would be the wife he wants. Maybe after his summer with OW (will be the only way he can see who she really is, as he thinks and so, now, do I) so we can see each other more clearly. While I imparted this thought to him, he just kept on shaking his head in agreement. <P>Big LB. Took a good chunk out of savings when first learned about A. Put in safe place. H found out and today asked where it was. He was livid. Said he trusted me and never thought I would do such a thing. Told him I was protecting us because OW was talking about building "their" house and making lots of plans, I wanted to keep "our" money safe from her demands. He claims the only time he ever breached "our" trust was just this once. BIG ONCE, huh? I put MY life savings into this venture, and I will have to tell him that I want the principal back. I will split the accumulated profits. Forgot that point in this conversation. His last words... I want you to put my name on that account. Other than that, had a decent conversation about our personal hang ups and why we are who we are. This summer will be a crucial time. God, help me to hang in there. <P>I have never exprienced the loss of a spouse to death. But you know he did not reject you ... God called him home and that is something that is acceptable. Somehow. <P>God also calls us to forgive, that means we must also forget. Take your new life and hold it with every once of your being. I pray that I will have that opportunity.<P>Love and hugs dear.

Whatami,<P> Good for you, you need to protect yourself financily.<BR>Build a new house?? Boy does he need to WAKE UP!!<P> How is everything??